Pigeon traffic

[AberdeenBill]

Hi all,

 

I was just browsing the book BR Southern Region in Colour for the Modeller and Historian (Ian Allan). Among the many interesting views is that of a 9F entering Southampton with a 21-van pigeon special. The caption notes that such trains were more common on the Somerset and Dorset and often ended up at Christchurch, parked on the stub of the old Ringwood branch. Does anybody know more about these workings: locomotives, rolling stock,

place(s) of origin, anything really...

 

Many thanks,

Bill

[Guest Phil]

Hi Bill

 

I can't comment on the S&D pigeon traffic, and I'm surprised you've not had a response given the popularity of the route.

 

From my limited knowledge Pigeon flyers used to prefer to send their birds south, in order to get them to fly "home".

 

My father in law flew pigeons for a few years, even occasionally sending them to France to fly home. Where I lived in Walsall in the 1980s there were a few local clubs that used to send a motor vehicle round to collect pigeon boxes, and this seemed to be towards the weekend. I'm only guessing but I would imagine the traffic was for the weekend hobby of the pigeon fanciers, as they'd presumably be at work Monday to Friday and would wait for their birds to return home on the Saturday or Sunday afternoon.

 

An image in my mind comes from a West Midlands book referring to a Pigeon Special, but again of no real help to you. The image is of a green GRCW diesel parcels unit hauling a BR Mk1 BG and the caption reads "Sunday July 30th 1961, 55993 restarts a southbound pigeon special having just collected baskets of birds". The location was Princes End & Coseley which was on the line from Wolverhampton Low Level to Dudley.

 

 

I know this is of no immediate help to you Bill, but my guess is pigeon traffic tended to be weekend, possibly using resources freed up from other midweek work.

 

Look forward to hearing from others.

[Penlan]

I have a couple of pre-group photo's of Pigeon Specials at Weymouth, mostly LNWR and GCR NPCS & (Pass.)Brake Vans. I don't know if they were for release in Dorset or the pigeons were to be transferred to a cross channel ferry.

 

The Specials were very popular and I'm sure somewhere I have a LNWR Circular re. the Specials.

 

Of course even now there are dedicated road going Pigeon Artic's about, I think the last one I saw was a few weeks ago on the A30 in Devon from Scotland - The rigs are very well sign written etc.

 

Penlan

[Fat Controller]

I have a couple of pre-group photo's of Pigeon Specials at Weymouth, mostly LNWR and GCR NPCS & (Pass.)Brake Vans. I don't know if they were for release in Dorset or the pigeons were to be transferred to a cross channel ferry.

 

The Specials were very popular and I'm sure somewhere I have a LNWR Circular re. the Specials.

 

Of course even now there are dedicated road going Pigeon Artic's about, I think the last one I saw was a few weeks ago on the A30 in Devon from Scotland - The rigs are very well sign written etc.

 

Penlan

Apart from the block trains of pigeons, there was quite a traffic in small numbers of wicker baskets carried in passenger train vans, then released at an agreed time by one of the station staff- Llanelli used to get these, normally on one of the Central Wales units, into the 1970s.

I've seen some of the UK pigeon-fanciers artics quite some distance into France in recent times. I'm trying to remember the wording on the side- it was something quite archaic-sounding.

['CHARD]

In my peculiar fiction for Lessismore (RMWeb3 refers), I intend pigeon specials and seasonal asparagus traffic on the branch. The latter need not concern us, but in 1968's fancying season would I be looking at a Syphon G, Fruit D, Southern van of some description, or a really nice plain vanilla Blue & Grey BG, the last of which would give a very tasty single-vehicle train behind a Type 2.

[The Stationmaster]

In my peculiar fiction for Lessismore (RMWeb3 refers), I intend pigeon specials and seasonal asparagus traffic on the branch. The latter need not concern us, but in 1968's fancying season would I be looking at a Syphon G, Fruit D, Southern van of some description, or a really nice plain vanilla Blue & Grey BG, the last of which would give a very tasty single-vehicle train behind a Type 2.

 

You might be better off with bogie vans but then I suppose the pigeons weren't too worried about a slower journey although they might not have liked the ride

 

I only ever came across the small releases - 2 or 3 baskets out of the Guards van, let 'em out when things were quiet and carefully note the release time/date on the label then return the baskets on the next available. There were strict instructions about looking after the birds and also about release and I've always wondered how the latter were implemented where large numbers of baskets/birds were released as they were not supposed to be set off close together. And don't ever release them near overhead telegraph wires - one thing you never forget.

['CHARD]

They won't like the ride over some of my track

 

I'm singling out a couple of bogie vans for this which might help reduce the burden of otherwise pooled parcels stock on the layout - and this after a sustained campaign of thinning-out since October

 

I remember the pigeon pick-up outside the in-laws' pub in the last fifteen years; in this particular Brummie cameo, the baby Sulzer and BG were played by a Mercedes LWB white van! Joking apart, and back to the OP, I'm determined to do a bit of extra research now, especially on typical Scottish pigeon vans...

[geoffers]

There were occasional pigeon specials down the Somerset and Dorset. Ivo has taken photos of them (one I believe was a 16-bogie coach train - must have been a big race!) More often the pigeons were in wicker baskets and were released at specified stations. I think Templecombe was a favoured station.

[Poor Old Bruce]

I don't know if this will be of any help but I remember (in the dim and distant past) "cabbing" a Pig at Notts Vic one evening while two V2s stopped in the station (for crew change or water - or both) with northbound pigeon specials (or empties). I have no idea what the stock was apart from being bogie vehicles but what did stick in my memory was that neither engine could restart its train without the drivers having to wind into reverse and ease back before trying forward again. One having to do it three times before managing to get away!

 

Richard

[Ravenser]

The LNER had considerable pidgeon traffic I believe , probably from South Yorkshire/the North East , and had specially fitted vans . Harris' LNER Coaches lists standard Gresley 61'6 full brakes as being classed either as BG or BGP - the P standing for pidgeon. There were also some nongangwayed 51' vans fitted with shelving for pidegons (dia 129) and there is also the 4 wheeled van , for which Chivas produce a kit - commonly called a "pidgeon van" although I remember there was some controversy about whether this was the original intention and normal use.

 

I think Pete Waterman has a pidgeon train on his Leamington layout and wrote up some coaches in one of the mags , possibly BRM. I remember an LNEr van or two featured , so taking previous comments, it sounds as if the GC route from S. Yorks to Woodford Halse and Banbury may have carried significant amounts of pidgeon traffic , and even pidgeon specials.

 

LNER specialists may be able to comment further, but you'd be looking at kits for these vehicles

[RonnieS]

Hi

Just found this and it came the day after I found my 11 vehicle pigeon train is wrong! I had made the same assumptions as above by using a mixture of gangwayed and none gangwayed bogie vans plus the Chivers pigeon van. WRONG! The formations were all gangwayed vehicles and a typical formation is:-

 

van/van/van/van/bsk/bsk/van/van/van

 

the bsks contain the club (or federation) members who move through the gangways constantly tending/feeding/watering their beloved birds. Upon reaching the destination they released the winged creatures according to rules I cannot understand.

 

I can only think the Chivers van was not used for pigeons or maybe for short haul only? A popular route was Wolverhampton/Bournemouth and you can imagine just how long that took! Other popular routes were North East and North West towns to Bath so again a hellish long trip for the birdies. Of course a lot got lost flying home and their descendants can be seen today all over the UK....usually when you have just washed your car.

[Fat Controller]

Whilst 'block trains' of pigeons would perhaps have had full-time escorts, the ones I remember seeing would arrive in the brake van of an ordinary passenger train, sometimes even a DMU. A member of the station staff would release them, and record this time for the pigeon fanciers back at the 'crees'. Some routes, even today, involve remarkably long distances- I've seen lorries from the north of the UK in Belgium and France. The birds wouldn't be fed or watered before release, or they'd not bother trying to get back home.

[Clive Mortimore]

I can recall pigeons being released from Bedford Midland Road station in the 60s. Their baskets would be taken off the train and placed on a platform trolley. They would be wheeled up to the north end of platform 4 and released. It was for a young boy quite a sight to see all these birds take off together.

 

As for Brian mentioning about not feeding them because they would not fly home, a few years ago a racing pigeon decided to take a break and stay in our garden. I rang the Royal Pigeon Fanciers whatsit and was told not to feed it as it soon leave and go home. So I removed all the bird feeders from the garden. He left our garden and made his new home in a neighbour’s garden until I told her what I had been told. I wonder how many gardens it took up temporary residence in before getting home?

 

Yours

 

Clive

[Fat Controller]

I can recall pigeons being released from Bedford Midland Road station in the 60s. Their baskets would be taken off the train and placed on a platform trolley. They would be wheeled up to the north end of platform 4 and released. It was for a young boy quite a sight to see all these birds take off together.

 

As for Brian mentioning about not feeding them because they would not fly home, a few years ago a racing pigeon decided to take a break and stay in our garden. I rang the Royal Pigeon Fanciers whatsit and was told not to feed it as it soon leave and go home. So I removed all the bird feeders from the garden. He left our garden and made his new home in a neighbour’s garden until I told her what I had been told. I wonder how many gardens it took up temporary residence in before getting home?

 

Yours

 

Clive

Good to see you about again, Clive. My gran 'adopted' one, by the simple expedient of sharing her toast with it- in my mother's conservatory. I was surprised that the number we contacted (it was on the ring on the bird's leg) was in Cheltenham, and not in Somewhere-on-Wear.

[RonnieS]

Whilst 'block trains' of pigeons would perhaps have had full-time escorts, the ones I remember seeing would arrive in the brake van of an ordinary passenger train, sometimes even a DMU. A member of the station staff would release them, and record this time for the pigeon fanciers back at the 'crees'. Some routes, even today, involve remarkably long distances- I've seen lorries from the north of the UK in Belgium and France. The birds wouldn't be fed or watered before release, or they'd not bother trying to get back home.

 

I based my comments on an article in the RAILWAY WORLD April 1964. (I don't know if I could copy and post it here?) It certainly opened my eyes and now I can get my train nearer to the prototype long haul ones. They did feed/water/ tend birds in transit; see:-

 

 

PIGEON DERBY - British Pathé

 

www.britishpathe.com/video/pigeon-derby/query/01304500

[Leander]

I'm not sure whether 'pigeon specials' always ran as block trains. A photo in the latest Rowsley Association booklet on Hassop (just north of Bakewell on the 'Peak Line' shows two ex-LMS BGs stabled awaiting an evening departure on the Bakewell-Derby pigeon special. At Derby they would be attached to a train destined for the south of England, presumably made up of pigeon vans from other departure points.

 

The ex-LMS BGs are interesting in that one is a period 1 vehicle with a centrally positioned ducket (as was the norm) whilst the other is a conversion from one of the period 1 BSKs that was in ambulance train usage in WW2.

 

AFAIA the LMS/BR(LMR) didn't have specially designated BGPs with racking to carry the pigeon baskets as did the LNER.

[queensquare]

Only just discovered this thread. I'd like to run a pigeon special on Bath as I'm rather fond of NPCS and this would be a great excuse for a motley collection.

Penlan, I would love to see your pregroup pictures of pigeon specials at Weymouth - they would almost certainly have come down over the Dorset, via Bath.

Attached is a newspaper clipping showing the release of birds in Bath goods yard in the 1930's.

 

 

Jerry

[RonnieS]

As there seems to be an interest I include part of the article that I mentioned earlier. As as been mentioned by many the trains varied from short haul of one basket to long haul. This is the long haul train I wish to model for Standish. My collection of Trains Illustrated mentions time after time suprise (loco) visitors to the Bristol area on pigeon specials. On one occasion no less than 9 pigeon specials were recorded at Filton. In the photographs the formations all seem similar to the one following

[queensquare]

Thats a useful article Ronnie. The Frome train would have gone over the Bristol and North Somerset, I presume the Bath train would have gone to Green Park via Mangotsfield. Like you, there were alsorts of exotic (for Bath GP) sightings of locos on these specials.

 

Jerry

 

ps. did you get my pm?

[Xerces Fobe2]

I can remember seeing fully loaded pigeon baskets on the platform at Carpenders Park station in the 1960's and them being loading in to the gaurds compartments of Class 501 EMU's

 

XF

[RonnieS]

Thats a useful article Ronnie. The Frome train would have gone over the Bristol and North Somerset, I presume the Bath train would have gone to Green Park via Mangotsfield. Like you, there were alsorts of exotic (for Bath GP) sightings of locos on these specials.

 

Jerry

 

ps. did you get my pm?

 

Hi Jerry

 

I am glad some one else liked the article. I don't know about the route but it is possible that it could have turned right at Yate. Thence Coalpit Heath/Winterbourne/Filton through Horfield and divided up at Lawrence Hill or Dr Days for Bath Spa/Frome. We will never know. Many specials and extras went through Horfield as it was on the relief lines. Often we have noted that you might get a (say) Sheffield-Bristol through on the Midland route you mention but it's relief would come via Filton. In truth a pigeon (or any other) special would use any path available and the GWR route was 4 track so it was a 2:1 chance. All I can say is at least some of the pigeon specials were recorded in the Trains Illustrated as using our line.

 

I am not sure what you mean re a pm?

 

Regards

RonnieS

[queensquare]

Hi Ronnie, as you say they could have gone either way to Bath - I think we both have enough evidence to run one! I'd be interested in more details of the ones that went to Frome as its very local to me. I assumed they went over the B&NS but I suppose they could just as easily gone via Westbury.

 

A pm is a personal message. I sent one a few days ago regarding your layout, Horfield. You can access them by clicking on the little envelope in the top right corner of your homepage.

 

Regards Jerry

[jwealleans]

Some additional information here.

[Bob O]

I based my comments on an article in the RAILWAY WORLD April 1964. (I don't know if I could copy and post it here?) It certainly opened my eyes and now I can get my train nearer to the prototype long haul ones. They did feed/water/ tend birds in transit; see:-

 

 

PIGEON DERBY - British Pathé

 

www.britishpathe.com/video/pigeon-derby/query/01304500

WOW thats proof. Pigeons were an enormously popular hobby back in the day. The guys thought the world of them and would not have left them go without water and food for long.

[RonnieS]

WOW thats proof. Pigeons were an enormously popular hobby back in the day. The guys thought the world of them and would not have left them go without water and food for long.

 

 

To be fair to the other contributors this was a big race. Up to 40,000 birds! An earlier race here.

MARATHON PIGEON RACE - British Pathé

www.britishpathe.com/video/marathon-pigeon-race/query/One

 

Other races were not on this scale and of course a lot of the trains mentioned carried just a few birds that were going on a short distance training flight. Incidentally; this site is a good one to search for railway info on obscure stuff.