Skirts on Locos ?

[ThePurplePrimer]

I have seen pictures of various locos with skirts fitted to protect ( I assume ) people and animals from the 'whirly bits'

 

How common was this and what were the rules ( if any ) that decided that they should be fitted

 

Also if you have any pictures ( or links to some ) I would love to see them ( I am not fussy about the gauge ) 

 

I will start off with this 3' gauge Irish one

 

Edited April 8, 2014 by ThePurplePrimer

[phil-b259]

In the UK, such things were only required on a few tramway style operations (being specified the the original acts of Parliament for the line concerned) - as even light railways had to be fenced in by law (though things like open crossings were OK).

[ELTEL]

Two examples being the Wisbeach Railway and in Narrow Gauge the Glyn Valley Railway in Chirk nr Wrexham (closed 1935)

[Catkins]

Two examples being the Wisbeach Railway and in Narrow Gauge the Glyn Valley Railway in Chirk nr Wrexham (closed 1935)

By 'Wisbeach Railway' you mean the Wisbech and Upwell Tramway - home to Toby the Tram Engine!

[EddieB]

When coverage of "The British Steam Tram" runs to eight large volumes, this is a much wider subject than might be first appreciated.  But research, in the form of looking up skirts certainly is a pleasant way to spend an evening!  (Someone had to say it).

 

There was once a whole host of municipal tramways that used steam locomotives and were governed by various rules aimed to prevent children being crushed under the motion (which was unfortunately too common at first) - or papa looking like raspberry jam.  There were various patterns of side skirts and especially front-end skirts, cow-catchers and other patented devices employed.  Such locomotives ranged from fully enclosed vertical boiler tram locomotives (often built by specialist manufacturers such as Merryweather or Thomas Green) to more conventional locomotives fitted with skirts.  Many of the familiar independent locomotive builders supplied such locomotives.

 

When it came to rural railways that were designated "tramways", there seems to have been different sets of rules (or adherence to rules) in different places.  The Wisbech & Upwell line, for instance, was always worked by locomotives fitted with skirts - the original steam tram locomotives (later LNER classes Y6 and J70), Sentinel geared steam locomotives were trialled for a time and finally by Drewry class 04 diesels.  On the other hand, the Wantage Tramway was a roadside line that appears to have "got away" without fitting of skirts to its locomotives.  Compared to Continental Europe, Great Britain had relatively few road-side and rural tramways.

 

Sometimes it seems that skirts were more often a feature of the loco design than where it worked.  Thus the Sentinel locomotives supplied to the LNER had fully enclosed motion and worked at various dock lines (including the one at Great Yarmouth, already mentioned, that ran past my Great-Grandmother's house in North Quay), but also shunted the sleeper works at Lowestoft.  Persistence of fitting skirts may arisen largely out of continuity with the precedent set by the GER tram locomotives already mentioned and the skirt-fitted Neilson/GER "Coffee-Pots" (LNER class Y5).  Other locations on other railways don't seem to have bothered - for example I don't think the various generations of steam (e.g. B4, USATC) and diesel locomotives (07) that served Southampton docks had skirts fitted, despite some road running.

 

Most of my photographs of locomotives fitted with skirts are of preserved "foreign" examples (although quite a few were built in Britain).  However, I'm sure a search for steam tram locomotives or the specific types mentioned will throw up plenty of examples on the web.

[Killybegs]

This little loco ran on the Castlederg and Victoria Bridge Tramway in Northern Ireland. Much of the tramway ran along the public road, hence the skirts.The model is built from a 4mm Branchlines kit, much modified. I imagine the cladding was removed for maintenance and never replaced. Similar locos can be found on the Isle of Man but without skirts.

 

[ThePurplePrimer]

This little loco ran on the Castlederg and Victoria Bridge Tramway in Northern Ireland. Much of the tramway ran along the public road, hence the skirts.The model is built from a 4mm Branchlines kit, much modified. I imagine the cladding was removed for maintenance and never replaced. Similar locos can be found on the Isle of Man but without skirts.

 

2-4-0w.jpg

That's a lovely model

[Bernard Lamb]

By 'Wisbeach Railway' you mean the Wisbech and Upwell Tramway - home to Toby the Tram Engine!

No.

He means Wisbeach.

None of this modern txt speak.

Always was spelt so in the good old days.

I think any train running on parts of what were legally public highway had to have skirts fitted.

Bernard

[EddieB]

No.

He means Wisbeach.

None of this modern txt speak.

Always was spelt so in the good old days.

I think any train running on parts of what were legally public highway had to have skirts fitted.

Bernard

 

Invariably spelled "Wisbech" during the railway era (although pronounced "Wisbeach", the name derives from "back of the Ouse" rather than a.coastal feature).  Of course the railway also gave us Mavis the diersel shunter, as also recreated at Chappel & Wakes Colne (EARM), if you prefer.

 

As noted above, there were plenty of exceptions to the rule about skirts on public highways - unless you are getting confused with Dr Banda's dress code for Malawi!

[Nick Holliday]

The Wantage Tramway did start off with skirted locos.  Its original services were run using a Grantham self contained steam tram and Hughes, Merryweather and Matthews steam tram locos, which were fully enclosed and consumed their own smoke.  (Scrap aid etchings for the Hughes and Matthews locos are available from Worsley Works) This no doubt satisfied the initial inspections, but shortly after opening they acquired a rather more orthodox 0-4-0 well tank from the LNWR for the goods workings, and nobody seemed to notice, having briefly used horses to haul the wagons the two miles to and from Wantage.

[Pacific231G]

I think any train running on parts of what were legally public highway had to have skirts fitted.

Bernard

Except when they didn't! This rule seems to have been almost universal across most of the world and pretty well universally varied so you need to go to individual tramways to find out whether and when they did or didn't enclose their locos.

 

It may have also had something to do with era. It looks to often have been the earlier tramways, built at a time when they were the only mechanically propelled vehicles on the road, that were required to have skirts. In later eras the authorities in many countries seem to have become more relaxed. It's not just the fitting of skirts, steam trams were often required to have a front driving position which was either achieved by making them double cabbed or by turning them at termini to run cab first (with the controls suitably arranged) and that may have been more important than enclosing the motion.

 

Rules did vary a lot and local byelaws were also relevant. For example, so far as I know the Belgian SNCV-NMVB which operated 4000kms of mainly roadside tramways all over the country was always required to enclose its steam locos. In next door France, some steam tramways such as the Jura were equipped with fully enclosed bi-cabine tram locos but others such as the Correze tramways, which was almost entirely roadside or street running, used conventional 0-6-0 tank locos that ran chimney or bunker first. Most photos of the Jura tram locos in service do though show them with the covers removed. The rules were probably stricter for tramways that ran in busier cities and the standard gauge tram locos that brought trainloads of produce through the streets of Paris into Les Halles markets each night were definitely enclosed.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Pacific231G

[sir douglas]

sometimes only the slidebars were covered like on the L&YR pugs and the rye & camber tramway

http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/colonel-stephens-railways/rye-and-camber-tramway

[Talltim]

How about a skirted and enclosed Shay ? http://www.shaylocomotives.com/data/lima3354/sn-3236.htm A series of these was built for the New York Central for use on the West Side line, specifically Death Avenue (11th Avenue) in Manhattan. Eventually the High Line was built (now a park) to remove the trains from the street

Edited April 9, 2014 by Talltim

[RJS1977]

The locomotives of the Saundersfoot Railway didn't have side skirts although Rosalind in particular used to run right up and down the middle of "Railway Street" and Milford Terrace! (Bull Dog at the top of the incline ran alongside/along Fan Road).

[sparks]

The briefly lived Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore Railway used locos with skirts, and was also the only railway in Britain with an exclamation mark in it's title!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bideford,_Westward_Ho!_and_Appledore_Railway

[sir douglas]

Talltim's link has just reminded me of a Garrett that was fully enclosed, it was on the Belgium tramways, but the only photo I can find is of a model

 

http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/bgpix/tram.jpg

[ThePurplePrimer]

Talltim's link has just reminded me of a Garrett that was fully enclosed, it was on the Belgium tramways, but the only photo I can find is of a model

 

http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/bgpix/tram.jpg

That thing is mad - excellent find

[Pacific231G]

Talltim's link has just reminded me of a Garrett that was fully enclosed, it was on the Belgium tramways, but the only photo I can find is of a model

 

http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/bgpix/tram.jpg

There's a lot more about the two SNCV-NMVB Garratts here. http://www.modelrailroading.nl/Articulation/pages/netherlands/NMVB%20850-851.htm  including  a link to a description of building the H0m kit produced by Jocadis- the Belgian firm that produced wonderfully detailed models of Belgian tramway stock. Sadly Jocadis ceased trading last year. Its founder André Witmeur had died and despite their best efforts his sons weren't able to keep the business going.

 

I've seen video of one of the Belgian metre gauge tramway garratts working a heavy coal train on a VHS about Belgian tramways. 

 

Unlike most steam tramways SNCV-NMVB do seem to have always been strict about keeping the motion of their steam locos enclosed with the covers in place. Belgian roads were probably though a lot busier than those in areas like rural France. 

Edited April 10, 2014 by Pacific231G

[EddieB]

On the subject of strange Continental prototypes, let's not forget the three skirt-fitted compound Fairlie tram locomotives built by Hartmann for the Saxon State Railways in 1902.  Happily one still survives, having been restored to its original condition at Oberheinsdorf: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4chsische_I_M.

[Pacific231G]

On the subject of strange Continental prototypes, let's not forget the three skirt-fitted compound Fairlie tram locomotives built by Hartmann for the Saxon State Railways in 1902.  Happily one still survives, having been restored to its original condition at Oberheinsdorf: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4chsische_I_M.

Interesting. According to the automatic translator the locos originally had driving positions at each end but the reversing lever is prominently visible in the centre cab so presumably the fireman operated it. That would though be the same situation as with a GW auto train (push pull)

 

For tram locos operating alongside roads and on village or town streets the front driving position might be considered more important than enclosing the gear. 

This loco from the Reseau de Seine-et-Marne was, along with all the locos on the line,  built specifically for cab front operation. From contemporary photos it was normally worked that way though the motion was never enclosed. You can see that the only cab protection was for cab first  running and the the locos were originally designated as 130T (i.e 2-6-0T)

 

 

Part of the Seine et Marne line was used for transporting sugar beet until 1965, long after it closed as a public railway, and this loco alone survived into preservation. Beton-Bazoches is one of the mainstays of the Chemin de Fer de la Baie de Somme powerful enough to handle the heaviest trains. It does nowadays tend more often to run chimney first but the runs on the Baie de Somme are fairly short and not usually in the depths of winter.  Although it's metre gauge I wonder if at 27 tonnes (20tonnes empty)  it may be largest surviving steam tram loco as none of the similar weight GER J70s were preserved. 

Edited April 12, 2014 by Pacific231G

[EddieB]

I must find my way to Oberheinsdorf some day, as I've yet to see the locomotive restored and preserved there.  As I understand, there were driving positions at each end, and canopies extended the whole length of the locomotive covering walkways between the two cab positions.  What is unclear is whether there was linkage between the driving positions and the reversing lever (and it appears a regulator is also visible within the central cab) and which of the footplate crew operated which controls - the reversing lever appears to be on the opposite side of the boiler to the firehole doors (or at least I can't see then in the picture and space appears to be insufficient).

 

The loco was rebuilt in a more conventional form (if uniquely compounded Fairlies can be so described) with the removal of the end driving positions and canopies, adopting the standard central crew positions in the central cab (one on each side of the boiler).  In keeping with this topic, it retained the skirts.

[Astockfan101]

Wow a narrow gauge cab forward!

[Rob Pulham]

Here are a couple of shots of my Tram engine, built from a connoisseur 7mm scale kit.

 

 

[D6975]

Aberdeen docks used to be worked by a skirted loco.  I think it was one of the Wisbech ones transferred up to Kittybrewster.

[EddieB]

Aberdeen docks used to be worked by a skirted loco.  I think it was one of the Wisbech ones transferred up to Kittybrewster.

There is a record of double-Sentinel Y10 9404 spending just a couple of months at Kittybrewster in 1934.  Otherwise I think the docks were shnted by two pairs of unskirted GNSR/Manning Wardle 0-4-2Ts, but I'm happy to be proved wrong!