Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Northroader]

That’s the trouble with having everything set in Wales, people start talking, isn’t it? I make sure my stationmasters are kept well away from each other, that way they don’t start carping on their particular bit of territory’s lack of progress. Still, I’m sure it will all turn out for the best, and a very enjoyable conversation to eavesdrop on.

[Edwardian]

That’s the trouble with having everything set in Wales, people start talking, isn’t it? I make sure my stationmasters are kept well away from each other, that way they don’t start carping on their particular bit of territory’s lack of progress. Still, I’m sure it will all turn out for the best, and a very enjoyable conversation to eavesdrop on.

 

I don't know, Norfolk parishioners are also pretty vocal about their railway's lack of progress.

 

(and quite right they are too!)

 

But Chris, I enjoyed that little conversational vignette, it was good to see the wee rolling stock, and that is cracking work on the stone station.

[corneliuslundie]

And change the names and places and I fear we could all adapt the script!

A loco still hardly started, a station building with no roof, hardly any track laid for Nantcwmdu, still not finished the ground frame for Sarn etc etc etc. But as they say it is better to travel hopefully than to arrive, or something like that.

Or to quote St David (I am sure he must hav said other things but i have never come across anything else): Look after the little things.

I was reminded of your figure painting on Monday at the dentist.

The young male receptionist saw my "Newtown Model Railway Society" jacket and showed me photos of some of his war game figures. I thought your painting was unbeatable in quality but - his is unbelievable. One 25 mm figure of a woman warrior had one leg bare, with the different shading for the knee and the muscles clearly delineated. I wouldn't be able to see it unless it was blown up to ten times real size.

If I can aspire to somewhere near your standard I shall be very pleased.

And don't worry about that missing station roof. it only rains every other day in mid Wales.

Jonathan

[MikeOxon]

Chris, that's a most interesting report and I have enjoyed looking.

It makes things even more difficult when the contractor flits around in time as well as space    I tried to explain to Blanche, in North Leigh, that I had been kept busy for the last few months working on the valve gear of a broad-gauge engine.  She looked at me rather pitifully, realising at last that I was quite deranged, and gently tried to explain that "that old stuff all finished a year or two ago".  She went on to say that Amy (her sister) had been quite upset by it all and wanted to go to Swindon to paint some of those 'magnificent' engines in their final resting place.  Sir John firmly did not approve of such nonsense but she slipped away anyway:

 

 

I realise that this is nothing to do with Traeth Mawr but at least you've gained an Amy Wilcote original

 

Mike

 

 

[ChrisN]

I don't know, Norfolk parishioners are also pretty vocal about their railway's lack of progress.

 

(and quite right they are too!)

 

But Chris, I enjoyed that little conversational vignette, it was good to see the wee rolling stock, and that is cracking work on the stone station.

 

Thank you.  I think the rolling stock is nearly finished except for couplings and people.  The station I think is the Ratio kit of Shepton Mallet, (Definitely Shepton Mallet), and I just followed the instructions and it worked!  I was quite chuffed.  I began to do the insides and divide it up and then thought that if I could scratch build the inside I could do the outside as well so moved onto the cottage, which has not progressed in ages.

[ChrisN]

And change the names and places and I fear we could all adapt the script!

A loco still hardly started, a station building with no roof, hardly any track laid for Nantcwmdu, still not finished the ground frame for Sarn etc etc etc. But as they say it is better to travel hopefully than to arrive, or something like that.

Or to quote St David (I am sure he must hav said other things but i have never come across anything else): Look after the little things.

I was reminded of your figure painting on Monday at the dentist.

The young male receptionist saw my "Newtown Model Railway Society" jacket and showed me photos of some of his war game figures. I thought your painting was unbeatable in quality but - his is unbelievable. One 25 mm figure of a woman warrior had one leg bare, with the different shading for the knee and the muscles clearly delineated. I wouldn't be able to see it unless it was blown up to ten times real size.

If I can aspire to somewhere near your standard I shall be very pleased.

And don't worry about that missing station roof. it only rains every other day in mid Wales.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I do get frustrated about lack of progress and then start something new!  I really must discipline myself but there are some scratch build coaches I really want to do, then I need to learn to solder and do my brass coaches.  Two locos  wait to be built and I keep toying with the idea of a scratch built Volunteer class.  If I could find an R-T-R chassis of 7' 3" and 6' 9" I might have a go.  The tender I think is the same as the Albions and there is a 3D print of it.

 

You are too kind about my figure painting as there others even in 4mm much better than me.  War gamers though, especially at the larger size are quite incredible.  Was it 25 or 28mm?  28mm are quite large and it has always annoyed me, or it did before the Stadden figures, that you could get Victorian figures in 28mm but not in 4mm/ft.

 

The doors are open in the station so the water can always be swept out.

[ChrisN]

Chris, that's a most interesting report and I have enjoyed looking.

It makes things even more difficult when the contractor flits around in time as well as space    I tried to explain to Blanche, in North Leigh, that I had been kept busy for the last few months working on the valve gear of a broad-gauge engine.  She looked at me rather pitifully, realising at last that I was quite deranged, and gently tried to explain that "that old stuff all finished a year or two ago".  She went on to say that Amy (her sister) had been quite upset by it all and wanted to go to Swindon to paint some of those 'magnificent' engines in their final resting place.  Sir John firmly did not approve of such nonsense but she slipped away anyway:

 

SwindonDump_DAP_AW.jpg

 

I realise that this is nothing to do with Traeth Mawr but at least you've gained an Amy Wilcote original

 

Mike

 

Mike,

Yes, time and space does make it difficult.  Mr Price has never managed to work out why it is always March 1895.

 

Wow, an Amy Wilcote original!  It is not a problem that it has nothing to do with Traeth Mawr.  Swindon, I should be there with my grandson and daughter-in-law on Saturday although I doubt I will se Amy.

[uax6]

Could you not use an old triang chassis and measure off the wheelbase you want from the drive axle, and then drill the required hole? You would need to make coupling rods, but that isn't as hard as you think, as Gibson do universal ones.

 

Andy g

[MikeOxon]

 

.................If I could find an R-T-R chassis of 7' 3" and 6' 9" I might have a go ................... 

 

 

I suppose it depends on your thirst for accuracy but I would consider the chassis from a GWR 517/1400 class, with a coupled wheelbase of 7' 4". - not much of an error, when compared with the '00' gauge error.  The trailing wheels could be moved to their correct position. 

 

I think the 'Volunteer' would make a good prototype for scratch-building - I would use a length of tubing for the boiler with smokebox and firebox wrapped around it at the ends.  There are several good photos of an 0-gauge model on the web at http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/jr_locos_Loco09.html

[ChrisN]

Could you not use an old triang chassis and measure off the wheelbase you want from the drive axle, and then drill the required hole? You would need to make coupling rods, but that isn't as hard as you think, as Gibson do universal ones.

 

Andy g

 

 

 

.................If I could find an R-T-R chassis of 7' 3" and 6' 9" I might have a go ................... 

 

 

I suppose it depends on your thirst for accuracy but I would consider the chassis from a GWR 517/1400 class, with a coupled wheelbase of 7' 4". - not much of an error, when compared with the '00' gauge error.  The trailing wheels could be moved to their correct position. 

 

I think the 'Volunteer' would make a good prototype for scratch-building - I would use a length of tubing for the boiler with smokebox and firebox wrapped around it at the ends.  There are several good photos of an 0-gauge model on the web at http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/jr_locos_Loco09.html

 

 

Hi,

I may have to run if I hear Mr Price coming.  He will probably be muttering, "Not another project."

 

The Volunteer class was not very big so I need to find a suitable chassis with a small motor probably.  I have a couple of 14xx waiting to be redone as a Metro and a 517.  (Should have asked for a 517 3D for Christmas, umm.)  Driving centres 7' 3" ish with the trailing wheel at 8' 3".  I took one apart without breaking it too much, (just half a step), to find that all its weight is in the tanks and is solid with the chassis.so would be too wide.  I am at present loath to start hacking chassis about.  (There is another tank that is I think a 0-6-2 or 2-6-0 which has the right centres but again would need hacking.)  The Bachmann J72 has a wheelbase of 6' 8" + 7' so is not too far away but without seeing it may be useless.  I need to look again at the wheelbase of the Seaham tanks as that is another possibility.

 

If I wanted to drill an axle hole I would have thought that I would need a pillar drill, which I do not have.

 

I think the actual build would not be too difficult and I  am sure I could source the various fittings.  I need to check the diameter of the boiler but I have a drawing in 'A New Cambrian History' so I can get the other dimensions.  Need to go and look in my books.  Later must do some modelling.

[Northroader]

You could file a slot up from underneath with a small round file at the right spacing. Take it slightly higher than the wheel centre, as you’ll need to spring the leading axle in any case, or it will unload the coupled wheels. Then it’s just getting enough ballast in to move the centre of gravity back over the coupled wheels. If the motor is pointing over the leading axle this could help in this, but then the space is a bit limited in the boiler.

[Donw]

You could file a slot up from underneath with a small round file at the right spacing. Take it slightly higher than the wheel centre, as you’ll need to spring the leading axle in any case, or it will unload the coupled wheels. Then it’s just getting enough ballast in to move the centre of gravity back over the coupled wheels. If the motor is pointing over the leading axle this could help in this, but then the space is a bit limited in the boiler.

 

Volunteer is an 0-4-2 so I assume it would be the trailing axle you are suggesting should be sprung. 

 

Don

[Northroader]

Beg your parsnip, there’s me thinking 2-4-0, sorry. Still, same thing applies.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Northroader

[Simond]

Be a tad careful with 2-4-0s and even more so with 0-4-2s.

 

I model in 7mm, and many years back, built a Springside cast whitemetal 14xx, which has a brass chassis, with rigid drivers, and a sprung trailing axle. The weight is all to the back in this loco (small boiler, huge cab & bunker, and whitemetal is dense!) and it proceeded to run like a lame duck. Fitting pickups to the trailing axle helped it a little, but fundamentally, the weight distribution meant that the leading axle was barely loaded, and it rocked like a see-saw about the middle axle.

 

I fixed it by compensating the driving axles, and replacing the spring on the trailing axle with a fixed fulcrum, which is probably not what you want to do in 00, particularly when using a commercially available chassis.

 

I suggest that you ensure that the weight in your loco is arranged so it runs well as an 0-4-0, and then add the pony truck, and weight it just enough so it stays on, or, perhaps a very soft spring between it and the chassis.

 

HTH

Simon

[Northroader]

Agree with that, my first build was a Leinster 0-6-0T kit, next a CCW 0-6-0 chassis kit, both of which were solid frames with no compensation, which is why I never bother about it since. (God, I do miss CCW!) Both good runners, so “easy peasy” I thought, let’s make a 2-4-0 like that, so I did, with the leading axle in solid bushes in the frames. Put it on the track, and it made barely any progress running light, with wheel spin. It surprised me how much weight the lead axle was taking, so... take the lead bushes out, solder some brass sheet on outside the frames which had a vertical slot in to guide the axle, and some phosphor bronze strip inside the frames springing down on top of the axle. There is a tendency putting lead in the loco to make it nose heavy, as there’s usually space that end, but you need to keep the c.o.g. back over the drivers with a 2-4-0. Since then it’s performed a treat, good puller as well.

I have made 0-4-2 and 2-4-0 tankies with pony trucks, during my very tight radius spell (dead end) with the frames cut clear and the pony truck carrying some deadweight to hold the wheels down on the rails, but any more I’ll go back to the way described above.

So if you can find a good Four coupled chassis with the right wheelbase, you just need a slot at the right distance with a sprung axle riding in it, and get the weight distribution right. Stationmaster Price will say “ I knew that all along, see?”

[MikeOxon]

My old K's 14xx kit had a very simple chassis, as shown below:

 

 

It would probably be hard to find one in working condition nowadays but I built a chassis along similar lines for my GWR No.184

 

I think it is explained reasonably clearly, if you follow the link.  I used a Dremel mini-drill in its own stand and found it was adequate to make the aligned holes, after tack-soldering the two frames together.  It's worth reading the comments below my post, which cover matters like drilling the coupling rods at at the same time, and making sure that the drill doesn't 'snatch' when drilling brass.

 

In the K's kit, the trailing wheels were carried on a white metal spur from the body, which could be gently bent to get the correct ride height.

 

Mike

[ChrisN]

Reply to all as I am not sure I have individual answers for you.

 

The Coast line in 1895 ran Albions, which were the passenger 2-4-0 and the Queen class 0-6-0 goods which also worked passenger trains.  The Seaham tanks 2-4-0s were probably about and had run the Dolgelly branch, as had the Volunteer class 0-4-2s.  The volunteer class were on the reserve list if they had not been scrapped but I have it on good evidence that on Thursday 21st March 1895 a Volunteer was running the branch. 

 

At this time none of the 4-4-0s worked the Coast line, except for one experimental trip on, you guessed it 21st March 1895.  There are no Queen class kits except for the old Kemilway ones so any of these would have to be scratch built.  I have a Seaham tank from Coast Line Models, (Quarryscapes 3D shop), and an Albion from Sparkshot Custom Creations' Shapeways shop.  There is also a half brass half resin from Richard Evans(?) the guy who has done the Cambrian four wheel brass coaches.  So ignoring any freight traffic I will need two, if not three Albions, one Seaham and one Volunteer.  This means that any advice given about this type of loco will not be wasted.  I will try and post a picture to show an Albion next to a J15 and a 14xx to show how small it is.

 

Quarryscapes of this parish, had though of using a BullAnt motor bogie in the tender which he tried in a Kemilway Queen class but was not happy with the outcome.  This is a possibility but 1) they only have disk wheels, and 2) they are not taking orders at present.  Black Beetle motor bogies appear a possibility but like BullAnt are in Australia.  I am not sure how long the boat from the colonies takes these days. 

[Donw]

In 2mm the problems are usually solved by putting the motor in the tender with a thin wire shaft driving the worm wheel in the loco. This allows you to put some weight over the driving axles. It might be a solution in 4mm. I bought a 14xx in 7mm which had the trailing wheel free to move up and down in a slot. It had a resin body and weight distribution was a problem pulling a load it could tip backwards raising the front driving wheels causing a derailment on bends. It took a tumble to the floor which caused the resin body to break into several pieces so I never resolved the problem.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

In 2mm the problems are usually solved by putting the motor in the tender with a thin wire shaft driving the worm wheel in the loco. This allows you to put some weight over the driving axles. It might be a solution in 4mm. I bought a 14xx in 7mm which had the trailing wheel free to move up and down in a slot. It had a resin body and weight distribution was a problem pulling a load it could tip backwards raising the front driving wheels causing a derailment on bends. It took a tumble to the floor which caused the resin body to break into several pieces so I never resolved the problem.

 

Don

 

Don,

Thank you for this.  I assume if the drive shaft is from the tender then the working wheelbase of the locomotive is measured from the back tender wheel to the front non-bogied wheel on the loco?

[ChrisN]

Having set up  the locos for comparison and taken care to make sure they were all the right heights etc.yesterday, when I came to take the photos today I realised that with the curtains open to let light in that I would be taking the pictures into the light.  I hastily rearranged them but without the precision.

 

So front view,

 

 

You can see the boiler diameter is smaller than either the J15 or the 14xx.

 

Now the length,

 

 

It is a little shorter.  This is the Albion not a Volunteer but the Volunteer will not be bigger.

 

It must be possible to motorise but I doubt it a R-T-R chassis will be suitable. 

 

I have investigated the Black Beetle and the BullAnt.  Apart from the fact that the Black Beetle site says that it cannot pull the skin off the proverbial rice pudding, it is slung very low so would be unusable.  The BullAnt appears to have projections to the side which is particularly unhelpful.

 

I was hoping for an easy solution as then I could build the loco as a side project.  However without that I will probably need to build the Albion and the Class 61 to learn about motorising a loco before starting on a Volunteer.

 

If anyone has any other ideas, postcards with them on would be welcomed.

[Simond]

What about Tenshodo? Available from Roxey.

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/43/tenshodo-motor-bogies/

 

With enough weight in the tender, I would hope that it should pull a couple of coaches. I’ve no experience of them, as I model in 7mm.

 

Alternatively, build a chassis! It’s scary the first time, but really not that difficult.

 

Best

Simon

[corneliuslundie]

I am building 1196 (GWR number) very slowly and am compensating the (front) carrying axle and front drivers with a compensating beam each side. I'll let you know how it works when it is done but don't hold your breath. I am not sure of the origin of the chassis. I bought an etched chassis from Mainly Trains (no longer trading, unfortunately) but it was not designed for compensation. Tanat Valley of this parish kindly gave me some suitable etched frames. As the kit is white metal there will be plenty of weight but I am not sure it will be in the right place until I assemble it. I am using a High Level gearbox which should allow the motor to hide away without intruding in the cab or ruining the boiler. However, the advantage is that it is very narrow and so can go to one side and allow me to use split frames and split axles.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

What about Tenshodo? Available from Roxey.

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/43/tenshodo-motor-bogies/

 

With enough weight in the tender, I would hope that it should pull a couple of coaches. I’ve no experience of them, as I model in 7mm.

 

Alternatively, build a chassis! It’s scary the first time, but really not that difficult.

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon,

Thank you.

 

I did look at those.  (009 modellers use them a lot.)  I did dismiss them for several reasons, 1) the site I looked at them on made them completely incomprehensible, 2) only disk wheels, and now 3) I need 37.5 mm between the axles and these only do 35.  Should I worry?  They seem quite low so could I put weight on them to increase grip or would this cut down on their pulling power? Can I swop the wheels? 

 

I am sure I could given time build a chassis, but, if I did it now I would want to keep it simple so I can get on building coaches and do this on the side.  If it worked then I might use it again.  If it could not pull much then it would be relegated to the goods and passenger train wot only has the two coaches I built and a couple of wagons.  At least it would make an appearance.

[ChrisN]

I am building 1196 (GWR number) very slowly and am compensating the (front) carrying axle and front drivers with a compensating beam each side. I'll let you know how it works when it is done but don't hold your breath. I am not sure of the origin of the chassis. I bought an etched chassis from Mainly Trains (no longer trading, unfortunately) but it was not designed for compensation. Tanat Valley of this parish kindly gave me some suitable etched frames. As the kit is white metal there will be plenty of weight but I am not sure it will be in the right place until I assemble it. I am using a High Level gearbox which should allow the motor to hide away without intruding in the cab or ruining the boiler. However, the advantage is that it is very narrow and so can go to one side and allow me to use split frames and split axles.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I have that Mainly Trains chassis to go under my Seaham tank so I will be very interested at how yours turns out.  My tank is a 3D print so I will have to work out where to put the weight.

[MikeOxon]

Although I've used Tenshodo SPUDs for motorised bogies, I doubt they'd be suitable for larger wheels because the gear ratio is about 14:1, which would be far too little reduction.  In case anyone picks up the wrong idea, I think you meant 0-16.5 (rather than 009) in your earlier reference, since these are 16.5 mm gauge units.