RMweb Gold pheaton Posted February 25, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2014 So a comparison between two products on exactly the same prototype (well different number) Firstly let me say my stance on the original Heljan 33 On the depot of my layout, there can be 8 33s at any one time they are 3 slim jims (33/2) 2 bag pipes (33/1) and 3 33s (33s )now when the 33 was announced it was seen a marvel compared to lima counter part....but when the 33 was released there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth....as there were "observations" that roof profile was shall we say......dodgy Now in my opinion it looks like a 33 and so as a result I bought them.....would I have kept on the single lima 33 at the time hell no....this new Heljan product looked like a 33 even if the roof profile was dodgy.... The new 33 was announced via a popular magazine but that didn't come to fruition so Heljan have placed it on general release. The object of this post is to illustrate the differences between the two models.... So where shall we start.... Head on.... Right away we see the new 33 on the left is a completely retooled body (yes we already knew this) but its also quite lot wider that the original. We can see the changes in the shape of the roof hopefully for all a step in the right direction.....on body front very little else has changed its good to see the headcode box chars are more to scale though as those in the original 33 were shocking!!! Adorning the front is a fully populated and painted buffer beam complete with steps picked out in silver, the steps are much larger than the original 33 being much closer to the prototype and having a checker board pattern moulded and picked out with silver paint. (spare a thought for the poor factory worker who fits those bits day in day out) Now the models front on there own.... Now the original Heljan 33 was noted for the lack of etched grills the new one has etched grills so lets comepare this next Original New I will agree the grill mesh is a little oversize, however the attention to detail underneath the grill should be commended as well as the mesh iron you also have the radiator frame stretchers beneath cosmetic but it serves to add depth to the area. also note the two plates below the radiator are now printed instead of moulded, since this retool is made to cover the original build (where these plates were not present) this is a compromise and to have this option may well have increased the cost of the model. Shoulder grills although not etched have extra relief so they look a lot neater. Roof....Oh Heljan you may have made a little doodoo here... Firstly the plus points....the roof is very good the fan is much better than the original and roof maintains all the chrisp mouldings of the air vents and slightly larger and clearer moulded exhaust...The fan does not rotate and is fixed in position.... But can you see the issue? The issue is with the cover over the original silencer....when 33s were built like there larger sulzer cousins they had a silencer for some reason BR did away with it and decided to exhaust the engine directly out the turbo like all of the other baby sulzers, only peaks and brush 4s retained a silencer from then on, when the silencer was done away with it was (I assume) removed and plated over however photos of 33s from above show this plate to be a 1 piece arrangement and you can clearly see on the new 33 this is a two piece place..... an example Note the plate over the roof. Also note that although im not sure I don't think the later 33s had plates over the horns again perhaps both of these are compromises from using the same tooling for the original 33 configuration finally....the bogies Like the body the bogies and underframe have been completely retooled the bogies are shown here Old New Note ive picked on no1 end for this and theres a very good reason, on the new model Heljan have modelled the vacuum exhauster outlet on the bogie, that's the little tiny exhaust pipe also the brake cylinders are now separately fitted items and the bogie features life guards, this improves the bogie immensely! Inside.... No shots of the inside but my bug bear is the model appears to still not cater as well as other manufacturers might have for a speaker this is down to the original chassis block being used....also annoyingly the model still uses an 8 pin socket....I would have hoped for a 21 pin but it looks like Heljan are using the same design of circuit board. So Good points Nice new body moulding Nice new bogies Nice new roof with a proper fan grills have a lot more relief etched radiator grills nice painted fully populated buffer beam and a lot of other improved features Bad points possible Mistakes on the roof lack of space for a speaker inside the body possible issues with the original silencer cover 8 pin dcc socket slightly oversize etch on the radiator grill Pays your money and makes your choice....but im not in a hurry to replace my remaining 33s. Thanks for reading.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47606odin Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 funny, i mentioned the horn cover on a previous topic and it was disliked, i don't know why, but the covers had gone in the bin long ago. i remember as a 4 year old wondering what was in the hole in 1974, standing on the bridge at Tonbridge west yard. so i know for certain they were gone long before dutch livery arrived! ironically, the bolt next to the old marker lights is on the wrong side on the real 33002…. I shall keep the ones i have got and see what happens in the future Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 .....on body front very little else has changed its good to see the headcode box chars are more to scale though as those in the original 33 were shocking!!! Thanks for taking the time to review and make a comparison of both models. My only thought is that the white blanks look way too big on the new version. I always felt that the supplied headcodes on all the original versions were quite accurate. Are they removable by removing the front piece of glazing (like the original 33's)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyneux Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Pheaton, A fairly comprehensive comparison (and I agree, new doesn't necessarily equal better!). Now how about a 3 way comparison with the prototype? Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Comprehensive photo review, pheaton - many thanks for that. I was shouted down on the other thread for saying I couldn't see a great deal wrong with the original Heljan 33 and from normal viewing distances, I stand by that. However, I think it's fairly undeniable that the new model is closer still to the prototype and if that matters, it will be a good buy for some. I think the other comparison is one of price. With Hattons (for example) selling the retooled 33 for £95, I picked up an original for £60. It's only £35 difference but that could seal the deal for a lot of people. I'm afraid I like them both... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted February 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2014 ironically, the bolt next to the old marker lights is on the wrong side on the real 33002…. That's the knurled knob that changes the lens and therefore the colour of the marker light. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimbus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Roof....Oh Heljan you may have made a little doodoo here... Firstly the plus points....the roof is very good the fan is much better than the original and roof maintains all the chrisp mouldings of the air vents and slightly larger and clearer moulded exhaust...The fan does not rotate and is fixed in position.... But can you see the issue? Something else: Heljan also have preserved the roof hatch hold-down bolts - dozens of 'em, along the edges, on the new model but not the old. I'd presumed that the clamps were introduced to do away with the tedious spanner work the original arrangement required. The prototype panel I measured had had all its bolt holes neatly plugged. Now I'm wondering if the clamps will be presented on the as-built model? The Nim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47606odin Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 That's the knurled knob that changes the lens and therefore the colour of the marker light. Mike. thanks. it just looked like a bolt in the pic and i personally never saw one in use on the southern :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igor Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Pheaton, Most useful. Do the bogies have separate detail parts? On the REX version, I am sure they were going to make the main central bogie suspension (springs) part an extra bit so that fitted behind so it looked stepped back. Some people have made this mod themselves on 26s etc. Also the column of small bodyside ventilators/louvres, to the left of the main grill, change position between new and old. I am about to look to see which is correct. It looks a bit of a dogs dinner with that weird roof blank where the old silencer was plus roof securing bolt heads AND clips! All very odd. Igor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimbus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 thanks. it just looked like a bolt in the pic and i personally never saw one in use on the southern :-) The way it was explained to me, was that fiddling with those knobs would inevitably mean coming into close proximity to the juice rail, possibly in the dark. They got seized up with paint after works attention anyway. The Nim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 The way it was explained to me, was that fiddling with those knobs would inevitably mean coming into close proximity to the juice rail, possibly in the dark. They got seized up with paint after works attention anyway. The Nim. I guess that's possible, but I just can't help thinking it's unlikely. Coupling the loco (any loco) to anything on 3rd rail electrified lines resulted in exposure to the juice rail. This was unavoidable and was part of daily life on the Southern. No-one other than train crew (drivers, secondmen, guards etc) or maybe fitters would have had any need to change the marker lights and they would have been well aware of any hazard like that. I must have crawled around near the live rail thousands of times (often in pitch blackness at 3am) without coming to harm. I think it's more likely that once it was accepted that the light from the route indicator box was sufficient, they just fell into gradual disuse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Pheaton, Most useful. Do the bogies have separate detail parts? On the REX version, I am sure they were going to make the main central bogie suspension (springs) part an extra bit so that fitted behind so it looked stepped back. Some people have made this mod themselves on 26s etc. Also the column of small bodyside ventilators/louvres, to the left of the main grill, change position between new and old. I am about to look to see which is correct. It looks a bit of a dogs dinner with that weird roof blank where the old silencer was plus roof securing bolt heads AND clips! All very odd. Igor Yes the main central springs on the bogie of the new model are stepped back as REX planned. The roof on the new version is an issue but a different one compared to the old version. Only the 33/1 actually gets it right. Unless of course some were actually like that after the silencer was removed. If so then Heljans new mouldings cater for the 60s and 70s while the old version is thereafter.... Considering most of REX was much later, we can start to think why they were a little disappointed. Heljans strong point at the moment is buffer beam detail. Indeed even the DP2 was excellent here, however I like to look at locos from other angles on occasion and cannot keep myself concentrated on just buffers.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Comprehensive photo review, pheaton - many thanks for that. I was shouted down on the other thread for saying I couldn't see a great deal wrong with the original Heljan 33 and from normal viewing distances, I stand by that. However, I think it's fairly undeniable that the new model is closer still to the prototype and if that matters, it will be a good buy for some. I think the other comparison is one of price. With Hattons (for example) selling the retooled 33 for £95, I picked up an original for £60. It's only £35 difference but that could seal the deal for a lot of people. I'm afraid I like them both... This new model really shows the strong points of the original. I suspect stocks of the original will be exhausted quickly (except BR green) and I for one am NOT replacing my original 33/0s with the new one. Overall both are about equal when it comes to representing a 33 from 1980 on wards (advantage to the new one on the buffer beams and bogies). Someone after perfection would need to use parts from a 33/1 in order to do it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted February 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2014 Someone after perfection would need to use parts from a 33/1 in order to do it. Someone after after perfection might just use a 33/1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted February 26, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2014 hmmm 33/1 "the man in the middle" lets compare... all 3 together we've seen the new 33/0 and the old 33/0 so lets compare the old 33/1 with new 33/0 and now the roof profiles You can see quite prominently that the statements made by many others is that the 33/1 goes a long way to correcting the original perceived issue with the 33/0 in terms of its roof profile, and that also the 33/1 is a far closer match in terms of shape to the new 33, even the front looks a different shape, but all that clutter (handrails brake pipes and rubbing plate) can deceive you. The aim of the thread was to see how much Heljan have raised there game with this "holy grail" 33 and in a lot of respects they have but they seem to have introduced new "features" to me personally it was originally a situation where I was looking to upgrade my 33s to new spec, after all these would feature better wheels and potentially better provision for DCC fitment, it was the intention to upgrade my fleet where possible (remember there is no slim jim or bagpipes on offer yet) based on the those features and not on the looks because to be honest I wasn't bothered....I went to the model shop with the intention of buying a construction liveried one as that does not feature in my fleet, but after standing in the crowds observing the original criticism of the original, I wanted to see just how justified it was, and its fairer to do it with a similar livery. But lest we forget when we talk about the position of features and spacing and so forth.....these machines were not made on the production line of rover longbridge by robots who are programmed to follow exactly same task with minimal tolerance....they beaten into life by the man from Dudley with a brummie spanner, every prototype will feature subtle differences so just because for example 065 has something in a different place to 002 it doesn't always mean that's incorrect, and also because its built by humans it will always differ slightly from drawing, im not saying the opinions on things are unjustified, but there's always human factor to consider and when these methods are used manufacture something....no two are exactly the same. sadly the reality of easier sound fitting and 21pin compatibility has been overlooked, so its unlikely I will be investing further....as the great Brian Johnson of AC/DC once sang, ive got better things to do with my money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 It seems the new shares much of the mechanism as the original. The new bogie sides will clip into the slots of the bogies of the original and vice versa. So if you want to upgrade the bogies of all three original 33s (33/0, 33/1, 33/2) you can do so. Battery boxes and fuel tanks are new mouldings, a tad - meaning one moulded line representing a pipe or something -more detailed underneath! Personally I don,t know why they bothered redoing the moulds for that part. The body side windows on the new one are a tad larger than the original and look a tad over scale compared with the prototype. Not evident from photoes of the new one is that the framing behind the side grills, is moulded in shallow relief and not printed as some supposed. Still the squares of the grill would allow scale flocks of birds to nest inside it. The roof fan grill shows what can be done when Heljan do something correctly however and this is far better than the original. Lights on the new one are far superior in analogue mode than the original which were very dim. Indeed I do not think the nose lights work on the original, bug they do on the new one. Running qualities on my example is breath taking for a model that is not yet run in, although physically it looks to be he exact same mechanism, motor and gear train. The biggest bug bear is that late version is not late and does not represent a 1980s onwards 33 as far as the roof is concerned. But Heljan have done the early one rather well now. REX would do well to fill the gap of a decent late class 33. Buffer beams are the most outstanding feature as I said before. If this is the part you adore studying the most then this is the loco for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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