Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

17 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I've only just seen you cabside mod Chris, very neat job, can't have been easy. On the loco more generally, I agree with your approach. My own new motto is: Build more, worry less. Well that's the principle at least 

 

 

Brilliantly put!

 

Thank you Mikkel.  I will do the best I can with it, but in the end it will be full of compromises.  Fortunately Mr Price has an aversion to all things GWR and would not know a 645 from a 517, both, er sort of, may turn up on the evening train.

 

The mod was not too difficult.  Fiddly little bits of plastic though, and smaller yet to come! 

[southern42]

On 30/04/2020 at 17:43, ChrisN said:

 

 

Thank you Polly,

The turntable was still there at the end of the century.  I would be most interested in how they actually worked the line.

 

I have the Middleton book of Ruabon to Barmouth and unlike most it is quite unhelpful.  (To be clear/fair it does not mention a turntable and there are no pictures earlier than grouping and no saddle tanks.)

 

Do you have Railways of North Wales: The Llangollen Line Ruabon to Barmouth by W. G. Rear & N. Jones? Pub 1990, 2012.  Although most of it, understandably, centres around the 1950s-60s.   [edit] The Llangollen Line, Ruabon to Barmouth: Historical section [close edit]  (first page, in the book), gives an outline, based on the GWR Service book for May 1907, of the train workings on the line with times on the 4th & 5th pages (the pages themselves are not numbered). Working through the Stations, and I mean work, you can find snippets of information that might be helpful for how things were done along the line although, I find, you have to work even harder to determine what period / date the info refers to (but that might just be me!).  

 

The text can seem vague at times, e.g. On LLandrillo: "...Specific instructions were set down in the Sectional Appendix to the Working Timetables..." with no dates/periods when the specific practice began/ended but one could possibly conjecture that some of the workings had already been in force.   Some bits of early info and practices can be picked out from the coverage but specific dates can be lacking.

 

I love the book, mainly because of our interest in the Llangollen Railway, but I do find it hard to determine, sometimes, which period the author(s) are referring to.  The illustrations are well captioned and informative, although, as with any caption, it might not mention the bit in the illustration you are interested in.  Most of the photos are 1950s-60s so there is a distinct lack of early locos and trains, but landscapes in these parts were slow to change, and changes to track and T&T, etc is covered in places.  So, if it points out that a line was doubled in 1924, say, you would know it was single before then, but it may have been double then singled before that.  As I said, you have to work at it!  Interesting, nonetheless, and a lovely colour Cover picture of Llangollen Station, 22nd August 1953 with a track layout that is distinctly different to today's preservation one!  I probably would not have noticed that ten years ago!

 

If you have the book yourself, I hope that bit of info is of interest to someone.

_________

Best wishes

Polly

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by southern42
Chapter title correction

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, southern42 said:

 

Do you have Railways of North Wales: The Llangollen Line Ruabon to Barmouth by W. G. Rear & N. Jones? Pub 1990, 2012.  Although most of it, understandably, centres around the 1950s-60s, Ruabon (first Station/Section, first page, in the book), gives an outline, based on the GWR Service book for May 1907, of the train workings on the line with times on the 4th & 5th pages (the pages themselves are not numbered). Working through the Stations, and I mean work, you can find snippets of information that might be helpful for how things were done along the line although, I find, you have to work even harder to determine what period / date the info refers to (but that might just be me!).  

 

The text can seem vague at times, e.g. On LLandrillo: "...Specific instructions were set down in the Sectional Appendix to the Working Timetables..." with no dates/periods when the specific practice began/ended but one could possibly conjecture that some of the workings had already been in force.   Some bits of early info and practices can be picked out from the coverage but specific dates can be lacking.

 

I love the book, mainly because of our interest in the Llangollen Railway, but I do find it hard to determine, sometimes, which period the author(s) are referring to.  The illustrations are well captioned and informative, although, as with any caption, it might not mention the bit in the illustration you are interested in.  Most of the photos are 1950s-60s so there is a distinct lack of early locos and trains, but landscapes in these parts were slow to change, and changes to track and T&T, etc is covered in places.  So, if it points out that a line was doubled in 1924, say, you would know it was single before then, but it may have been double then singled before that.  As I said, you have to work at it!  Interesting, nonetheless, and a lovely colour Cover picture of Llangollen Station, 22nd August 1953 with a track layout that is distinctly different to today's preservation one!  I probably would not have noticed that ten years ago!

 

If you have the book yourself, I hope that bit of info is of interest to someone.

_________

Best wishes

Polly

 

 

 

Polly,

Thank you for this information.  I have not got this book, yet, but I have seen it.  I have been stung before in buying books about the Cambrian routes which in the end only have photos from the 50s and 60s, which is fine except that they add nothing to what I already know so I have not tried to buy it.  This is really a side project so I do not wish to spend lots of money on it, but your information helps so if I can get a cheap copy I will purchase it.

 

As of information.  In 1895 there were three trains a day that went from Ruabon to Dolgelley, to of which made the connection with the regular Cambrian train from Dolgelley to Traeth Mawr.  Also along this line came attached to the last train of the day, through coaches from Paddington, Manchester Exchange and Birkenhead.  (It is this last train that this loco will be pulling, even though the Cambrian did its best not to let the GWR locos on its metals.)  So while this line is not of primary interest how it worked might shed some light on how the end on junction actually worked.

 

(I have just noticed looking again at the Bradshaws of December 1895, that it appears that all trains left Bala 20 minutes before the train from Ruabon arrived.  They then took about 20 minutes to get to Llanuwchllyn.  The trains also appear to take 20 or so minutes between the stop before Bala and Bala, except for the train that makes no connections and this takes ten minutes.  It would appear that Bradshaws have got their arrival and departure times swapped round'  If not then trying to get from Ruabon to Dolgelley would be a nightmare.)

 

Polly, thank you again.

[Donw]

I suspect the times from Bala were for the shuttle to Bala JCN the Ruabon to Dolgelley would not go to Bala just stop at the Jcn Bala being on the branch to Ffestiniog. So you would leave Bala about 20 mins earlier to meet the connection for Dolgelley and arrive at Bala another 20 mins later if travelling from Ruabon to Bala.

 

I am not sure it would be worth your buying the book Chris if it is the one I have. There is some info on the trains but far less than the reprinted 1904 timetable that includes the working timetables for the Cambrian which includes the details on through coaches which I passed on to you. There was some info on the GWR trains arriving and leaving Dolgelley from Mike on my thread. I think that was from 1895 or thereabouts.

 

Don

[NCB]

Not sure if it's any use for 1895, but page 55 of C C Green's Cambrian Railways Album has a pic, Barmouth 1898, of an Aston Tri-Composite bogie carriage with the destination board labelled CAMBRIAN RAILWAYS MANCHESTER BARMOUTH. Presumably this is the through carriage from Manchester Exchange, unless there was an earlier through coach.

 

D&S used to do a kit of the rebuilt version of this coach; I have one in 3mm and intend to backdate it.

 

Nigel

[Donw]

I think a pair of the tri-composites worked through the Manchester daily throughoutbthe year as a balancing of the GWR coaches I presume the arrangement was to try to equal GWR coach miles on the Cambrian with Cambrian coach miles on the GWR.

 

I have the D&S 7mm ones do you know what the rebuilding involved? I would want to backdate mine.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

8 hours ago, NCB said:

Not sure if it's any use for 1895, but page 55 of C C Green's Cambrian Railways Album has a pic, Barmouth 1898, of an Aston Tri-Composite bogie carriage with the destination board labelled CAMBRIAN RAILWAYS MANCHESTER BARMOUTH. Presumably this is the through carriage from Manchester Exchange, unless there was an earlier through coach.

 

D&S used to do a kit of the rebuilt version of this coach; I have one in 3mm and intend to backdate it.

 

Nigel

 

2 hours ago, Donw said:

I think a pair of the tri-composites worked through the Manchester daily throughoutbthe year as a balancing of the GWR coaches I presume the arrangement was to try to equal GWR coach miles on the Cambrian with Cambrian coach miles on the GWR.

 

I have the D&S 7mm ones do you know what the rebuilding involved? I would want to backdate mine.

 

Don

 

Thank you.  I find the through carriages interesting and I think I have more to find out.  I read in 'The New History' that there was a question at a Board meeting as to why the Cambrian were paying out money for through carriages and the answer was that the mileage on other companies rails was always higher than on their own.  I would have therefore assumed that they did turn and turn about to reduce costs, although what they used before the Aston tri-composites, I am not sure.  (Six wheel tri-composites I would think.)

 

However, I have a copy for three different years of the GWR 'Through Carriage workings' which covers July to September.  In the one that covers 1904 there is a note at the bottom of the page that deals with Northern Expresses that any coach with a 'D' against it is GWR for Monday, Wednesday and Friday and Cambrian the rest.  The only coach this is against is the coach for Aberystwyth on the 9:50 from Paddington.  There are many other coaches to Barmouth, Pwllheli and Aberystwyth which do not have a 'D' against them so must always be GWR.  

 

I need to get to Kew Archive at some time and look at the file that covers 1892-1898.  I did ask for a copy of anything that referred to 'Northern Expresses' and I was told that they were not mentioned.  Whether this was that they were not in it or just not called that during this time has to wait until I can see the document myself.

 

I have managed to buy the sides and ends of the D&S coach, but not the bogies, but I had not realised it was in a rebuilt condition.  It is probably too late for me really but I was going to run the last train of the day with that coach and it being pulled by a 4-4-0 as a trial run as I believe neither went down that way in 1895.

[southern42]

 

17 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Polly,

Thank you for this information.  I have not got this book, yet, but I have seen it.  I have been stung before in buying books about the Cambrian routes which in the end only have photos from the 50s and 60s, which is fine except that they add nothing to what I already know so I have not tried to buy it.  This is really a side project so I do not wish to spend lots of money on it, but your information helps so if I can get a cheap copy I will purchase it.

 

As of information.  In 1895 there were three trains a day that went from Ruabon to Dolgelley, to of which made the connection with the regular Cambrian train from Dolgelley to Traeth Mawr.  Also along this line came attached to the last train of the day, through coaches from Paddington, Manchester Exchange and Birkenhead.  (It is this last train that this loco will be pulling, even though the Cambrian did its best not to let the GWR locos on its metals.)  So while this line is not of primary interest how it worked might shed some light on how the end on junction actually worked.

 

(I have just noticed looking again at the Bradshaws of December 1895, that it appears that all trains left Bala 20 minutes before the train from Ruabon arrived.  They then took about 20 minutes to get to Llanuwchllyn.  The trains also appear to take 20 or so minutes between the stop before Bala and Bala, except for the train that makes no connections and this takes ten minutes.  It would appear that Bradshaws have got their arrival and departure times swapped round'  If not then trying to get from Ruabon to Dolgelley would be a nightmare.)

 

Polly, thank you again.

 

As you do not have the book I have extracted the details from the historical section, 4th-5th pages.  As you see, not a lot, although he does go into mid line workings for the class F freight (I will post these if you think they will be of help/interest).

 

Ruabon to Barmouth details from the GWR Service book of May 1907.

Down direction.   W G Rear highlights the first through working Ruabon to Dolgellau as a class F freight leaving Ruabon yard at 4.20am arriving at Dolgellau at 9.45.  It also ran on  Sundays.

The first down passenger train was the 7.50am from Ruabon arriving Dolgellau at 9.45am.

 

Up direction. Four passenger workings ran between Dolgellau and Ruabon, the last through working being the 7.35pm Mail train arriving at Ruabon at 9.45pm.

Three goods trains left Dolgellau for Corwen with no through goods workings.  Rear also states that most of the duties were worked by Corwen locomotive dept.

 

Polly

[ChrisN]

54 minutes ago, southern42 said:

 

 

As you do not have the book I have extracted the details from the historical section, 4th-5th pages.  As you see, not a lot, although he does go into mid line workings for the class F freight (I will post these if you think they will be of help/interest).

 

Ruabon to Barmouth details from the GWR Service book of May 1907.

Down direction.   W G Rear highlights the first through working Ruabon to Dolgellau as a class F freight leaving Ruabon yard at 4.20am arriving at Dolgellau at 9.45.  It also ran on  Sundays.

The first down passenger train was the 7.50am from Ruabon arriving Dolgellau at 9.45am.

 

Up direction. Four passenger workings ran between Dolgellau and Ruabon, the last through working being the 7.35pm Mail train arriving at Ruabon at 9.45pm.

Three goods trains left Dolgellau for Corwen with no through goods workings.  Rear also states that most of the duties were worked by Corwen locomotive dept.

 

Polly

 

Polly,

Thank you, brilliant!  This is both interesting and embarrassing.  Embarrassing as having looked at the Middleton book again, it states about Corwen that it had an engine shed there until 1927 and it had rostered to it in 1901 six 0-4-2Ts and seven 0-6-0STs.  All these were GWR even though the shed was joint owned.  That would explain why the first passenger train of the day started at Corwen.  It was probably taking the stock down to Bala for the daily trips to Blaneau.

 

Now the article on 517s did not have any listed at Corwen so either they missed them or they were not 0-4-2Ts.

 

I would be interested, although it is just an interest, to see the working timetable for the line for 1895 or at least a Bradshaws from earlier in the year as I am sure they have the times of the trains incorrect at Bala.

 

Thank you for the information.  I have put a bid in for one on a certain auction site, which if I am successful means I will have a copy for less than a tenner so thank you for the offer of more info but I hope I will not have to trouble you or any more.

[southern42]

7 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Polly,

Thank you, brilliant!  This is both interesting and embarrassing.  Embarrassing as having looked at the Middleton book again, it states about Corwen that it had an engine shed there until 1927 and it had rostered to it in 1901 six 0-4-2Ts and seven 0-6-0STs.  All these were GWR even though the shed was joint owned.  That would explain why the first passenger train of the day started at Corwen.  It was probably taking the stock down to Bala for the daily trips to Blaneau.

 

Now the article on 517s did not have any listed at Corwen so either they missed them or they were not 0-4-2Ts.

 

I would be interested, although it is just an interest, to see the working timetable for the line for 1895 or at least a Bradshaws from earlier in the year as I am sure they have the times of the trains incorrect at Bala.

 

Thank you for the information.  I have put a bid in for one on a certain auction site, which if I am successful means I will have a copy for less than a tenner so thank you for the offer of more info but I hope I will not have to trouble you or any more.

 

Glad the info was useful, Chris.  I hope you will not be disappointed with the book.

 

517s were indeed 0-4-2Ts.  At Southall, they were used on passenger trains, "presumably for branch work." (Hawkins, Great Western Engine Sheds, London Division, 1987, p.130) 

 

1st January 1901, Corwen is noted as having six of the 3571 class, a continuation of the 517s. (Lyons, Great Western Engine Sheds, 1837-1947)

 

Polly

 

 

[ChrisN]

39 minutes ago, southern42 said:

 

Glad the info was useful, Chris.  I hope you will not be disappointed with the book.

 

517s were indeed 0-4-2Ts.  At Southall, they were used on passenger trains, "presumably for branch work." (Hawkins, Great Western Engine Sheds, London Division, 1987, p.130) 

 

1st January 1901, Corwen is noted as having six of the 3571 class, a continuation of the 517s. (Lyons, Great Western Engine Sheds, 1837-1947)

 

Polly

 

 

 

Polly,

Thank you.  I looked at Wiki and it said that the 3571s were used around Chester and Birkenhead although I could not work out what else they could have been.  

 

I assume that this book does not have anything as useful as the actual numbers of the locos, or anything earlier?  Does it have what type of 0-6-0ST were stabled at Corwen.

 

I will now have to get pictures of the 3571s to see if they can be converted from the 14xx.  It will b e about as convincing as the conversion I am doing at the moment but if I take a picture of Mr Price fuming on the platform with an out of focus loco at the far end, who is to know?

 

Thank you again, this is really helpful and I am most grateful.

 

EDIT:  They were not built until 1895 so a few  months too late for me!

Edited May 2, 2020 by ChrisN

[Donw]

23 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

 

 

I would be interested, although it is just an interest, to see the working timetable for the line for 1895 or at least a Bradshaws from earlier in the year as I am sure they have the times of the trains incorrect at Bala.

 

Was my earlier post not clear?  The reason for the funny times is there is a difference between Bala and Bala Jcn. The man line from Ruabon goes through Bala Jcn and onto Dolgelley. However Bala station is on the branch line from Bala jcn to Ffestiniog. So the Branch shuttle set off from Bala to meet the Ruabon train at the Jcn Hence it is shown as leaving Bala approx2 0 mins before arriving at the Jcn. Those travelling from Ruabon to Bala get off at the JCN and get on the shuttle which returns to Bala thus they will arrive at Bala approx 20 mins after the Dolgelly train left the jcn.

 

Don

Edited May 3, 2020 by Donw
typo

[southern42]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

 

Polly,

Thank you.  I looked at Wiki and it said that the 3571s were used around Chester and Birkenhead although I could not work out what else they could have been.  

 

I assume that this book does not have anything as useful as the actual numbers of the locos, or anything earlier?  Does it have what type of 0-6-0ST were stabled at Corwen.

 

I will now have to get pictures of the 3571s to see if they can be converted from the 14xx.  It will b e about as convincing as the conversion I am doing at the moment but if I take a picture of Mr Price fuming on the platform with an out of focus loco at the far end, who is to know?

 

Thank you again, this is really helpful and I am most grateful.

 

EDIT:  They were not built until 1895 so a few  months too late for me!

 

On 30/04/2020 at 00:22, Donw said:

The information of overhangs on GWR saddle tanks was requested as Chris is building one here seems a good place;

 

Wolverhampton Built engines 

Class        DAte built       Front        Rear                                        Total  Nos      

645            1872/3           4ft8in        5ft3in earky 6ft3in later      32     645-654, 656, 757-766, 768-775                            

655            1892-97         5ft             6ft early   6ft6in later           52     655, 767, 1741-50, 1771-90, 2701-20

1501          1878-81        4ft 8in       5ft9in early  6ft6in later       72    1501-65, 1801-12

 

Swindon built engines

1882-4       1813              4ft 9in       6ft                                           40      1813-32, 1834-53

1890-3       1854             4ft9in         6ft6in                                      100    1854-93, 1701-40, 1751-70

1900           2721            4ft 9in        6ft6in                                      58        2721-78

 

Don 

 

Right.  Here we go!

 

Allocations Corwen 1st January 1901 Total 13 (Lyons, p.76)

Class 3571 0-4-2T: 3572, 3574, 3575, 3578, 3579, 3580

 

Class 654 0-6-0ST: 654, 758, 768, 775,

Class 1501 0-6-0 ST: 1501, 1560

 

Glad to be of help, Chris.

Polly

[NCB]

On 02/05/2020 at 07:57, Donw said:

I think a pair of the tri-composites worked through the Manchester daily throughoutbthe year as a balancing of the GWR coaches I presume the arrangement was to try to equal GWR coach miles on the Cambrian with Cambrian coach miles on the GWR.

 

I have the D&S 7mm ones do you know what the rebuilding involved? I would want to backdate mine.

 

Don

 

The coach in question in rebuilt form was a brake third; I constructed one as under the GWR. Here's a pic:

 

Coming from the left, there were 3 third class, a luggage locker and two second class, up to this point same as the original. As rebuilt the rest was gutted and formed into a brake compartment. Previously the right hand end was a first compartment with windows in both sides and ends. Between the second second class and the first was sandwiched two toilets, one accessible from each; the toilet windows were still there, one each side, in the rebuild. The rebuild, seen below showing the brake end, retained two of the 3 end windows, but blocked off the middle one and also the 4 first class side windows.

 

So to unrebuild it, restore the 1 end and 4 side first class windows. I think the rebuild occured around 1911. Green's book has pictures of the unrebuilt coach on pages 55 and 63.

 

D&S also did another composite coach, I think also tri-composite. I have 2 of them to build but don't have them to hand; from memory I think they had an internal corridor and maybe an end locker. They also did a third class, which I don't have.

 

Nigel

 

Edit: on further checking, there is just one second class compartment, that nearest the toilets.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by NCB

[corneliuslundie]

Nice carriages. Can you point me to thew information which you used to do the rebuild? Drawings?

And re Bala, the GWR didn';t admit to the existence of Bala Junction in its public timetables, merely showing the connecting times to and from Bala. Even the Festiniog service was only shown between Bala and Festiniog with no mention of the link to Bala Junction.

Oddly, it did include Dovey Junction, which was much the same in having no public access. But Dovey Junction would have been used for changing from trains to/from Aberystwyth and the coast line, if one did not wish to go to Machynlleth and back.

I am going by a 1930s timetable but I am pretty sure it was the same earlier.

Jonathan

[southern42]

12 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Polly,

Thank you.  I looked at Wiki and it said that the 3571s were used around Chester and Birkenhead although I could not work out what else they could have been.  

 

I assume that this book does not have anything as useful as the actual numbers of the locos, or anything earlier?  Does it have what type of 0-6-0ST were stabled at Corwen.

 

I will now have to get pictures of the 3571s to see if they can be converted from the 14xx.  It will b e about as convincing as the conversion I am doing at the moment but if I take a picture of Mr Price fuming on the platform with an out of focus loco at the far end, who is to know?

 

Thank you again, this is really helpful and I am most grateful.

 

EDIT:  They were not built until 1895 so a few  months too late for me!

 

Info and photos of 517s and 3571 " http://www.gwr.org.uk/no4-coup-tanks.html

 

I knew I had seen a 517 on a passenger service!  This one on a run from Southall down the Brentford branch, 1900s. I have one of those (Southall numbered) steam rail motors on order!  Couldn't resist!  Looks like I need a 517 to go with it!  Now, see where travelling beyond your own thread leads to!  One of the delights of this parish!

 

Info @  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trumpers_Crossing_Halte_(postcard).jpg

 

 Another search of early vehicles has led me back to Riley, Great Western Album no. 2 with info & pics of 0-6-0T Wolverhampton 1016 class built between 1867 and 1871, and 517 class 541, both at Cheltenham, though.

 

Also, some reference pictures for our O gauge layout in the pipeline - to confirm a suggestion from Castle of this parish (and Didcot Railway Centre), that we could use a Siphon G to carry milk churns behind an 0-4-2T (14xx in this instance) in the early 50s.  So, never a bother to look up something for someone else.  They always show up something of delight, whether relevant or not!  And when it is for someone else, it is not only intuitive it is also most rewarding.  Guess that is why I ended up in the sort of jobs that I did, and still do as a volunteer!

 

Polly

[ChrisN]

13 hours ago, Donw said:

 

Was my earlier post not clear?  The reason for the funny times is there is a difference between Bala and Bala Jcn. The man line from Ruabon goes through Bala Jcn and onto Dolgelley. However Bala station is on the branch line from Bala jcn to Ffestiniog. So the Branch shuttle set off from Bala to meet the Ruabon train at the Jcn Hence it is shown as leaving Bala approx2 0 mins before arriving at the Jcn. Those travelling from Ruabon to Bala get off at the JCN and get on the shuttle which returns to Bala thus they will arrive at Bala approx 20 mins after the Dolgelly train left the jcn.

 

Don

 

Don,

Your first post was completely clear, but I managed to miss it, not quite sure how.  Thank you for the further explanation though.

[ChrisN]

4 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Nice carriages. Can you point me to thew information which you used to do the rebuild? Drawings?

And re Bala, the GWR didn';t admit to the existence of Bala Junction in its public timetables, merely showing the connecting times to and from Bala. Even the Festiniog service was only shown between Bala and Festiniog with no mention of the link to Bala Junction.

Oddly, it did include Dovey Junction, which was much the same in having no public access. But Dovey Junction would have been used for changing from trains to/from Aberystwyth and the coast line, if one did not wish to go to Machynlleth and back.

I am going by a 1930s timetable but I am pretty sure it was the same earlier.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I get the impression, although I hope I am wrong, That trains used to leave Machynlleth as empty stock and when the Aberystwyth train came then the passengers for the coast changed and got on the other train.  The reverse happened on the way back.  This was not true for all trains but when two left in the WWT within a few minutes of each other on the public timetable it shows the same time for both trains to Glandovey and then separate departure times

 

This is madness I hear you say.  Absolutely but the railways often did stupid things but had a monopoly so got away with it.

[ChrisN]

14 hours ago, southern42 said:

 

 

Right.  Here we go!

 

Allocations Corwen 1st January 1901 Total 13 (Lyons, p.76)

Class 3571 0-4-2T: 3572, 3574, 3575, 3578, 3579, 3580

 

Class 654 0-6-0ST: 654, 758, 768, 775,

Class 1501 0-6-0 ST: 1501, 1560

 

Glad to be of help, Chris.

Polly

 

3 hours ago, southern42 said:

 

Info and photos of 517s and 3571 " http://www.gwr.org.uk/no4-coup-tanks.html

 

I knew I had seen a 517 on a passenger service!  This one on a run from Southall down the Brentford branch, 1900s. I have one of those (Southall numbered) steam rail motors on order!  Couldn't resist!  Looks like I need a 517 to go with it!  Now, see where travelling beyond your own thread leads to!  One of the delights of this parish!

 

.

Info @  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trumpers_Crossing_Halte_(postcard).jpg

 

 Another search of early vehicles has led me back to Riley, Great Western Album no. 2 with info & pics of 0-6-0T Wolverhampton 1016 class built between 1867 and 1871, and 517 class 541, both at Cheltenham, though.

 

Also, some reference pictures for our O gauge layout in the pipeline - to confirm a suggestion from Castle of this parish (and Didcot Railway Centre), that we could use a Siphon G to carry milk churns behind an 0-4-2T (14xx in this instance) in the early 50s.  So, never a bother to look up something for someone else.  They always show up something of delight, whether relevant or not!  And when it is for someone else, it is not only intuitive it is also most rewarding.  Guess that is why I ended up in the sort of jobs that I did, and still do as a volunteer!

 

Polly

 

Polly,

Thank you, the information is most helpful.  I would assume that it was 517s before the 3571s so that interesting.  It also gives me a few more numbers to work on, although it is possible none of these were there six years earlier.   Thank you for the other info, I would have got there eventually but it is nice to have a shortcut.

 

Glad you found out some information for your layout.  I would assume that there were Metro tanks your way as well?  How about the Holden four wheelers?

[NCB]

7 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Nice carriages. Can you point me to thew information which you used to do the rebuild? Drawings?

 

 

The D&S kit was for the rebuild, so I didn't need further information.

 

NRM drawing 8223 in the OPC collection is for the coach as built. Looking at it, it has just one second class compartment, that nearest the toilets. So I think C C Green was wrong on page 55 of Cambrian Railways Album. Indeed, taking a magnifying glass to the pic on page 63 that also shows just the one second class compartment.

 

8223 is a good drawing for doing the original version of the coach. I also found it useful for the rebuilt version.

 

Nigel

[southern42]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

 

Polly,

Thank you, the information is most helpful.  I would assume that it was 517s before the 3571s so that interesting.  It also gives me a few more numbers to work on, although it is possible none of these were there six years earlier.   Thank you for the other info, I would have got there eventually but it is nice to have a shortcut.

 

Glad you found out some information for your layout.  I would assume that there were Metro tanks your way as well?  How about the Holden four wheelers?

 

Definitely some Metros at 81C, the last 35s having left about 1942 (Hawkins, p.135).

 

Nos. 3599 and 3592 illustrated (p.125); 3558 back to back with 1487 (p.127) [I had to take a photo and zoom in to get the nos. on this photo]; 3565, 3564 (p.135 top), and 3564 1932 (p.135 bottom).

 

Interesting what Hawkins says of them.  The open cab examples were lower than the coaches and bounced on their springs. "driver and fireman going up and down in unison."  The constricted cabs made the work awkward with little room to turn around necessitating a short shovel with the blade cut back; skinned knuckles and burns common.  A company-issue sheet was provided for bunker first driving in the rain.  'The description "they fair rattled along" accurately recalls their "seasick" mode of progress.'  When I first read that, some years ago, I thought I must get one and get it doing just that...you know, when everyone wants their RTR models to run oh, so, smoothly!

 

Polly

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by southern42

[Northroader]

There’s a picture in “GWR country stations-2”,  Ian Allan 1984, of Bala Town station  with No. 539 on a train you might like.

[ChrisN]

5 minutes ago, Northroader said:

There’s a picture in “GWR country stations-2”,  Ian Allan 1984, of Bala Town station  with No. 539 on a train you might like.

 

Wow!!!!!!  Thank you.  Not only a 517 but also a set of 4 wheelers.  All oil lamp tops, three of mine are gas lamp tops.  I will need to check out what they are.  The second looks like a four compartment composite but the lamp tops do not fit the compartments and there appears to be someone standing on the footboard in the middle and other people walking by.  The third one is probably that, a third.

 

So similar to the coaches I am building, which is encouraging, but on the Bala branch so they may have used different stock on the Ruabon Dolgelley line.  More investigating.

 

Thank you again.

[southern42]

Summary of some build dates for you, Chris so that you can determine what may have been on the line or not.

 

0-4-2T 517 built 1868 and 1885

0-4-2T 3571 built 1895-1897

2-4-0T 'Metro' 1868-1899; Nos. 3561-3599, 3500 built 1894-1899 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_455_Class)

 

I do not know the  Holden four wheelers but they do look nice!  They must have looked very inviting in their day.  I am more familiar with the later steam railmotor and autocoach, mimicking the old steam rail motor.  Talking of which, in Branch lines of West London (Middleton, plate 32), there is a photo taken at Trumpers Crossing Halte on the Brentford Branch of a loco encased to look like the auto coach it is hauling.  The loco is a 517!  The orientation of the loco is bunker first (great in the wind and rain, no doubt!) with the chimney surfacing at the rear end of the casing.  So, thanks to your thread, the photo now has more meaning.

 

Just goodled images and found it online and not just the photo but also a bit more information: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/t/trumpers_crossing_halt/

 

Polly

[ChrisN]

53 minutes ago, southern42 said:

Summary of some build dates for you, Chris so that you can determine what may have been on the line or not.

 

0-4-2T 517 built 1868 and 1885

0-4-2T 3571 built 1895-1897

2-4-0T 'Metro' 1868-1899; Nos. 3561-3599, 3500 built 1894-1899 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_455_Class)

 

I do not know the  Holden four wheelers but they do look nice!  They must have looked very inviting in their day.  I am more familiar with the later steam railmotor and autocoach, mimicking the old steam rail motor.  Talking of which, in Branch lines of West London (Middleton, plate 32), there is a photo taken at Trumpers Crossing Halte on the Brentford Branch of a loco encased to look like the auto coach it is hauling.  The loco is a 517!  The orientation of the loco is bunker first (great in the wind and rain, no doubt!) with the chimney surfacing at the rear end of the casing.  So, thanks to your thread, the photo now has more meaning.

 

Just goodled images and found it online and not just the photo but also a bit more information: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/t/trumpers_crossing_halt/

 

Polly

 

Thank you Polly.  I am glad things have gained something from helping me!  

 

The 3571s are too late for me, but there would have been 517s.  Just need to see if I can find out which one and what condition they were in.  (Heinz has nothing on these, not 57 varieties, more like 517!)  There would have not been Metros as they were Southern Division so would not have been allocated to Wales.  Shame as I have a resin kit for one.

 

The Holden four wheelers were used by the GWR for their underground trains which is why they have curved tops to the doors so that if they came open they would not hit the tunnel.  They would have started  somewhere like, Southhall, I think.  You can get brass sides for them made by Shire Scenes to fit Ratio coaches from Dart Castings.

 

I have heard about that 517, it was probably in Castle Aching, and I think that after a while they removed the cladding as it was too hot inside for the crew.  Nice idea though.