Cornish China clay small layout.

[dave_long]

Hi all
As I know there are plenty of Cornish experts on here. I'm interested in building a small cc layout. What I'd like advice on is what can I use as a subject matter so that it doesn't look like Trerice or Wheal Elizabeth especially as I want to build it in p4.

I'd thought about using Iain Rices exchange siding layout which is different to the trerice and WE plans, but still involves a loop, bridges and a clay dry. Era would be 76 to 86.

I do like the coal ramp at Drinnick mill. Also I've seen a great model of bag loading facility on Ian Robinsons blog, so that could be interesting.

Any ideas,
Thank you
Regards

Edited February 22, 2014 by dave_long

[The Fatadder]

Hi all

As I know there are plenty of Cornish experts on here. I'm interested in building a small cc layout. What I'd like advice on is what can I use as a subject matter so that it doesn't look like Trerice or Wheal Elizabeth especially as I want to build it in p4.

I'd thought about using Iain Rices exchange siding layout which is different to the trerice and WE plans, but still involves a loop, bridges and a clay dry. Era would be 76 to 86.

I do like the coal ramp at Drinnick mill. Also I've seen a great model of bag loading facility on Ian Robinsons blog, so that could be interesting.

Any ideas,

Thank you

Regards

If you are looking for a real prototype to model accurately, have a look at pontsmill, it has small space and some good buildings, let down by no loop and a lack of variety in locos (typically 08s though there was mention elsewhere on the forum of at least one visit by a 37)

I have thought before a might have been expansion adding a loop and maybe a slurry loading siding to add interest along with some ponts mill inspired buildings would make a good layout...

 

Another location which I think has a lot of potential is Marsh Mills in Plymouth

[dave_long]

Thanks Rich

 

I do like the look of Pontsmill but wouldn't want to tread on Rods of Rev's toes, and he's doing a very fine job in N. I suspect that Pontsmill would be too long for what I'm planning. I'm looking to try and shoehorn something in to about 5' long. 

 

My thinking is along these lines: (image is posted in another rmweb thread) Using Iain Rice's top plan only...

 

 

 

 

Instead of it being an exchange siding, that will become the dries (Or other loading facility) siding. The train would arrive along the track from the right (front) and pull forward into the head shunt, while a local shunting loco would pull the wagons forward to release the main line loco and then pulls the wagons off scene on the top right track, and then propell them into the loading siding. Also off scene top right can be another loading facility for slurry etc. The lower front siding can be for coal, or coal ramp ala Drinnick (with a little work) The other small (shed) spur could stay or go or be a cripple siding etc...

 

Regards

[The Fatadder]

Some good track plans there, looking forward to seeing it come together.

There's a layout thread on here with some very good prototype shots inside a clay works, including inside the loading dock

 

All this clay talk makes me want to get the clay layout out...

Don't think baby (or wife) will let me get much garage time soon...

[dave_long]

Thanks Rich

Still unsure if I'll get garage rights either, our eldest only does 3 hrs of preschool and our youngest doesn't feel the need for sleeping!

 

I've always wanted to build a Cornish layout, but without room for full length xc trains, clay is the next best thing, after seeing what Lee has done to a 08 on his detailing thread. With my parents running a b&b just outside St Austell it would be rude not to have a go.

 

I'm slowly working my way through the Cornwall forum, some great info in there.

[fender]

have a look at Gunheath on the Carbean branch, as well as a section of the jetties at Fowey. I'd love to do a layout based on either of those locations. Gunheath in particular would have lots of operational interest and could be adapted for a small space.

[Rods_of_Revolution]

Don't feel like you'd be treading on my toes with Pontsmill, the more the merrier!

 

You mentioned Drinnick Mill, I have often thought this would be an interesting location to model, in a condensed form! I like the idea of a class 37 with a couple of polybulks creeping between decrepit old clay buildings!

 

Not sure if you've seen this link but it shows Drinnick Mill nicely: http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/clay-country---parkandillack-branch.html

 

I would imagine having Kiln 5 (older coal fire style) at the left side front, this would be the left hand scenic break, then I'd have the Drum Drier (more modern sheet building) as the "served" building on the layout. The right hand side I imagined including the over bridge as the scenic break, but also some how including a representation of Nanpean Wharf in front of the fiddleyard. As for the coal siding I haven't quite worked that one out, although the siding looks raised, the siding is level! The adjacent tracks actually drop away on a gradient of 1 in 30 something, steep! I guess on a model there would be a gradient at the start of the coal siding which would level out for the drops? Just ideas!

 

Here's OS Map of the area in the late 70s:

 

Reproduced by permission of Ordnance Survey on behalf of HMSO. © Crown Copyright. All rights reserved.

 

 

Hopefully this is of some use!

 

Cheers,

 

Jack

Edited February 10, 2014 by Rods_of_Revolution

[ullypug]

Sounds very promising! Gunheath and Drinnick Mill are really interesting locations. Nanpean with the wharf and non clay traffic.

There were some interesting dries on the Meledor Mill branch too. Ok it closed in 1982 but Melangoose always intrigued me. I couldn't decide on a single location so nicked bits from different ones!

Whatever you choose, having different loading points for different materials (bagged, loose, slurry etc) keeps in fun to operate and gives the excuse to buy more stuff...

Good luck and remember, the world needs more china clay layouts!

[dave_long]

Thanks guys.

I like the trackwork outside drier 7 at Drinnick mill, seen on the society's site, great photos and info. (as with most new starters on Cornish railways I have the J Vaughan book in the post).

 

I'll look at those suggestions ullypug, thanks but I may well end up pinching bits from different sites too, its not easy fitting one location in a small space. The plan is probably a dry at the rear and either slurry front of scene and coal off scene or vice versa.

[dave_long]

Mickey,

That's why I was drawn to that plan, it has the right feel to it. Id swap the mainline connection to the front, and have the rest of the works off scene at the back, either for coal or slurry and the head shunt for the dry (exchange siding on the plan). 2 nice bridges and foliage around them and with a bit of luck a curved backscene. I hadnt thought or flipping it 180, with Ullypugs Wheal Elizabeth and Trerice they both have fiddleyards to the left so being opposite would lessen any potential likenesses hopefully.

 

I like the old disused slurry loading gantry that's at the burngullow site, would sit nicely front and center to the layout, would help with setting the scene.

[cromptonnut]

You might like Spenc's "Meeth Road" layout - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80461-meeth-road/&do=findComment&comment=1285553

[dave_long]

That's a fine start he's made on Meeth rd I hadn't seen the thread before. So I've had to start somewhere, so a few ratio clay wagon kits are on there way here.

 

My J Vaughan book has not arrived yet, so until I get a chance to have a good read I'll then decide on a clay dry to model, as several of you have mentioned sites I'd not heard of before, so I'll wait and see what the book holds for me and go from there.

 

Thanks again for the help.

[dave_long]

Hi folks

I've been looking in to wagons kits the last few days, while I've had to search hard for the clayhoods from Ratio, I've managed to find a few, but they're getting scarce aren't they!

With regards to the pre-nationalisation clay liner wagons, I've matched up the C107 Cambrian kit ( http://cambrianmodels.co.uk/srwagons.html ) SR Dia1375 5 plank

to this on PB's site http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/prenatclayliner/h2b7bd5e4#h2b7bd5e4 and http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/prenatclayliner/h320dc3f0#h320dc3f0 now they look similar to me (not that there is a whole lot of difference in open Merchandise wagons) although there are the tie hoops (?) on the kit that are not on the prototype. One other thing is though the Cambrian site stated they were used on the ball clay trips, but PB's photos clearly state for use in the clayliner. I'd go with Pauls knowledge on that but need to know if fundamentally the 2 are the same wagon?

 

Other than that I've ordered a few Parkside PC02a kits for the BR version and I've also read that the old Airfix 5 plank open can be made to look quite good, any one know what dia can be made from them?

 

Regards and thanks

[eastwestdivide]

Yes the pre-nationalisation 13T opens (OWV) in clay traffic did venture out of Cornwall, also to Strood, Kent. Scroll down on this link to the archived old forum for a photo of some E-prefix ones.

[dave_long]

Right I've managed to find the 51L models split axleboxes and the 2 pip BR plate axle boxes for the hoods, so they're sorted.

Does anyone know a version of the roller bearings that are fitted to the 10'wb liner open merch wagons? The 51L rollers all seem to be too heavy looking, and dont look much like the liner photos on Paul site, (BR or pre) I see that some still had spilt boxes, so some of my airfix wagons can be left as is.

 

Anyone managed to lift the roller bearings from the ratio kit (or Bachmann) and fit them to the airfix or parkside 10'wb opens for a clayliner?

 

Regards

Dave

[The Fatadder]

While I haven't removed the axleboxes from the ratio kit and used them on the wagon you plan to, I have done similar.

 

Having built a fair few Ratio kits, always using replacement sprung w irons.  I regularly end up cutting the axlebox/spring/wiron from the solbar and then carefully cut and file to remove the moulded w iron.  The back is then opened up to clear the bearing slot and glued into place on the Bill Bedford W iron etch once fitted to the wagon and test ran.

 

I'd suggest (if not already planning to do so) you replace the Airfix chassis with Parkside solbars and on both the 10ft and clay hood use replacement etched w irons, then you will have no problem at all re using the roller bearings.

[dave_long]

Hi Rich

I had planned on etched irons for the ratio kit, because its a kit and has incorrect axles. I hadn't really had a chance to inspect the airfix chassis, so hadn't thought about using parkside solebars but I'll certainly look into it. I had thought about new etched V hangers and levers (any recommendations?) so might as well upgrade everything while I'm at it. Best to have lots of detail if numbers are low.

So in that case I'll swap the ratio roller bearings over to build the liners. Should save me a few quid too.

 

Thanks.

[The Fatadder]

I would definitely go down that route as the replacement separate break leavers make a huge difference.

For v hangers mainly trains do a couple of useful etches for break bits, as do masokits

[dave_long]

Layout plan has been Templotted and using 12' heel switches I've managed to get it into just under 5' long, I was hoping to get it inside 4'8 1/2" for the scalefour challeneg but its pushing it a little bit, it needs a bit extra to actually make the loop useful I think. I dont seem to be able to get the 2 short sidings at the front like Iain plan, but may be thats a good thing, we'll see.

 

The plain track part of the loop can hold 6-7 clay hoods and 10'liner wagons. I can get 3 VAA length wagons, and 4-5 tanks in there. The loop headshunt will hold a cl50, which is the longest of the planned stock with Westerns and Peaks coming in just shorter than the Hoover. If  I stand stock over the turnout to the right which routes to off scene top right, run round and then push the rake in to the head shunt I can add several more wagons to the rake. I think thats an exceptable amount of stock, what do others think? Would such a run round and then push in to head shunt seem silly or is there any basis for it in reality?

The slurry loading point will still be on the front siding and can hold 4 TTA sized tank

 

Scenic wise I was thinking of either creating something similar to the Combe station bridge, but putting track through both sides, or going a long the lines of mirror imaging the bridge in to Carbis wharf.

Combe station: http://www.flickr.com/photos/actonwellsjunction/5997879543/in/faves-14819322@N06/

Carbis: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=339162

 

Anyway this is what it looks like so far

 

 

I've begun looking in to drys and which one to use as a prototype, I do like the older styles such as Iain Robinson's, Wheal Elizabeth and Trerices, probably becuase they're smaller and fit that small style layout. 

 

Out of curiosity when was bagged clay first collected in closed wagons?

 

Thanks for reading

Dave

[Rods_of_Revolution]

Out of curiosity when was bagged clay first collected in closed wagons?

 

Thanks for reading

Dave

 

Probably since railways first started moving china clay, but certainly from the early 1900s onwards.

 

Cheers,

 

Jack

[Rods_of_Revolution]

 If  I stand stock over the turnout to the right which routes to off scene top right, run round and then push the rake in to the head shunt I can add several more wagons to the rake. I think thats an exceptable amount of stock, what do others think? Would such a run round and then push in to head shunt seem silly or is there any basis for it in reality?

 

I've begun looking in to drys and which one to use as a prototype, I do like the older styles such as Iain Robinson's, Wheal Elizabeth and Trerices, probably becuase they're smaller and fit that small style layout.

 

I wouldn't be inclined to force extra wagons into rakes, just run them at the length which fits nicely. There are plenty of examples of short trains, Carbis Wharf was served with a single Clay Tiger or sheeted PGA, Drinnick Mill was served with a single Polybulk and single slurry tanks were often found in a short Speedlink rakes with a couple vans or clay hoppers. Especially in the Speedlink era short trains were common and could contain an interesting mix of wagons. If you have a public loading wharf you could include other traffic such as Seaweed in HEAs.

 

If you like older smaller clay dries then look to Stoker's thread, he's produced some nice drawings that would make an excellent basis to scratch build a small dries or bag store: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64222-china-clay-building-scale-drawings/

 

You could also mix new and old, there were many traditional clay dries which were adapted, extended or supplimented with newer buildings.

 

Cheers,

 

Jack

Edited March 1, 2014 by Rods_of_Revolution

[dave_long]

Many thanks again Jack.

I shall more than likely use Stokers superb drawings at some point.

 

Out of interest I've been looking over old rmweb and there were some good threads on that site. Has anyone found the perfect axle box or box/spring combination to replace the ratio (and/or Bachmann) roller bearings. 

 

My first two go to place have these

The 51L (wizard) BR split box http://www.wizardmodels.co.uk/images/51lcomp/phsbrc019.jpg This looks the part but looks a little beefy and the blurb stated they are for Heavy dutyw irons W irons. Even if the bolts were removed from the sides they look a little large, for BR open W irons. Its a similar story to the BR plate boxes with the 2 dimples, thats listed as for heavy duty W irons, but they may be ok with the side bolts removed too.

 

Then there's the MJT (dart castings) RCH box and combo http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2241A.php and (combo) http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2241.php these look small enough to fit the bill and the U shaped impression on the top can easily be filled. 

 

So both aren't IMO totally correct but the MJT one looks closest and easiest to adapt. Is there anything I haven't looked at such as ABS or parkside spares or something else?

 

Thanks again

[ullypug]

Dave

I used the MJT axle boxes and springs on my 1/051 wagons and hoods and substituted some of the 51L rollers bearings for the odd wagon on Wheal Elizabeth. I also used Bill Bedfords sprung W irons on everything. I didn't find any other combinations. I don't know if ABS does anything.

[dave_long]

Thanks

I had originally planned on using the mjt springs and box, but read about BR split box's on the old rmweb and then ended up in 2 minds.

I plan on putting Bill Bedfords on all of them too.

Did you remove the side bolts on the 51L roller bearings?

 

Many thanks

[ullypug]

Dave

I used the ones with the inverted U housing and no, I didn't remove the side bolts. 

I seem to recall needing the plates either side of the bearing to superglue to the Bill Bedford W irons.

I'll try to dig one out and take a photo. 

I use the 'heavier' heavy duty 51L ones for the more modern air braked stuff.