Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Nick Gough]

This video might be helpful as well:

 

By Mikkel of this parish.

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Nick Gough said:

Chris

 

The raised mouldings, around the windows, and elsewhere should be black for your time period.

 

Have a look at the photos on the Didcot website for clerestorey 1941:

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/142/no-1941-dean-third#gallery-3

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/142/no-1941-dean-third#gallery-5

 

Nick,

Thank you.  Is that the same for four wheelers?  Sorry, to ask a silly question but I have not studied the GWR very much, and I missed the black on the images I have seen.

[MikeOxon]

7 hours ago, ChrisN said:

I have been putting off painting my coaches, mainly as I will have to do it upstairs in the railway room, standing up. (There is no room to sit.)

 

Painting panelled coaches is a delicate task.  I cannot imaging relaxing enough while standing up.  As I mentioned recently on another thread, I painted some Tri-ang clerestory coaches many years ago, while convalescing after pneumonia.  It was therapeutic to sit back in a chair and slowly add all those fine strokes.  Perhaps you should adopt acrylic paints which avoid the problem of smell and potentially toxic fumes when painting indoors.  I have been using them successfully on several of my recent 'builds'

 

Mike

[MikeOxon]

24 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

Is that the same for four wheelers? 

Yes - the full livery was actually quite complex.  Black mouldings with a fine gold edging and a brown line inside the edges of the cream panels.  In 4mm scale, I wouldn't attempt all the details but the gold edging does affect the overall appearance quite significantly.  I showed an example in a comment on the same thread that I mentioned above.  I took a photo of WIP at 12" to the foot scale at Didcot in 2016:

 

 

Mike

[Nick Gough]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

 

Nick,

Thank you.  Is that the same for four wheelers?  Sorry, to ask a silly question but I have not studied the GWR very much, and I missed the black on the images I have seen.

Yes, as Mike has already said.

 

As you say the black's not always clear in photos. The clerestorey photos were the most obvious I found in a quick search.

 

The Victorian/Edwardian liveries are quite beautiful, but I'm glad that I've opted for the simplicity of the 1930s!

[Donw]

It is very difficult to find definitive answers in Great Western Way. I do not belive the Bolections round the windows were painted Indian Red in your period . I believe they were either the natural Mahogany varnised  or  painted Venitian Red. I suspect the varnished Mahogany  looked  similar to the Indian Red.  I see no evidence for them being painted black.

The diagram in Great Western Way for 1902 shows from glass to glass between two windows

 

Venetian Red/ Black/Gold/Black/pale cream/Windsor Brown/Palecream (the wide bit)/Windsor Brown/pale cream/black/gold/black/Venetian Red

 

The text suggests this was seen as early as 1876 and lasted to 1908. The narrowest lines were the Windsor Brown shown as 1/8inch wide  around 1.6 thou in 4mm  

 

This suggests thet the photo of work at Didcot matches it except the colour of the bolections which do not look right to me.

Don

[Mikkel]

Good to see some GWR coach painting Chris, funny how that company keeps getting in the way on your Cambrian scene! Although I know the reasons of course.

 

Incidentally, I only just now realize that Traeth Mawr means big sands, very nice.

 

 

9 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

 I took a photo of WIP at 12" to the foot scale at Didcot in 2016:

 

 

Mike

 

It's such an excellent illustration of the Didcot livery Mike. And you got to see painting in progress too. Very envious!

[corneliuslundie]

I am following this with interest as I have some GWR 4-wheelrs to paint in chocolate and cream as it would still have been in 1912 - others are lake and brown for variety. I agree about GWW not being as clear as one would like on this point.

But my reason for commenting among this illustrious audience is that we are currently looking to produce an updated PDF of amendments and additions to GWW so if anyone has any definite evidence it would be appreciated if you could either let me see it or point me to the source - not just for the GWRE but for all the absorbed companies of any date.

BTW what do people think of Digby's paintings in his book?

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

I took a photo of WIP at 12" to the foot scale at Didcot in 2016:

 

 

Mike

 

Two for the price of one with the reflection in the window glass!

 

That photo brings out a detail of Dean era panelling I hadn't noticed before - the "bump" in the beading below the nearest quarter-light, to accommodate the grab handle.

 

I notice that the inside edge of the door window panel hasn't been painted cream - it looks like varnished or painted wood again. (The same treatment as the droplight.) What do folk think of this? If correct, it makes life easier for the model painter! (If it should be cream, the ideal solution would be to paint before fitting the droplights.)

 

Do the folk at Didcot not have transfers for the lettering?

Edited March 13, 2021 by Compound2632

[ChrisN]

13 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

 

Painting panelled coaches is a delicate task.  I cannot imaging relaxing enough while standing up.  As I mentioned recently on another thread, I painted some Tri-ang clerestory coaches many years ago, while convalescing after pneumonia.  It was therapeutic to sit back in a chair and slowly add all those fine strokes.  Perhaps you should adopt acrylic paints which avoid the problem of smell and potentially toxic fumes when painting indoors.  I have been using them successfully on several of my recent 'builds'

 

Mike

 

13 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

Yes - the full livery was actually quite complex.  Black mouldings with a fine gold edging and a brown line inside the edges of the cream panels.  In 4mm scale, I wouldn't attempt all the details but the gold edging does affect the overall appearance quite significantly.  I showed an example in a comment on the same thread that I mentioned above.  I took a photo of WIP at 12" to the foot scale at Didcot in 2016:

 

 

Mike

 

Mike,

Thank you.  I shall study these.  I probably should have looked harder before I posted, no reason, just excuses why I did not.  As to acrylics, I seem to get on better with enamels although I have used and have some acrylics.  I have some Precision Paint, or someone similar, colours for the GWR and the MSLR coaches which I think are all enamel.  

 

I shall try and emulate as much as I can of the livery, rather than ignoring it.  I will stick with this red though and if anyone complains I shall refer them to your thread or the innumerable discussions about what colour paint was and even if it was it would not look like that in four mil.  Fortunately the Cambrian livery at the time was quite simple, although it became more complicated later before becoming even simpler.

[ChrisN]

13 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

Yes, as Mike has already said.

 

As you say the black's not always clear in photos. The clerestorey photos were the most obvious I found in a quick search.

and the interest

The Victorian/Edwardian liveries are quite beautiful, but I'm glad that I've opted for the simplicity of the 1930s!

 

Nick,

Thank you.  Just checking and hoping! 

 

My time period was set when I intended to model in 009.  (Un)fortunately I cannot easily move my time period as all the buildings would been a different colour.  I bought the GWR stock long before I thought it would be possible to get any Cambrian coaches, and back then my plans were simpler.  Then I got the WTT which increased  the complexity and the interest.

[ChrisN]

13 hours ago, Donw said:

It is very difficult to find definitive answers in Great Western Way. I do not belive the Bolections round the windows were painted Indian Red in your period . I believe they were either the natural Mahogany varnised  or  painted Venitian Red. I suspect the varnished Mahogany  looked  similar to the Indian Red.  I see no evidence for them being painted black.

The diagram in Great Western Way for 1902 shows from glass to glass between two windows

 

Venetian Red/ Black/Gold/Black/pale cream/Windsor Brown/Palecream (the wide bit)/Windsor Brown/pale cream/black/gold/black/Venetian Red

 

The text suggests this was seen as early as 1876 and lasted to 1908. The narrowest lines were the Windsor Brown shown as 1/8inch wide  around 1.6 thou in 4mm  

 

This suggests thet the photo of work at Didcot matches it except the colour of the bolections which do not look right to me.

Don

 

Don,

I think it will get simplified to Red/black/gold/pale cream/gold/black/red.

[Donw]

I have just checked some coaches I bought they have the red on the droplights which then have pale cream around that. Between windows it is just glas/black/pale cream/black/glass.   No I will not be in a rush to repaint them.

 

Don

[Nick Gough]

A side on photo, from Didcot, which may help to shew what is visible at a scale distance:

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

I think you have misinterpreted the photo.  There's a wooden panel where the droplight should be and the outer surround is painted cream.

 

I think I didn't explain myself clearly enough. This photo, where the droplight is in place, also shows what I'm talking about. The cream-painted panel is wood / wood effect on the surface perpendicular to the carriage side. 

[MikeOxon]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think I didn't explain myself clearly enough. This photo, where the droplight is in place, also shows what I'm talking about. The cream-painted panel is wood / wood effect on the surface perpendicular to the carriage side. 

yes- I see what you mean - I was looking at the outer face but, as you say the 'wood effect' takes over inside the reveals.  My apologies for going astray from your point.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

as you say the 'wood effect' takes over inside the reveals.  

 

Life would have been simpler if I had remembered the word "reveal".

[Penrhos1920]

23 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

Chris

 

The raised mouldings, around the windows, and elsewhere should be black for your time period.

 

Have a look at the photos on the Didcot website for clerestorey 1941:

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/142/no-1941-dean-third#gallery-3

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/142/no-1941-dean-third#gallery-5

 

I cover all liveries carried by get 4 wheel coaches here: http://penrhos.me.uk/Liveries2.shtml. Bolections mahogany, surrounding mouldings black.  Don’t forget the fine brown line inside the cream panels.  You can zoom this drawing in/out to get it scaled to the size of your models and then decide how you’re going to paint it.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Penrhos1920

[ChrisN]

3 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

A side on photo, from Didcot, which may help to shew what is visible at a scale distance:

 

Nick,

That is very useful.  It confirms my realisation that even with the best will/eyesight/ steady hand/tiny brush there is no way that I could paint the gold around the panels between the windows, except the large ones.

[ChrisN]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think I didn't explain myself clearly enough. This photo, where the droplight is in place, also shows what I'm talking about. The cream-painted panel is wood / wood effect on the surface perpendicular to the carriage side. 

 

No, just no.  I am not even going to attempt that!  

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

I cover all liveries carried by get 4 wheel coaches here: http://penrhos.me.uk/Liveries2.shtml. Bolections mahogany, surrounding mouldings black.  Don’t forget the fine brown line inside the cream panels.  You can zoom this drawing in/out to get it scaled to the size of your models and then decide how you’re going to paint it.

A real 'tour de force' of GWR livery descriptions.  I found myself playing 'spot the difference' with some of the subtler variations!

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

I cover all liveries carried by get 4 wheel coaches here: http://penrhos.me.uk/Liveries2.shtml. Bolections mahogany, surrounding mouldings black.  Don’t forget the fine gold line inside the cream panels

 

Thank you.  I am often on your site but I have forgotten this page.  When I get my computer back........

 

I intend to paint the gold/yellow line around the edge of the panels first but will have to see how it goes as I am concerned the paint in the panels will creep up the sides so obscuring the line.

 

You and the Didcot coach appear to show white where I would expect cream.  Now I know it was white but looked cream due to the varnish.  So should I paint white or use Precision P16 GWR Coach Cream?

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

No, just no.  I am not even going to attempt that!  

 

I think it will happen by itself when you paint the droplights.

[Mikkel]

1 hour ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

I cover all liveries carried by get 4 wheel coaches here: http://penrhos.me.uk/Liveries2.shtml. Bolections mahogany, surrounding mouldings black.  Don’t forget the fine brown line inside the cream panels.  You can zoom this drawing in/out to get it scaled to the size of your models and then decide how you’re going to paint it.

 

Very useful and nicely conceived. A small suggestion: Currently your illustration for 1904-08 shows a Third with garter. Is it possible to include a note regarding this period, where 2nd and 3rd class continued with the entwined monogram until 1906, while First changed to the garter and side crests already in 1904?

[corneliuslundie]

A few pages or so back you talked about using a wine bottle as a former to curve plastic for a coach roof. I have been tryihg but the plastic, even 20 thou, doesn't seem to be much affected. How hot was the water? I am a little uncertain about putting boiling water in a wine bottle in case the bottle takes offence.

And those photos of GWR carriages in pre 1908 livery are most useful but rather daunting. I have some Ration 4-wheelers which several decades ago were painted in the 1930s livery, and trying now to add the brown and black is proving a nightmare, as the previous paint was apparently quite thick and has blurred the borders of the panels so the brown is not staying where it is put. Apart from which the Precison GWR cream is a distinctly lighter colour and seems to have very poor covering power. I wanted a brown and lake rake plus a pre-1908 liveried rake for my 1912 layout but I fear they may all end up in one of the later liveries.

Jonathan