Railways around Waddon Marsh (Croydon)

[adb968008]

There can be quite long gaps between trains outside rush hours, 15-20 minutes, and plenty of steam crosses Selhurst to East Croydon, it can be done.

 

but tbh, practically, it would be better in my mind to convert West Croydon to Epsom downs into a tramway.

 

if the old carriage sidings were made railway platforms, the exit could be ground level, indeed the whole station could be at ground level, with minimal ramps, exit being the car park slope, which could be graded to a walk on platform.

 

Then knock down plat 4 and remove the faces of platform 2/3 down to track level, and have it as double track for trams, entering from the existing street level (and removing the tram from the street).

people can walk from train to tram to bus without stairs..

 

it could be quite a considerable transport interchange with the bus station too, and makes redundant the flyover to Wimbledon. That whole area is a tram bottle neck with 1 way systems.

 

The rail service upto Sutton from West Croydon is pretty poor and unreliable, having trams to Epsom downs solves the trams to Sutton issue too, there could be a junction upto street level by removing platform 4 at Sutton (you only need 1 to Epsom Downs for trams) and running through the town centre to join the Wimbledon line terminating at West Sutton.... that way the LUL could extend from Morden to a West Sutton tram / tube interchange, with a station by the park/leisure centre at Rose Hill as a bonus.

 

Finally add the long missing platform at Cheam for Thameslink terminating services, or run to South Sutton to meet the tram / tube.

 

This way BR keeps Wimbledon 9, and Thameslink can use the sidings to the south for a turnback or continue to South Merton (if this is worth it).

Edited June 2, 2019 by adb968008

[DY444]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

There can be quite long gaps between trains outside rush hours, 15-20 minutes, and plenty of steam crosses Selhurst to East Croydon, it can be done.

 

but tbh, practically, it would be better in my mind to convert West Croydon to Epsom downs into a tramway.

 

if the old carriage sidings were made railway platforms, the exit could be ground level, indeed the whole station could be at ground level, with minimal ramps, exit being the car park slope, which could be graded to a walk on platform.

 

Then knock down plat 4 and remove the faces of platform 2/3 down to track level, and have it as double track for trams, entering from the existing street level (and removing the tram from the street).

people can walk from train to tram to bus without stairs..

 

it could be quite a considerable transport interchange with the bus station too, and makes redundant the flyover to Wimbledon. That whole area is a tram bottle neck with 1 way systems.

 

The rail service upto Sutton from West Croydon is pretty poor and unreliable, having trams to Epsom downs solves the trams to Sutton issue too, there could be a junction upto street level by removing platform 4 at Sutton (you only need 1 to Epsom Downs for trams) and running through the town centre to join the Wimbledon line terminating at West Sutton.... that way the LUL could extend from Morden to a West Sutton tram / tube interchange, with a station by the park/leisure centre at Rose Hill as a bonus.

 

Finally add the long missing platform at Cheam for Thameslink terminating services, or run to South Sutton to meet the tram / tube.

 

This way BR keeps Wimbledon 9, and Thameslink can use the sidings to the south for a turnback or continue to South Merton (if this is worth it).

 

If West Croydon - Sutton becomes tram then Sutton and Epsom lose their semi-fast trains to London Bridge.  Diverting them via the Portsmouth road isn't going to work because of pathing at Streatham Jn, Tulse Hill and Peckham Rye.  You're probably looking at a double change in the peak to get to London Bridge or a slow through journey via Tulse Hill.  That doesn't constitute an overall improvement imo. 

 

Epsom Downs is outside Greater London which would make funding a tram line there problematic (see also Croxley Met Line extension).  The reluctance to send Overground up the Epsom Downs branch to relieve congestion at West Croydon also illustrates this point.  When it comes to Sutton TfL is all about operational convenience rather than decent services hence the plan to terminate at Wallington where a turnback is easy to provide.  The idea of using the double track part of the Epsom Downs branch as a turnback is of no interest to them.

 

For 35 years I've been trying to persuade the transport powers that be that extending the Northern Line to West Sutton would be beneficial to Sutton.  By transport project standards it is a pretty cheap scheme but I can say with 100% certainty that it is never going to happen.  The response is always the same.  The trains will be full by Morden and that is unacceptable for those further up the line.  My argument that the trains being full by Morden therefore shows that the Sutton area desperately needs something better than it has always falls on deaf ears.  The other usual excuses reasons are that there aren't enough trains and the loss of 3-4 stabling roads at Modern depot is unacceptable.

 

Getting a tram line from Sutton station to West Sutton station via the town centre will be a very entertaining (ie expensive) engineering challenge.

 

In my view the best Sutton is likely to get from what is actually on offer is the tram from Grove Road to South Wimbledon.  This at least adds capacity without taking anything away that is already there.

Edited June 3, 2019 by DY444

[phil gollin]

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Another oddity on the West Croydon to Wimbledon line.

 

In the 1920s and 30's there was a private single line spur off the line between Mitcham and Mitcham Junction which led up to a series of sidings up to the huge St Helier estate and hospital, then under construction (a simple map is in the Middleton book.   There is a picture on E-Bay at the moment which claims to show a contractors train by the Wandle.  If so, can anyone tell me what the loco is (is it a Southern class, or a contractor's ?  The wagons are LMS, so I am GUESSING they contain bricks ??????

 

All good fun.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/362970215672?ul_noapp=true

 

 

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[talisman56]

Doesn't look like any design outshopped by SR or any of their constituents, so I would say it is a contractor's loco.

[Nick Holliday]

It's one of the contractor's ( C J Wills) Manning Wardles.  Possibly Mermaid MW no. 1294 of 1894, a class Q type.

See http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/st.helier_estate_railway/

 

[phil gollin]

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Excellent, thank-you.

 

Having  lived near, and used it to go to school, Mitcham Station has always attracted me as a possible Layout.   The station has short platforms (with a useful bridge if you want at one end) - a bigger layout could include its goods yard which started off feeding factories on both side, including, at various times, a gas works, coal by-products plant (I remember the stink) and paint factory.  The layout changed over the years and it ended up as a signals and track engineers depot.

 

And now, I have a bit more detail on the St Helier "branch".

 

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Edited April 14, 2020 by phil gollin

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, talisman56 said:

Doesn't look like any design outshopped by SR or any of their constituents, so I would say it is a contractor's loco.

The Southern did inherit a couple of Manning Wardles from the SECR and one from the FYNR ......... but this is sure to be a contractor's loco.