RMweb Gold ian Posted September 28, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2009 After exploring what happened when you connected a Hornby Select and Elite together for Hornby Magazine, in a fit of optimism I decided to try interconnecting my XpressBus fitted kit together to see what could be achieved. Lenz LH90 Handset Lenz LZV100 Command Station Bachmann E-Z Command Hornby Select Hornby Elite Now, only the Select and LH90 can operate as handsets, the E-Z, Elite and LZV100 all need to be command stations. First up was to connect the LH90 to the Elite - the handset gets power but doesn't 'boot up'. LH90 to E-Z - the same. Next was to connect the Select to the E-Z - which doesn't appear to get power, and finally to the LZV100 which seemed hopeful as it booted up and initially responded to the keyboard - but was erratic in response and didn't actually work. Apparently plugging the E-Z command into the LZV100 doesn't work either. So based on this quick test it would appear that neither of the major RTR manufacturers implementations of XpressNet are compatible with each other or the Lenz variety. Moral of this tale: stick to one sort of controller Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZjr Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 It's silly really, personally I don't think they should be allowed to call them XpressNet if they are not compatible with other XpressNet controllers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Moral of this tale: stick to one sort of controller A strategy we have always recommended!! During the last few days we have been asked numerous times about mixing and matching control equipment between different manufacturers (especially those with ZTC equipment!) and our advice has consistently been don't. Although the theory suggests otherwise experience has shown that more often than not control devices do not work reliably between different manufacturers. Loco and accessory decoders are different, though, and should work with any modern DCC control system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted October 13, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'm going to stick my neck out and disagree with John here. From my experience ZTC equipment works better as slaves on a Lenz system than it does on its own. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'm also going to say that Uhlenbrock handsets (Fred and Daisy) work fine with Digitrax (LocoNet) command stations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted October 13, 2009 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'm going to stick my neck out and disagree with John here. From my experience ZTC equipment works better as slaves on a Lenz system than it does on its own. Andi Yes, ZTC had to be different - it wasn't compatible with itself Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDMJ Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Apparently plugging the E-Z command into the LZV100 doesn't work either. So based on this quick test it would appear that neither of the major RTR manufacturers implementations of XpressNet are compatible with each other or the Lenz variety. Moral of this tale: stick to one sort of controller Good moral. In any control system of this ilk, you only need one controller. EITHER the LZV100 OR the E-Z Command, i.e. only one thing that plugs to the track. I thought, from the paper specs, that an ESU (Bachmann) wireless system would integrate with my Lenz, so I bought one. I then checked the wiring schemes and sold the ESU on eBay for a profit, NIB (new in box)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Did you confirm that all devices had unique Expressnet addresses? Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDMJ Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Did you confirm that all devices had unique Expressnet addresses? Adrian That wasn't relevant; I had a Lenz controller already to the track. The only way I could connect the ESU (Bachmann) was to the track. Two controllers in conflict. ESU went to eBay! ESU does not seem to have the ability to act as an XpressNet throttle, simply as the track controller, same as the Lenz LZV100. A control bus system of this type can only have one master, so one had to go! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted October 13, 2009 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2009 Yes, the slave units (Select, LH90) had their addresses set. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Bachmann /ESU Dynamis doesn't support XpressNet but uses the ECoSLink standard (although I believe can't talk to a current firmware ECoS..) so wouldn't have worked with Lenz. ESU ECoS can pickup Lenz XpressNet commands via its sniffer port but still isn't an ExpressNet device. Hornby intended their Elite to be their basestation and tbh I can't see why anyone would buy one who had a Lenz system already. The Lenz Compact may work as a slave as its designed to slave off the better Lenz kit and works well in this way within its limitations of addressing etc. The Select was proven to be a bit crap in its support early on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'm going to stick my neck out and disagree with John here. From my experience ZTC equipment works better as slaves on a Lenz system than it does on its own. Andi Hi Andi I did say "more often than not" and there is always the exception! However, just because a particular combination works for one person doesn't necessarily mean it will work reliably for someone else. And reliability is a key issue here, especially if we are recommending a particular DCC path to someone who wants to start out in the world of digital command control. It only needs a small problem to knock the confidence of some people, hence our reluctance to recommend mixing DCC control hardware between different manufacturers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I think you have to search the specs of any command station to ascertain whether it is capable of being a slave to another system. All Digitrax stations are capable of being a slave to each other but use different protocols to Lenz Xpressnet (LocoNet) and therefore cannot 'talk' to them. Uhlenbrock advertise their compatability with both. I don't know but suspect that you cannot actually run both systems simultaneously on the Uhlenbrock kit. I was once reliably informed that the Trix DCC system is remarkably similar to the LocoNet. Digitrax use bought licences to guard their protocols working on the basis that anything that uses the LocoNet architecture must work with any other LocoNet device and only they can sell you the programming. I am not sure that the Xpressnet is quite so well controlled but if ZTC can 'talk' to Lenz then it must be free!! Having said all that, once you have a system why should one want to add other makes to it except, as in this thread, just to see if you can? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted October 15, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2009 ... Having said all that, once you have a system why should one want to add other makes to it except, as in this thread, just to see if you can? The club I go to have standardised on one system for club use, but I suppose it is possible that some clubs/groups would hope that a range of members controllers might work together? Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDMJ Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 The club I go to have standardised on one system for club use, but I suppose it is possible that some clubs/groups would hope that a range of members controllers might work together? If the club has standardised on a system, then, IMHO, it's up to them to provide the controllers to operate it. After all, you don't want to be saddled with a bill for a new system when your controller blows up the club system because it's not compatible! As long as their system's NMRA compliant, the choice of chips to go in the locomotives you wish to run on the layout is yours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted October 15, 2009 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2009 Why would you want to use a different manufacturer's controllers on your system? A number of possibilities spring to mind: You want a 'cheap and easy' handset for use by occasional visitors. You want a simple controller for a child to use. You want a different style of controller for a specific purpose (e.g. station pilot or banker) You don't want to trade in the rest of the system in order to use a newer, better handset that has been released since you made your original decision. You're a club and would like to offere members a choice of which controller they can use on the layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Why would you want to use a different manufacturer's controllers on your system? A number of possibilities spring to mind: You want a 'cheap and easy' handset for use by occasional visitors. You want a simple controller for a child to use. You want a different style of controller for a specific purpose (e.g. station pilot or banker) You don't want to trade in the rest of the system in order to use a newer, better handset that has been released since you made your original decision. You're a club and would like to offere members a choice of which controller they can use on the layout. Most integrated systems actually offer this. Since my system is Digitrax, I will answer with that in point order:- 1)UT4 throttle 2) Zephyr 3) DT400 throttle 4) All older Digitrax equipment will work with newer stuff and/or can be upgraded. 5) This is the only one that I couldn't cope with unless they too have selected Digitrax. If they have, I just bring along my DT400, plug in and run trains, mine or someone else's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Baron Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Ok so assuming they are setup correctly which cabs should (in theory) be possible to plug into my Elite to expand it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted January 14, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2010 Practical experience seems to suggest that the only cabs that can be plugged into an Elite are Hornby Selects. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Baron Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Practical experience seems to suggest that the only cabs that can be plugged into an Elite are Hornby Selects. Sorry. Ian, this is no way aimed at you in a derogatory manner but surely that cant be right? What is the point of Xpressnet if it doesnt actually work? Now I work in IT and know what "fun" any networking can be but there must be some config issues or setup steps that people have missed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted January 14, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2010 I worked in IT for many years and know that there are different levels of network compatibility. Using the hypothetical 'FISHnet' protocol and connection as an example: As an end-user you assume that a 'FISHnet' device means that it can be connected to any other 'FISHnet' device. As a software techie you know that a device using the 'FISHnet' communications protocol can send and receive data in that format to/from something else that supports that protocol - the hardware link is irrelevant. As a hardware designer you know that a physical 'FISHnet' link can be made using a variety of cables and sockets depending on the communication speed, link distance, ambient temperature and budget. As a marketing guy you know that if you can hang a 'FISHnet' label on your latest product then it will sell more of them, As a sales guy you know that if you get the techies to tweak the design so that your version of 'FISHnet' works better with other items that you supply rather than your competitor's kit then you can sell more (and hopefully blame the incompatibility on your competitor). As an R&D guy you know that as long as your 'FISHnet' device can meet the basic minimum specs and can be shown working withyour own 'FISHnet' devices then that is enough to get the project signed off. I'm rambling - but there are various versions of XpressNet/XBus and no-one seems to be specific about which they use or keen to explain how to use other people's kit with their version. The bottom line is that unless you can find information to the contrary in the documentation always assume that any manufacturer's control equipment will only work with their own stuff. :icon_mutter: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 would this help http://www.lenz.com/manuals/xpressnet/xpressnet.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 surely that cant be right? What is the point of Xpressnet if it doesnt actually work? Now I work in IT and know what "fun" any networking can be but there must be some config issues or setup steps that people have missed? Trouble is works perfectly well if you use the Lenz kit because they wrote the spec and their kit conforms to their intentions for it. Hornby will tell you their implementation works perfectly well because they got a Select to talk to an Elite (though its gone a little quiet on other additions at the moment). ZTC would have sold you a ??100 accessory which may not have made much difference and is why people complain about them still... So as Ian says, the joys of standards without an independent authority to certify things to. Thankfully the main DCC track standard does sort of get a lot of kit certified for interoperability so it works a lot better than the controller standards there are! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Baron Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 So you dont rate my chances of getting a Multimaus to work with the Elite then..... Back to the drawing board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted January 14, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2010 Roco kit is happy to work with Lenz - just to prove that the theory is sound, so on that basis I doubt that it will work with Hornby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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