Railways around Waddon Marsh (Croydon)

[Pete 75C]

Just a "thank you" to everyone that's contributed to this thread and another quick question if I may?

I recall reading an article about a SR test train of former electric stock. I believe it was in connection with push-pull working. Accompanying the article was a shot of the unit being hauled through Waddon Marsh on its way to Selhurst Depot. All I can remember about the unit was that the original gangway connection had been plated over. Date would probably have been about 1970 (give or take). I know that due to the existence of the power stations and gasworks (and other industries on the line) there was plenty of freight traffic, but how often was the line used as a means of getting stock from Wimbledon Park to Selhurst? I'm assuming, of course, that the test train mentioned above was en route from Wimbledon Park.

If my plans for a layout based on Waddon Marsh ever come to fruition, it would be nice to be able to justify some ECS workings in addition to the usual 2 car service trains.

Pete.

[Oldddudders]

Just a "thank you" to everyone that's contributed to this thread and another quick question if I may?

I recall reading an article about a SR test train of former electric stock. I believe it was in connection with push-pull working. Accompanying the article was a shot of the unit being hauled through Waddon Marsh on its way to Selhurst Depot. All I can remember about the unit was that the original gangway connection had been plated over. Date would probably have been about 1970 (give or take). I know that due to the existence of the power stations and gasworks (and other industries on the line) there was plenty of freight traffic, but how often was the line used as a means of getting stock from Wimbledon Park to Selhurst? I'm assuming, of course, that the test train mentioned above was en route from Wimbledon Park.

If my plans for a layout based on Waddon Marsh ever come to fruition, it would be nice to be able to justify some ECS workings in addition to the usual 2 car service trains.

Pete.

In my day the SuX Q ECS paths between Selhurst and Durnsford Road depots were all via Streatham, changing ends there. Wimbledon Park became the name for the new depot that I think was constructed for 455 etc stock needing side-pits?

[Pete 75C]

Durnsford Road - yes, that was the name I couldn't recall... Wimbledon Park is a more modern incarnation. I certainly don't remember any ECS working over the line, I just wondered if there had been any in earlier years.

[talisman56]

The only unit I can think that would match that description would be 6TC 601. The ex-'Nelson' driving coaches had their gangways removed in 1966 and the resulting holes plated over. Although why the ECS would go from Wimbledon to Selhurst via Waddon Marsh I have no idea - unless they couldn't get a path a more conventional way or it had to arrive at Selhurst a certain way round and the only way to ensure that would be going via the Waddon route...

Edited March 16, 2014 by talisman56

[Pete 75C]

Yes, that's the one. Managed to find an image of it here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63255278@N08/6351961532

There is always the chance that the photo I saw of it being hauled through Waddon Marsh had been mis-captioned and that it wasn't Waddon Marsh at all.. I don't recall recognizing anything in the photo...

[Oldddudders]

Yes, that's the one. Managed to find an image of it here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63255278@N08/6351961532

There is always the chance that the photo I saw of it being hauled through Waddon Marsh had been mis-captioned and that it wasn't Waddon Marsh at all.. I don't recall recognizing anything in the photo...

Thinking about it, if the unit wasn't commissioned to run in pull-push mode, or had a fault preventing it from so doing, then haulage would rule out the reversal at Streatham, where running round would be much more of an event. Thus the Wim-Wom (one of several monickers) would be a sensible route. The South Western would have left it in Wimbledon South Sidings, perhaps, and a Norwood crew & loco would nip over and collect.

[45156]

Another interesting working on the Wimbledon - West Croydon was the transfer of W&C cars to Selhurst which ran via the Windsor side, then via Clapham Jn, and down via  Wimbledon  Park to cross to the Central side, then via Waddon Marsh, West Croydon, and Norwood Jn to reverse back into the yard - the drivers preferred Norwood, as it was an easier set back than Selhurst.

 

I once did a cab run on a 33 from Wimbledon, and took many photos including at Waddon Marsh from the second man's seat.  Regrettably, the shutter on my camera was damaged, and I had nothing to show for it - interesting experience, however.

[coline33]

Yes, fortunately one of the W&C transfers was photographed passing through Mitcham Junction hauled by a Class 74.   EMUs were also transferred between Wimbledon and Selhurst depots this way for the same reason.

[coline33]

Yes, fortunately one of the W&C transfers was photographed passing through Mitcham Junction hauled by a Class 74.   EMUs were also transferred between Wimbledon and Selhurst depots this way for the same reason.

For anyone interested in Waddon Marsh and Beddington Lane operations, this thread has now continued under "Waddon Marsh and Croydon Power Stations" and "Waddon Marsh 1970's Southern Region in OO". However, do not take '1970's' too literally as the posts refer to the post-WW2 period up to the 1970's. Both contain "a mine of further information" on these two areas.

[coline33]

At Pete's request, I am reactivating this thread to answer some prototype questions about the 1950s and 1960s raised by Malcolm.   However, the data I will be giving is relevant to the whole of the West Croydon - Wimbledon line (WC-W) so if possible it would be better if this thread could be so retitled as a continuation and not a new thread.   Never-the-less, I will continue on this thread.

 

Malcolm asked about steamers.   So herewith some specimen numbers photographed on freights - 30538, 30549 Q     31579, 31584 C (Bachmann released 31579 this year)                               31829 N (Bachmann)    31919 W (resin kit just released)     32104 E2 (Hornby)     32411 E6X     32416 E6    32477 E4X     32225/45-49/54 C2X     80085 Standard 4MT(Bachmann)   also noted were Fairburn 4MT.   All worked freights between Norwood Junction - Waddon Marsh - Beddington Lane sidings but through freights were usually C or C2X hauled.   On railtours were photographed 31521 H and 78038 Standard 2.

 

I would be grateful if all others interested in the WC-W would respond with the scales modelled, please?             

[coline33]

Sorry, but a correction '32225' should have read '32525' and additions of 32444 and 32543 to the C2X entry.

[sparks]

Some interesting photos on these sites:-

 

http://www.transport-of-delight.com/UK/BritishRail/Wimbledon-WestCroydon/Pages/Wimbledonbefore.htm

 

http://photoarchive.merton.gov.uk/search?q=beddington+lane&action=search

[The Bigbee Line]

Some interesting photos on these sites:-

 

http://www.transport-of-delight.com/UK/BritishRail/Wimbledon-WestCroydon/Pages/Wimbledonbefore.htm

 

http://photoarchive.merton.gov.uk/search?q=beddington+lane&action=search

Thanks for that

[roythebus]

I don't know if I mentioned it before, but my late father-in-law used to live in the railway house that backed on to Tooting Junction station where the line from Merton Abbey Mills joined. There was a row of 2 or 3 quite large houses there owned by BR. They were sold off to a housing association in the early 1980's. Finborough Road Tooting. FiL was moved to a smaller house elsewhere in Mitcham. Sorry I don't have any pics of the place.

[coline33]

Roy, did you ever note the locos working the Merton Abbey line as this was worked as an extension of Norwood - Wimbledon duties from West Yard?   I recall the Lines Bros 'Triang' container traffic but not sure if this continued on the same train to Norwood Yard from West Yard, do you, please?.

[Oldddudders]

I don't know if I mentioned it before, but my late father-in-law used to live in the railway house that backed on to Tooting Junction station where the line from Merton Abbey Mills joined. There was a row of 2 or 3 quite large houses there owned by BR. They were sold off to a housing association in the early 1980's. Finborough Road Tooting. FiL was moved to a smaller house elsewhere in Mitcham. Sorry I don't have any pics of the place.

I think Roy Ballam, father of a former colleague, had lived in the SM's house at Tooting Junction, being SM there I think, some time in the 50s. ISTR his next promotion took him to Lenham. He wound up as SM at London Bridge, retiring in the late '70s.

[Nick Holliday]

I know the period is rather before the OP's, but the second volume of Wallis photos in the Southern Infrastructure series from Noodle Books has a number of superb photos of Waddon Marsh and Beddington Lane from the twenties and thirties, as the line changed from a rural branch to an industrial complex.

[jonny777]

I know this thread has been quiet for a few years now, but these three images have cropped up in a recent online slide purchase box. 

 

I believe them to be taken in the Croydon Gas Works/Power Station area during 1966 (late April/early May if the few background trees are to be trusted). 

 

They may be of some use, and so I thought here was probably the best place to post them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[roythebus]

Nice to see this thread revived! Note the odd street lights on the road over the railway. for some reason the Purley Way had street lights suspended over the middle of the road on cables.

 

To answer earlier questions, I didn't see any trains on the Merton abbey branch. I didn't meet the first mrs until 1971 when I was introduced to the BR house in Finborough Road. The Merton Abbey line had been lifted by then. However, I do recall seeing the Triang Containers by the Lines Bros factory on the Morden Road. The whole area is now an industrial estate, but there is a still a mound in the road where the road used to go over the railway.

 

In the 1990s I started a bus company based on the Wandle Industrial Estate in Mitcham. Access was over the bumpy bridges just outside Mitcham Junction. My first premises there backed on to the railway while it was still a railway. After a couple of moves on the same estate my last office also backed on to what was now the tramway.  The trains used to run an odd frequency service , maybe every 45 minutes with a few people on. when that closed my company tendered for the "tramway replacement service" from Wimbledon to West Croydon but we didn't get the job, it went to Arriva at Croydon.

 

When the tramway opened, the difference was remarkable. Instead of a lightly loaded train every so often there was a tram in each direction every 7 minutes loaded solid all day. My company provided the first real "tramlink replacement service". There was an incident at New Addington and we were asked to provide buses from east Croydon. "But they must be Routemasters" said the voice on the phone. It turned out most of the Tramlink controllers were ex bus drivers and wanted a go on the Routemasters again! Luckily for them, when I bought the RM fleet we had new blinds made which included "Tramink Replacement Service" with the logo on the via blinds.

 

Somewhere in my collection I have some pics of the industrial diesel loco that was involved in the tramway work at Mitcham Junction.

[jim.snowdon]

'This but a small world - I spent 11 years as the Chief Engineer for the company that owned Tramlink, up to the time when TfL bought the system in 2008.

 

Jim 

[roythebus]

I managed to get an unofficial visit to the depot before it opened with my friend Tony Hultman and others; Tony being the fleet engineer for Gothenberg Tramways in Sweden. Colin Stannard arranged the visit for us.

 

As an aside, I had a visit to the new Luxembourg tram depot in September 2017, a few months before the system opened.

[phil gollin]

.

 

This train MAY have got to Waddon Marsh, or it may have turned off to Sutton ;

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MITCHAM-RAILWAY-STATION-LONDON-c1950-Loco-78038-PHOTO-6-x-4/273860642352?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

A photograph of a Standard Class 2MT 2-6-0 on "The Surrey Wanderer Rail Tour" going through Mitcham Station.

 

( Usual disclaimer, I have no connection to the seller of this item. )

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

This train MAY have got to Waddon Marsh, or it may have turned off to Sutton ;

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MITCHAM-RAILWAY-STATION-LONDON-c1950-Loco-78038-PHOTO-6-x-4/273860642352?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

A photograph of a Standard Class 2MT 2-6-0 on "The Surrey Wanderer Rail Tour" going through Mitcham Station.

 

( Usual disclaimer, I have no connection to the seller of this item. 

 

5th July 1964

 

78038Wimbledon - Merton Park - Mitcham Junction - Beddington Lane - West Croydon

78038West Croydon - Sutton - Epsom Downs

78038Epsom Downs - Sutton - West Croydon - Gloucester Road emergency spur - Selhurst - Streatham - Tulse Hill

78038Tulse Hill - West Norwood - Crystal Palace - Beckenham Junction

78038Beckenham Junction - Spur Jn - Norwood Junction - East Croydon - Purley - Caterham

 

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/640705lc.html

 

It would on face of it, be in the least steam frequented  Mainlines  in the country I can only find  6 steam rail tours in 55 years along the West Croydon - Sutton line since 78038 in 1964 followed by 73022 (1965), 34086 (1966), then 45407/35028 in early 2000’s, 34016 in 2003 and more recently 34046 in 2017, it doesn’t fare much better in diesel tours either, 2bil aside... it’s very rare track for rail tours.

 

Considering how hard it is to path a Portsmouth via Gatwick/ Redhill for steam, I’m surprised it’s not used more, though Carshalton see’s the odd tour every 2-3 years, since 2014 it’s mostly diesel legs of a steam tour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

and 

Edited May 27, 2019 by adb968008

[DY444]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

5th July 1964

 

78038Wimbledon - Merton Park - Mitcham Junction - Beddington Lane - West Croydon

78038West Croydon - Sutton - Epsom Downs

78038Epsom Downs - Sutton - West Croydon - Gloucester Road emergency spur - Selhurst - Streatham - Tulse Hill

78038Tulse Hill - West Norwood - Crystal Palace - Beckenham Junction

78038Beckenham Junction - Spur Jn - Norwood Junction - East Croydon - Purley - Caterham

 

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/640705lc.html

 

It would on face of it, be in the least steam frequented  Mainlines  in the country I can only find  6 steam rail tours in 55 years along the West Croydon - Sutton line since 78038 in 1964 followed by 73022 (1965), 34086 (1966), then 45407/35028 in early 2000’s, 34016 in 2003 and more recently 34046 in 2017, it doesn’t fare much better in diesel tours either, 2bil aside... it’s very rare track for rail tours.

 

Considering how hard it is to path a Portsmouth via Gatwick/ Redhill for steam, I’m surprised it’s not used more, though Carshalton see’s the odd tour every 2-3 years, since 2014 it’s mostly diesel legs of a steam tour.

 

 

West Croydon - Sutton has its own pathing issues which don't help.  There's the junctions north of Croydon, West Croydon station where the terminating Overground service chews up line capacity and the long signal sections between West Croydon and Sutton due to the 3 aspect signalling.  During the Victoria area resignalling both the Portsmouth line south of Streatham and Streatham Jn - Wimbledon were done as 4 aspect and I'll never understand why West Croydon - Sutton wasn't.  The recent Sutton resignalling added one extra signal on the down road approaching Sutton but otherwise left it as was.

Edited May 28, 2019 by DY444

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

West Croydon - Sutton has its own pathing issues which don't help.  There's the junctions north of Croydon, West Croydon station where the terminating Overground service chews up line capacity and the long signal sections between West Croydon and Sutton due to the 3 aspect signalling.  During the Victoria area resignalling both the Portsmouth line south of Streatham and Streatham Jn - Wimbledon were done as 4 aspect and I'll never understand why West Croydon - Sutton wasn't.  The recent Sutton resignalling added one extra signal on the down road approaching Sutton but otherwise left it as was.

 

Certainly difficult during peak hours. It really needs someone to bite the bullet and simplify service patterns even if it means some folk having to change trains. The extra reliability and capacity that could be achieved would still result in better journeys for all. It may even be that TfL needs to take on a bit more of the network.