Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[corneliuslundie]

Even as late as 1921 all three Mawddwy branch trains are shown as mixed. So are two of the three Kerry branch trains.

Jonathan

[NCB]

Chris

The timetable would be very interesting.

Nigel

[ChrisN]

Let me see if it will take Excel?

 

Traeth Mawr Timetable.xlsx

 

It worked!  This timetable came into force in October 1894 and ran probably until June or July 1895.

 

You can read the colour code, it is for my own benefit.  I try and run through the timetable with the motley stock I have, of which only three coaches are Cambrian and the only loco that came within 50 miles in 1895 is a LNWR Coal Tank.  As I make things the others will be replaced but for now my grandchildren can run them.

 

The train numbers at the top are the numbers from the Coast WTT, the numbers in brackets are the Dolgelley Branch WTT.

 

There are the fares at the bottom from Paddington.  If I remember rightly the First Class return works out to about £800.00 at todays prices.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited December 7, 2020 by ChrisN
Explanation of Timetable

[NCB]

Fascinating! Thanks. One thing I've wondered about, but as yet haven't any evidence to back it up. Were there Barmouth to Pwllheli services? Possibly connecting with Machynlleth to Barmouth and/or Dolgelley to Barmouth. Was thinking about the platform arrangements at Barmouth e.g. train from south terminates at Barmouth, another train going north waiting on the other face of same platform.  Same thing in opposite direction.

 

Nigel

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, NCB said:

Fascinating! Thanks. One thing I've wondered about, but as yet haven't any evidence to back it up. Were there Barmouth to Pwllheli services? Possibly connecting with Machynlleth to Barmouth and/or Dolgelley to Barmouth. Was thinking about the platform arrangements at Barmouth e.g. train from south terminates at Barmouth, another train going north waiting on the other face of same platform.  Same thing in opposite direction.

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

It does not appear so.  Basically I have moved the Barmouth trains to Traeth Mawr and added a few minutes where it would not notice to my times.  I do think that the 16:35 from Machynlleth, the one with the through coaches, may have backed into the north facing bay.  In the winter of 1895 it arrived about half an hour before the Dolgelley service which brought another through coach for Pwllheli.

 

There was the Mail/Goods that terminated at Barmouth Junction that was due to connect with the Dolgelley service.  The only short services were between Pwllheli and Portmadoc.  

 

I think that they may have come later.  Just had a very quick look at the 1910 Bradshaws, and there was a Machynlleth Barmouth train that connected with a Dolgelley train.

[Donw]

3 hours ago, NCB said:

Fascinating! Thanks. One thing I've wondered about, but as yet haven't any evidence to back it up. Were there Barmouth to Pwllheli services? Possibly connecting with Machynlleth to Barmouth and/or Dolgelley to Barmouth. Was thinking about the platform arrangements at Barmouth e.g. train from south terminates at Barmouth, another train going north waiting on the other face of same platform.  Same thing in opposite direction.

 

Nigel

 

No the station layout doesn't seem to have been well designed. The GWR used an excursion platform on the other side of the level crossing for terminating trains.  I seem to remember there being something about a train timed for school kids stopping at Barmouth

 

Looking at your Timetable Chris I didn't see the goods to Dolgelley. I forget the exact time but in 1904  the Goods arriving from Machynlleth about midday (12:20 just checked) at Barmouth JCN carried on up to Dolgelley.  However the GWR timetable in 1895 showed that although it should arrive before the 1:30 pm GWR goods to Rhuabon, there was provision for an extra loco to pick up Cambrian goods at dogelley. Obviously the Cambrian goods was often late for there to be special provision.

[Donw]

Checking with the 1904 timetable there is a up train from PWllheli that terminates at Barmouth at 3.15pm. I cannot see a balancing down working apart from the 11:50 ex.  Dolgelley that depart Barmouthat 12.25pm and arrives at Pwllheli after the up train has left.

Don

[ChrisN]

10 hours ago, Donw said:

 

No the station layout doesn't seem to have been well designed. The GWR used an excursion platform on the other side of the level crossing for terminating trains.  I seem to remember there being something about a train timed for school kids stopping at Barmouth

 

Looking at your Timetable Chris I didn't see the goods to Dolgelley. I forget the exact time but in 1904  the Goods arriving from Machynlleth about midday (12:20 just checked) at Barmouth JCN carried on up to Dolgelley.  However the GWR timetable in 1895 showed that although it should arrive before the 1:30 pm GWR goods to Rhuabon, there was provision for an extra loco to pick up Cambrian goods at dogelley. Obviously the Cambrian goods was often late for there to be special provision.

 

Don,

Thank you.  I have not put the Dolgelley Goods on this timetable.  The train in green from Machynlleth is the one that connects with it, or rather becomes it.  It is on my timetable as the WTT and Bradshaws confused me as it shows a time for the Machynlleth train at Barmouth, but it assumes that the passengers change at Barmouth Junction to the ex Dolgelley train, which is why the Station Masters were instructed to let Barmouth Junction know if there were passengers that wanted to go to Barmouth and beyond so that they could hold the Dolgelley train.  I do not have the 1904 timetable, but it appears that that goods was a fixture, although they were thinking about, and improving passenger services.

 

I think I have shared before the tale of the lady who asked the Station Master about a train that was arriving, "Is this the 5:30 that is late," to which the Station Master replied, "I think it might be the 4:20."  I have a 1920 document showing the late arrivals for a week and there are quite a number that are over twenty minutes late.

 

 

10 hours ago, Donw said:

Checking with the 1904 timetable there is a up train from PWllheli that terminates at Barmouth at 3.15pm. I cannot see a balancing down working apart from the 11:50 ex.  Dolgelley that depart Barmouthat 12.25pm and arrives at Pwllheli after the up train has left.

Don

 

I wonder if there is a balancing goods train or shorter workings, for instance to Portmadoc.  It reminds me, although it is not quite the same that if you wish to go from Teddington to Reading via Twickenham, as the Teddington train pulls into Twickenham you see the Reading train leaving.  The next one is in half an hour, so frustrating.

[ChrisN]

I am afraid life has got in the way this week, what little I have done has not been photographed.  However, a few weeks ago I purchased 'Private Owner Wagons on the Cambrian.  No, it was not me who outbid you and purchased it on EBay, although I did bid but was outbid by someone else.  I was under the impression it was rare but decided to look on Amazon.  There were two I think, one at £25 and one at £Ridiculous.  I then Googled it and found one on Abe Book for £15.00.  

 

It is both interesting and frustrating.  It is very interesting as it does have lists of Private Owners in various towns and also others from outside Cambrian territory that were regular visitors.  It also has diagrams and photos of some.  It is frustrating as on a number of owners it states, Diagram in MRC Aug 1970 or some such.  Now I realise that they could not produce these diagrams or photos but unless I am really desperate for a particular wagon I am not going to try and track whatever magazine it was down.

 

Now, why am I saying all this, particularly as wagons are after coaches and even some locos, depending on how things pan out?  Well planning, interests leading me astray.  Running the timetable and finding I do not have enough wagons really.  I am not sure how but I came across a thread on Lilleshall Co Ltd, to be specific, images of the Bachmann PO wagons of that company.  Now I am fairly certain that any Bachmann wagon, however much the person selling it protests, is a good 20 to 30 years too late for me.  So does anybody now about these?  Are they easily backdatable, or best to be avoided?  (There is a Hornby GWR wagon as well appearing soon which I assume the words 'touch' and 'ten foot barge pole' would be used together in the same sentence.)

 

Once started I am a bit of a junkie.  POW sides.  Too late for this Christmas, and my son's are wary of 'dodgy model railway websites' that are 'not secure', and 'do not have encryption'.  (Most do now but one had their fingers burnt with Coopercraft.)  I have a few Slaters kits, 4040, and 4035, which I understand, well people have told me, that actually although they are from diagrams after my period that actually the diagrams just solidified the good practise already happening, but 'just make sure you have grease axel boxes'.  So question, the Slaters/POW sides 4044, four planker, is that suitable for 1895?  I have found some of these that have suitable POs for the Cambrian.  The others I have will have to be repainted.

 

(In my defence I am slowly going through Compounds D299 Appreciation Thread but I am not sure when I move from one page to the next I remember the previous page, although some bits must have stuck.

 

So, I am not intending to go on a wagon building spree, I have far too much else to do, but if there is anything R-T-R I might buy it, and also although my box for wagon kits is full, if there were other things I could add to the stash I would do, and the sooner I start he less desperate I will be and so not be tempted to pay silly prices.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Donw]

I knew Mike Lloyd and discussed the book with him. It is really just the information he had unearthed and not an exhaustic study. He admitted his knowledge of Barmouth area was rather patchy whereas the Tanat valley  he had studied more. I usually build wagons with one side brakes as that was common in earlier days. Grease axles boxes if you can are best.

I think I was informed that the 1907 RCH  diagram was heavily influenced by Charles Roberts on what he was already doing so  that wagons very similar to that diagram were about from say the turn of the centuary. 

Trying to make all the wagons accurate for 1895 is verging on the 'life's too short' for me and I would run some later designs if they weren't too modern. As I say single brakes look at the shape of the V hanger and livery. I would expect not all wagons would have company lettering in 1895. A few tattier looking ones with single brake blocks would make the scene look earlier and perhaps some dumb buffered ones too.

 

Don

[Mikkel]

8 hours ago, ChrisN said:

found one on Abe Book for £15.00

 

I have sometimes used them too, as I am wary of Amazon. But guess what: "We're a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. after being acquired in December 2008." 

 

8 hours ago, ChrisN said:

(There is a Hornby GWR wagon as well appearing soon which I assume the words 'touch' and 'ten foot barge pole' would be used together in the same sentence.)

 

Do you mean the "3-plank wagon"? Well you could run it as a Cambrian man mocking the GWR  It has oil axle boxes and is more LSWR-ish, if I understand correctly. Nile has done some modification of the axle boxes:  

 

[Northroader]

 

[corneliuslundie]

Although Mike referenced those magazines, I suspect that they are not his articles, as the WRRC has no PO wagon drawings other than those in the book. I have RM from 1964 but not the others on the whole, but you have prompted me to do a check. Don't hold your breath for the answer.

I agree with Mikkel about one side brakes. One issue with the Slaters Gloucester wagons is that there are a number of specific Gloucester features which are distinctive, such as the V hangers.

There are some nice white metal kits for PO dumb buffered wagons though:

Roxey Mouldings – Chatham kits Parry dumb buffered coal wagon ref 4F06

Roxey Mouldings – Chatham kits Stephenson Clarke dumb buffered coal wagon ref 4F07

They are pretty generic so could easily be lettered for the Traeth Mawr Coal and Timber Company etc.

Jonathan

PS You can never have too many wagons

[Skinnylinny]

There are also about a dozen different whitemetal kits for dumb-buffered PO wagons from 5&9 models - see http://www.5and9models.co.uk/wagons.html at the bottom of the page. Mostly based on wagons which would have been seen on the LB&SCR but possibly something useful. They go together rather nicely (at least the couple I've bought did!).

[NCB]

The 1887 spec RCH wagons had brakes on one side only. That means the other side had nothing, not even a brake lever. On the sides with brakes, there were two v-hangers, one outside and one inside the solebar. The brake shaft went from the brake lever, through each v-hanger in turn, to the brake mechanism proper.

 

The 1906 spec RCH wagons had two independant sets of brakes, one each side, essentially the same arrangement as the 1887 spec but repeated the other side.

 

In 3mm/ft, Cambrian Models did a 1887 spec wagon for Finney & Smith, now sold by 3SMR. It's noticeably smaller than the 1906 spec wagon which Slaters did for the 3mm Society. I might be able to do a pic.

[Donw]

37 minutes ago, NCB said:

The 1887 spec RCH wagons had brakes on one side only. That means the other side had nothing, not even a brake lever. On the sides with brakes, there were two v-hangers, one outside and one inside the solebar. The brake shaft went from the brake lever, through each v-hanger in turn, to the brake mechanism proper.

 

The 1906 spec RCH wagons had two independant sets of brakes, one each side, essentially the same arrangement as the 1887 spec but repeated the other side.

 

In 3mm/ft, Cambrian Models did a 1887 spec wagon for Finney & Smith, now sold by 3SMR. It's noticeably smaller than the 1906 spec wagon which Slaters did for the 3mm Society. I might be able to do a pic.

 

Yes when I said about only fitting brakes to one side I didn't mention only using one lever too.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

19 hours ago, Donw said:

I knew Mike Lloyd and discussed the book with him. It is really just the information he had unearthed and not an exhaustic study. He admitted his knowledge of Barmouth area was rather patchy whereas the Tanat valley  he had studied more. I usually build wagons with one side brakes as that was common in earlier days. Grease axles boxes if you can are best.

I think I was informed that the 1907 RCH  diagram was heavily influenced by Charles Roberts on what he was already doing so  that wagons very similar to that diagram were about from say the turn of the centuary. 

Trying to make all the wagons accurate for 1895 is verging on the 'life's too short' for me and I would run some later designs if they weren't too modern. As I say single brakes look at the shape of the V hanger and livery. I would expect not all wagons would have company lettering in 1895. A few tattier looking ones with single brake blocks would make the scene look earlier and perhaps some dumb buffered ones too.

 

Don

 

Don,

Thank you.  My comments were not really meant as a criticism of Mike, as I think I understand a little of the difficulties of acquiring the information.

 

Yes I will go for one sided brakes and some dumb buffers but I agree that life is too short  to get it perfect.  I will not be exhibiting and I will work on my usual basis of if someone was there in 1895, preferably on the platform at Traeth Mawr, and can tell me I am wrong, I will change it.

 

 

 

[Donw]

9 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

Don,

Thank you.  My comments were not really meant as a criticism of Mike, as I think I understand a little of the difficulties of acquiring the information.

 

Yes I will go for one sided brakes and some dumb buffers but I agree that life is too short  to get it perfect.  I will not be exhibiting and I will work on my usual basis of if someone was there in 1895, preferably on the platform at Traeth Mawr, and can tell me I am wrong, I will change it.

 

 

 

 

I am sure Mr Price will let you know if there are glaring errors. 

 

Don

[ChrisN]

11 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

I have sometimes used them too, as I am wary of Amazon. But guess what: "We're a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. after being acquired in December 2008." 

 

 

Do you mean the "3-plank wagon"? Well you could run it as a Cambrian man mocking the GWR  It has oil axle boxes and is more LSWR-ish, if I understand correctly. Nile has done some modification of the axle boxes:  

 

 

Mikkel,

Now would I mock the GWR?  A lot of my help and followers come from there.

 

When I saw the wagon on pre-release I did wonder, but I do not know enough about the GWR to come to a firm conclusion.  It will not go on my wish list but if my grandson gets his railway out again, umm........

[ChrisN]

10 hours ago, Northroader said:

 

 

Thank you.  I actually saw this the other night, so it is really useful to have a link from my thread.  

[ChrisN]

10 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Although Mike referenced those magazines, I suspect that they are not his articles, as the WRRC has no PO wagon drawings other than those in the book. I have RM from 1964 but not the others on the whole, but you have prompted me to do a check. Don't hold your breath for the answer.

I agree with Mikkel about one side brakes. One issue with the Slaters Gloucester wagons is that there are a number of specific Gloucester features which are distinctive, such as the V hangers.

There are some nice white metal kits for PO dumb buffered wagons though:

Roxey Mouldings – Chatham kits Parry dumb buffered coal wagon ref 4F06

Roxey Mouldings – Chatham kits Stephenson Clarke dumb buffered coal wagon ref 4F07

They are pretty generic so could easily be lettered for the Traeth Mawr Coal and Timber Company etc.

Jonathan

PS You can never have too many wagons

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I had assumed that Mike could not show those pictures due to copyright.

 

I will need to look at the wagons more closely.  Looking at POW sides last night I think there were few, if any early Gloucester or Charles Roberts in relevant liveries.  The ones I have will probably be repainted.

 

Chatham kits.  Thank you for the reminder.  The dumb buffered one I have I think is the Parry one.  Robert Parry who owns the Traeth Mawr Coal Co.  does not believe that ther are any Parrys outside Wales so would be very surprised if one of those in original livery was sent to him.  i shall have to look out for more of those.  There are POs who we know existed but have no record of their wagons.  They could be candidates for these.

 

Also, the Traeth Mawr Gas Co could have its own wagons for coal, although would they take the coke away or the person they had sold it to?

[ChrisN]

10 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

There are also about a dozen different whitemetal kits for dumb-buffered PO wagons from 5&9 models - see http://www.5and9models.co.uk/wagons.html at the bottom of the page. Mostly based on wagons which would have been seen on the LB&SCR but possibly something useful. They go together rather nicely (at least the couple I've bought did!).

 

Linny,

Thank you.  I had assumed that 5and9 wagons were too specific to the south-east, but perhaps they are more general, depending on where they were built.  They certainly could be renamed.  I need to contact Chris about something else so I will ask him about them.

[Compound2632]

21 hours ago, ChrisN said:

I am afraid life has got in the way this week, what little I have done has not been photographed.  However, a few weeks ago I purchased 'Private Owner Wagons on the Cambrian. 

 

Once started I am a bit of a junkie.  POW sides.  Too late for this Christmas, and my son's are wary of 'dodgy model railway websites' that are 'not secure', and 'do not have encryption'.  (Most do now but one had their fingers burnt with Coopercraft.)  I have a few Slaters kits, 4040, and 4035, which I understand, well people have told me, that actually although they are from diagrams after my period that actually the diagrams just solidified the good practise already happening, but 'just make sure you have grease axel boxes'.  So question, the Slaters/POW sides 4044, four planker, is that suitable for 1895?  I have found some of these that have suitable POs for the Cambrian.  The others I have will have to be repainted.

 

(In my defence I am slowly going through Compounds D299 Appreciation Thread but I am not sure when I move from one page to the next I remember the previous page, although some bits must have stuck.

 

POWSides are perfectly respectable as an online retailer. The pre-printed kits are the best place to start - you will have to paint solebars to match but they give a Humbrol reference; in some cases you will have to touch up the black ironwork too. 

 

Slaters Gloucester kits are good for wagons built by that company to the RCH 1887 Specification - in fact they have the earlier style of Gloucester axlebox with a rounded bottom, which is appropriate for wagons built up to the mid-1890s. 

 

12 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I agree with Mikkel about one side brakes. One issue with the Slaters Gloucester wagons is that there are a number of specific Gloucester features which are distinctive, such as the V hangers.

There are some nice white metal kits for PO dumb buffered wagons though:

Roxey Mouldings – Chatham kits Parry dumb buffered coal wagon ref 4F06

Roxey Mouldings – Chatham kits Stephenson Clarke dumb buffered coal wagon ref 4F07

They are pretty generic so could easily be lettered for the Traeth Mawr Coal and Timber Company etc.

 

The Slaters Gloucester kits are good not least because the Gloucester photo archive survives, so that builder's wagons are probably the best-documented of the main wagon firms. So plenty of authentic liveries to choose from! It would be reasonably straightforward to modify or replace the V-hanger to represent the style used by other builders. 

 

In 1895, there would still be large numbers of dumb-buffered PO wagons, especially on a line such as the Cambrian that hadn't the means to pursue a vigorous policy of discouraging them. The Parry wagon is a good start for that; the Stephenson Clarke wagons are to that company's standard design and a bit longer than was usual.

 

But if you've been reading my wagon building topic, you'll have seen examples of converting Cambrian 4-plank PO wagon kits to dumb buffers (Huntley & Palmers) and more recently, using some Cambrian components for the solebars of dumb buffered wagons with scratch-built bodies. I have the intention of building more such.

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, NCB said:

The 1887 spec RCH wagons had brakes on one side only. That means the other side had nothing, not even a brake lever. On the sides with brakes, there were two v-hangers, one outside and one inside the solebar. The brake shaft went from the brake lever, through each v-hanger in turn, to the brake mechanism proper.

 

The 1906 spec RCH wagons had two independant sets of brakes, one each side, essentially the same arrangement as the 1887 spec but repeated the other side.

 

In 3mm/ft, Cambrian Models did a 1887 spec wagon for Finney & Smith, now sold by 3SMR. It's noticeably smaller than the 1906 spec wagon which Slaters did for the 3mm Society. I might be able to do a pic.

 

Nigel, 

Thank you.  I did know about single sided brakes but that description is very useful.

 

I had got the impression that the earlier wagons were smaller, and I think the two types of wagon that I have are the smaller ones.  This was one reason I am interested in the Slaters 4044 as I do not have any information about it and although 4 plank, how big it is.

[NCB]

Here's a pic of two of my 3mm/ft wagons, an 1887 spec RCH one and a 1906 spec one:

 

As can be seen, the earlier one is noticeably smaller than the later. The 1923 RCH design in longer again, 16'6" against 15' for the 1906 design.

 

In looking at these, I realise I may have made a mistake; the 1887 one has been built with 2 independent brakes not 1, not impossible but unusual. And I have only 1 V hanger per side on the 1906 one.

 

Nigel