Signals into siding

[Reorte]

I'm (slowly) building a layout of Kirkby Stephen, before I discovered that's a completely unoriginal idea (but never mind). There's a lie-by siding on the down side, accessed by reversing in, but the only signal there from the plans I've seen is a disc controlling the exit from the siding. My question is therefore how would the driver know to enter the siding? Would his train simply be booked to do so?

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....usually by being brought to a stand by and speaking with/being handsignalled by the signalman first. Pick up freights of old may have been booked to call at such a siding to collect/deliver traffic. The ground disc being turned through 45 degrees (cleared) would be the drivers authority to proceed towards the siding...at a speed at which he could stop short of any obstruction...probably handsignalled by the guard.

 

If the siding was described as a refuge siding then it may have been used to stable freight services whilst faster trains passed.

 

Dave

[Reorte]

The only ground disc is for leaving the siding though, not for stopping on the main line. There isn't a signal by the box that could stop a train there. Come to think of it there isn't these days either AFAIK (the siding is still there).

 

I'm talking about whatever the practice was ~1960 if that helps.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....in that case being handsignalled/advised of the need to shunt into the siding by the signalman would be the way of entering. The crew would also need to check that the points were fitting up.

 

Once the driver understood that he was to enter the siding he would stop his train clear of the points (handsignalled by the guard).

 

Dave

[TheSignalEngineer]

Railway companies of old were not keen on spending money on signals when a move could be safely done without. It was not uncommon for a set back off the main line into a siding to be hand signalled, similarly moves through some trailing crossovers. 

[Reorte]

Thanks for that. Interesting point (maybe) about the trailing crossover, which is still there (although nowdays it's just a crossover, it used to provide access to the goods yard too) that there's a disc there nowdays but doesn't seem to have been at the time I'm interested in. Would that have been installed at the time that reversing DMUs there became common?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Possibly yes, or at least when driving from the back cab became frowned upon. The Driver would not be able to see the Signalman when crossing into the Down platform without leaving the chair.

[The Stationmaster]

There are definitely discs there now - show up on lots of photos.  The only pic I can find of the diagram for the earlier 'box is pretty small but it certainly looks on enlargement to have disc for all shunt movements including setting back into the lie-by.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

...common sense played a big part in driving cab position/use in BR days. There were instances whilst shunting when driving from the leading cab meant that you could see practically nothing and had to work blind for too much of the time. Putting the secondman in one cab as an extra pair of eyes whilst driving from the other could be a better solution.

 

As long as the end result got the job done safely and efficiently then the way in which it was done was secondary.

 

Dave   

[Reorte]

There are definitely discs there now - show up on lots of photos.  The only pic I can find of the diagram for the earlier 'box is pretty small but it certainly looks on enlargement to have disc for all shunt movements including setting back into the lie-by.

Looks like I'll have to scrutinise as many other pictures as I can. I was going by the diagram in "Stations and Structures of the Settle and Carlisle Railway" by Anderson and Fox. Or there's more I don't understand about signalling, which seems to turn into a bigger and more complicated subject every time I think I've got my head around a bit of it.

[The Stationmaster]

Looks like I'll have to scrutinise as many other pictures as I can. I was going by the diagram in "Stations and Structures of the Settle and Carlisle Railway" by Anderson and Fox. Or there's more I don't understand about signalling, which seems to turn into a bigger and more complicated subject every time I think I've got my head around a bit of it.

What might not be helping you is that they all appear to be single discs, no multiple ones - they are definitely all single discs on the current 'box diagram.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The present LMR Type 15 signal box was only provided around 1974, so I would suggest looking at pictures before that date. I would expect that to be when the signalling was altered to the present arrangement.

[The Bigbee Line]

What might not be helping you is that they all appear to be single discs, no multiple ones - they are definitely all single discs on the current 'box diagram.

Curiosity killed the cat....  Looking on the net it would be nice to see the description on No9 lever, http://cumbrianrailways.zenfolio.com/p234311993/h2BFD582C#h2bfd582c

[bécasse]

When the Settle & Carlisle line was built there was already a Board of Trade (later to become the Ministry of Transport) requirement that signals be provided at the exit from sidings on to running lines. Beyond that it was generally up to railway companies whether they provided shunt signals for other moves - into sidings or over trailing crossovers, for example - and many, perhaps most, at least initially, considered them a waste of their shareholders' money. Gradually their utility in helping to operate a safe as well as punctual railway came to be recognised and many more shunt signals were installed, however, hand signalling remained common on some railways, particularly for moves made in the vicinity of signal boxes.

 

I have certainly noted other Midland Railway locations where the only shunt signals were at the exits from sidings.

 

As for the question about how the driver would know that he had to shunt his train back into the refuge siding, the distant and home signals would be maintained on. When the train had come to a stand at the latter, the signalman would display a flag to indicate that the train should pull forward sufficiently to facilitate reception of verbal instructions - which would be, of course, to pull forward clear of the siding points and then, after another hand signal, to set back into the siding.

[beast66606]

As for the question about how the driver would know that he had to shunt his train back into the refuge siding, the distant and home signals would be maintained on. When the train had come to a stand at the latter, the signalman would display a flag to indicate that the train should pull forward sufficiently to facilitate reception of verbal instructions - which would be, of course, to pull forward clear of the siding points and then, after another hand signal, to set back into the siding.

 

Do you mean the train would be brought nearly to a stand at the home, the signal would then be lowered (cleared) and a red flag displayed from the window ? - as you have written it the home is passed at danger.

[PinzaC55]

...common sense played a big part in driving cab position/use in BR days. There were instances whilst shunting when driving from the leading cab meant that you could see practically nothing and had to work blind for too much of the time. Putting the secondman in one cab as an extra pair of eyes whilst driving from the other could be a better solution.

 

As long as the end result got the job done safely and efficiently then the way in which it was done was secondary.

 

Dave   

I was a Guard at Kings Cross from 1983 - 1989 (introduction of DOO) and we (guards) had to sit in the driving cab of HSTs when they were being driven over the Harringay Flyover with the driver driving from the rear. I had to bell signal the driver to let him know what the signal was showing. Imagine my horror when, the first time I did it, the signal was RED! I gave him "one" too early but at least we stopped. Later I went home for fresh underwear.

[micknich2003]

Here is a typical example of early shunting signals, Willerby, Hull & Barnsley Rly. Note, only siding exit discs are provided, the box first opened to traffic July 1885 and closed July 1964, the signalling remained the same, until the end. 

[The Bigbee Line]

Here is a typical example of early shunting signals, Willerby, Hull & Barnsley Rly. Note, only siding exit discs are provided, the box first opened to traffic July 1885 and closed July 1964, the signalling remained the same, until the end.18 WILLERBY.jpg

What are the things that look like dummies e.g. 2.92 the point that you would set back from the down line over 6 points.  Nice diagram by the way.

[micknich2003]

They are Point Discs or Indicators, in reality, they were fixed on the point timbers, and worked directly off the point stretcher bar. They were not in themselves an authority for a train or engine to move, instruction was still required from the signalman or shunter. The figures you ref to are the distance from the signalbox, in Chains and Links.

[micknich2003]

A typical H&B Point Indicator, probably not long after the railway opened. This picture also shows some interesting PWay detail. I had to crop the photo to fit, any interested party contact me for a full print. Mick.

[PinzaC55]

They are Point Discs or Indicators, in reality, they were fixed on the point timbers, and worked directly off the point stretcher bar. They were not in themselves an authority for a train or engine to move, instruction was still required from the signalman or shunter. The figures you ref to are the distance from the signalbox, in Chains and Links.

 

So what does 4.60 apply to? Edit* I suppose it is Up to Down over points 6/10/

BTW I used to have a McKenzie & Holland NER point indicator which I got at the Malton railwayana auction about 10 years ago though sadly I don't think I took photo's of it.

I was told that one survived at Seamer till the early 70's due to "Grandfather Rights".

[Wheatley]

I'm talking about whatever the practice was ~1960 if that helps.

 

As you say, there is no disc on the 1963 diagram in Anderson and Fox. The method of working is therefore as described by Tor Gifford and Baccasse - i.e.  handsignals. The current disc reads both ways.

[micknich2003]

4.60 is the distance the Point Indicator on the "Slip" end of 7 points is from the signalbox.

[flyingsignalman]

Perhaps a little off topic but here goes.........

 

When making an unsignalled move the Signalman would give a hand signal (or white light at night), it was then the train crew's responsibility to check the points were fitting up before moving.

 

If the Signalman knew the points were fitting up ( by being able to see them or if they were fitted with a FPL) he could then give the train crew a green flag (or green light at night) to start the move.

 

If a derailment occurred during such a move, the District Inspector's first question to the Signalman would be "what hand signal did you give?"

[bécasse]

Do you mean the train would be brought nearly to a stand at the home, the signal would then be lowered (cleared) and a red flag displayed from the window ? - as you have written it the home is passed at danger.

More or less, given that the home was usually close by the box, the signalman would usually display the red flag (out of the box window) as the train drew up at the home, the driver would acknowledge it with a pop whistle, the signalman would clear the home and the driver would bring the train to a final stand alongside the box to be given instructions. This isn't precisely what Rule 54 said but was a sensible interpretation, since a lone signalman could't both hold out a red flag (or lamp at night or in fog, etc) and return to the frame to clear the signal.