John Geeee Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Hi I am thinking of changing to DCC for my layout to rekindle some fire in my belly. I am very tempted to go for a ECoS 50200 command station and one of the doubts I have is would it be ok in my layout in the shed in the winter. Would the cold have an adverse effect on the screen display? Do any users of the ECoS take any precautions? I have a well constructed breezeblock "shed" but I don't keep any permanant heating in it so it can get cold when the layout is not used and I dont have the heater on. Is it safer to keep the ECoS station in the house, I guess it would be easy to disconnect from the layout if need be?? Cheers John Geeeee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Savoyard Posted April 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2014 Hi John, I have a ECoS 50200 and I don't think you will have any problems keeping it in the shed but it is quite easy to unplug the power and track feeds from the back. I use mine on my layout Holcombe Brook & Tottington and so is regularly packed and unpacked for exhibitions and kept in varying conditions. I have a small wireless router attached to it so I can use TouchCab on my iPhone/iPod Touch to control the locos, points and signals. If you can make it to our MRX exhibition at the Museum of Transport Manchester we will be using the ECoS on the new club layout Lowhill and I will be more than happy to offer any help I can. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 I would be interested to know why you have opted for the massive techno switch from DC to ECoS DCC, given the expense of their systems, which has always put me off, along with my hatred for push-button, slider or knob speed control (I really want a controller that looks and feels like a loco, with rotary levers - such as the Digitrax Zephyr - but the market seems to have moved away from this). I also want to retain point and lighting control through DC, which I know how to fix when it fails....I am not at all suggesting you are wrong in any way, but your reasons would be of great interest! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted April 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 17, 2014 I would be interested to know why you have opted for the massive techno switch from DC to ECoS DCC, given the expense of their systems, which has always put me off, along with my hatred for push-button, slider or knob speed control (I really want a controller that looks and feels like a loco, with rotary levers - such as the Digitrax Zephyr - but the market seems to have moved away from this). I also want to retain point and lighting control through DC, which I know how to fix when it fails....I am not at all suggesting you are wrong in any way, but your reasons would be of great interest! Mike - I can't speak for the OP, but there is no reason to alter your present control system for points and signals simply because you change to DCC. I do have some points controlled by DCC, but also have far more with a capacitive-discharge power supply via non-latching toggle switches and Peco motors, as well as a number of Tortoise motors with simple DC via changeover switches. Converting your running lines to DCC does not require extension of digital control to other parts of the layout - unless you (possibly later) choose to do so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Savoyard Posted April 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 17, 2014 As someone who was lucky enough to come into model railways when DCC in OO was taking off, I personally would not have got interested in model railways to the extent I have if I had to use DC especially when I looked at the wiring on one of our club members American layout. They decided to make it DC compatible because of a large amount of old DC stock, to say the least I was horrified at the sheer volume and complexity compared to the simple wiring I had done when I converted Holcombe Brook and Tottington to pure DCC use, and both layouts are similar in terms of amount of track plan, single line with goods yard. Whilst you don't have to DCC signals and points for me it is one of the advantages of DCC that I can control nearly everything from the one handset and with TouchCab being a wireless option I have freedom to walk around the layout and control everything without having to go back to the control centre to change a point or signal. I have recently put on the new beta version 4 of the ECoS software and with the new VNC option you can replicate the ECoS screen on a PC, smartphone or Tablet (both Apple and Android) so this gives even more flexibility. On HBT I have semaphore signals with servos controlled by a Ullenbrock 67800 Servo Decoder and this allows me to program a bounce into the signal movement and it can be varied on each signal to give different effects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 You will have no problems with Digital systems in Sheds garages outhouses in the winter, I have used systems from Massoth, ECS , MRC ( Gaugemaster) , Lenz with no adverse effects, The only precautions i normally take is that if htere is the threat of very cold temps, either bring the Master control unit indoors overnight, or wrap it in several layers of bubble wrap.. Excess heat is more of a problem than cold, I once had a unit fail due to getting too hot the outside temp was around 28'C the sun was shining on the brick garage wall where the unit was situated behind, it got hot and failed ( I did get a replacement free from the supplier) and after that kept the unit a safe distance from the wall. ALSO be aware of electrical storms,, I know of a Digital Central controller being destroyed by lightening, the railway concerened was in a garden near us therewas a storm one night and a house about 1 mile away was damaged to the tune of around £25K. The Garden Line was about midway from our house to the damaged house, several other people reported that their Computer routers connected to the telephone lines had been damaged. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kspoons Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 i use ECoS 50200 in a garage with no permanent heating and have had no problems with cold. i think that providing you do not get damp conditions all should be well spoons Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Geeee Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Thanks to everyone for the feedback. My Primary concern was with the TFT display screen and the risk of cold weather freezing it and causing any damage if I leave the unit in the shed. Maybe I dont know enough about the technology of the display. and worrying about nothing. The reason I am considering DCC is to venture into sound in diesel and steam locos and also I built my layout with plenty of shunting in mind and although I have lots of isolated sections I still find it a nusance not to be able to park multiple locos on some parts of track. I have a lot of points so I would still leave the points powered by a DC supply and operate them from the switch board. The reason why I am considering the ECoS command station is that I like the look of the functionality, and want to make sure I have a system that does everything easily, decoder reading and programming, computer connections, mobile/tablet control, It is expensive but is there anything negative about the controller as a whole? Cheers John Geeee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 With the new V4 firmware just having been released it goes from strength to strength. You won't be disappointed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Many loft spaces can be as cold, or as hot, as a garden shed. There are only two only significant negatives that I can think of. The first is that you cannot use it as the interface between a PC and the loco if you are using a computer based program such as Railroad & Co/Freiwald's Trainprogrammer to program the decoder. If you just use the ECoS to program your decoders then that isn't a problem. Late yesterday evening ESU officially released Firmware 4.0.0 and have indicated that there are further new features to come. I do not know if that will include removing the above limitation. The second was the lack of additional throttles used to be a problem for some since Maerklin discontinued the first generation their Mobile Station throttles. The ECoSControl Radio allowed you to add u pto 6 additional throttles, and the TouchCab app allowed you to use an iPhone or an iPod as additional throttles. There are similar apps for Android and Windows smartphones. The release last year of the L.Net adapter went some way to alleviate further this problem by allowing you to use Loconet throttles with the ECoS. Later this year ESU are releasing a replacement for the ECoSControl Radio, the Mobile Control 2, which looks to be a much better product admittedly at a price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Savoyard Posted April 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 17, 2014 Hi John, We do a lot of shunting on Holcombe Brook and Tottington goods yard and DCC makes it a doddle. When I picked up the layout at the Shipley exhibition 3 years ago the layout was operated by the East Riding Finescale Group in DC mode that weekend and I had a play and found it so frustrating remembering where to park a loco and switching off the section! Whilst the ECoS may be an expensive initial outlay, it is an awful lot of kit for the price. Two controllers built in, a full size colour screen, built in computer interface and more, if you add these features to a basic Lenz system it costs a £100 or more. You could start with a cheaper system for around £140 like the NCE PowerCab but you will probably want more and you will have to upgrade which will cost more. I think someone said think about what you think you might need and if your budget will stretch to that you would save more in the long run. One thing that the ECoS can do is use any existing DCC controllers via it's sniffer port. Instead of connecting another controller to the track it is plugged into the ECoS sniffer port and it works via the ECoS. Version 4 is now available for download. I can recommend either Digitrains or Coastal DCC for your ECoS. Digitrains will be at our MRX 2014 next month. Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Just to clarify Peter's point about using the sniffer port. Any DCC system can be connected to the sniffer port. I think that some systems that do allow you to attach a DC controller to them to use as an additional throttle, but that doesn't apply to the ECoS. You can only attach a DCC system to the sniffer port, nothing else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Just to clarify Peter's point about using the sniffer port. Any DCC system can be connected to the sniffer port. I think that some systems that do allow you to attach a DC controller to them to use as an additional throttle, but that doesn't apply to the ECoS. You can only attach a DCC system to the sniffer port, nothing else. That's very interesting! When the DC controller is attached, does it operate as a DCC controller, or just use setting 0 on the loco? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Mike - I can't speak for the OP, but there is no reason to alter your present control system for points and signals simply because you change to DCC. I do have some points controlled by DCC, but also have far more with a capacitive-discharge power supply via non-latching toggle switches and Peco motors, as well as a number of Tortoise motors with simple DC via changeover switches. Converting your running lines to DCC does not require extension of digital control to other parts of the layout - unless you (possibly later) choose to do so. Thanks Ian - yes I operate DCC traction (for the sound and flexibility primarily) and DC accessories like that now, but using a Bachmann DCC with the infra-red remote controller, and I think I may need to upgrade. My decision will be whether to go for their upgrade system (mainly so I can read and programme CV's much more easily plus add further controllers - but trying to point the controller at the gizmo, wherever you are standing, is getting a bit tedious) or go for something more swizzy like ECoS. I don't think I will ever go down the road of PC or phone interfaces, or simulating the layout on screen (just seems too much like playing on a simulator), so maybe it's not the system for me. I want some levers to pull and turn!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Geeee Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 Whilst the ECoS may be an expensive initial outlay, it is an awful lot of kit for the price. Two controllers built in, a full size colour screen, built in computer interface and more, if you add these features to a basic Lenz system it costs a £100 or more. You could start with a cheaper system for around £140 like the NCE PowerCab but you will probably want more and you will have to upgrade which will cost more. I think someone said think about what you think you might need and if your budget will stretch to that you would save more in the long run. Thanks Peter, interesting coments. You certainly seem to like the ECoS. That was my thinking also, I dont want to go for a starter set to "try DCC out" when I will probably ended up having to add numerous upgrades like boosters and ways to program decoders and get computer connections when the ECoS seems to do it all in the first place. I have a fairly big layout (in my opinion) so I think I will need the extra amps that the ECoS seems to have. My layout is already sectioned up electrically into 4 sections so I am hoping that I can just unplug my Guagemaster Q and join all the feeds together and connect it to the ECoS and away we go! I am hoping I don't have to run new bus feed supplies around the layout and add more feeds if the ECoS has that bit of extra power to supply the layout compared to other lower amp DCC starter sets, I am assuming more amps not only helps run more locos, particularly if I want sound for idling locos, but is easier to feed power to a bigger layout? I am probably going to visit the York exhibition this weekend but It does not look like there are many obvious DCC suppliers there. Your Manchester show also looks well worth a visit so I will make an effort to visit that also in May as its only "down the road". Cheers John Geeeee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 That's very interesting! When the DC controller is attached, does it operate as a DCC controller, or just use setting 0 on the loco? You can only connect a DCC system to the sniffer port on an ECoS as the sniffer reads the DCC signal from the other DCC system and sends the necessary commands itself to the layout. Connecting a DC system to the ECoS is pointless as the sniffer port will not react to the DC voltage from a DC controller, and it may damage the ECoS. The ECoS does not have the "Loco 0" facility. The other system that I was thinking of is the Digitrax Zephyr which has 2 "Jump Ports" that allow you to connect up to 2 "smooth DC" power packs so that you can use the throttles on the the DC power packs as additional throttles to control DCC locos. From my understanding of the Zephyr manual, the Zephyr treats these additional throttles as input sources only and presumably has some sort of analogue to digital circuitry to produce the DCC speed command corresponding to the output from the DC power packs. I believe you can use the Loco 0 facility on the Zephyr, but that has nothing to do with the Jump Port facility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 You can only connect a DCC system to the sniffer port on an ECoS as the sniffer reads the DCC signal from the other DCC system and sends the necessary commands itself to the layout. Connecting a DC system to the ECoS is pointless as the sniffer port will not react to the DC voltage from a DC controller, and it may damage the ECoS. The ECoS does not have the "Loco 0" facility. The other system that I was thinking of is the Digitrax Zephyr which has 2 "Jump Ports" that allow you to connect up to 2 "smooth DC" power packs so that you can use the throttles on the the DC power packs as additional throttles to control DCC locos. From my understanding of the Zephyr manual, the Zephyr treats these additional throttles as input sources only and presumably has some sort of analogue to digital circuitry to produce the DCC speed command corresponding to the output from the DC power packs. I believe you can use the Loco 0 facility on the Zephyr, but that has nothing to do with the Jump Port facility. Brill - many thanks. It was the Zephyr that I have been looking at, and I did not know that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 ......Later this year ESU are releasing a replacement for the ECoSControl Radio, the Mobile Control 2, which looks to be a much better product admittedly at a price. This looks very promising. ......I have a fairly big layout (in my opinion) so I think I will need the extra amps that the ECoS seems to have. My layout is already sectioned up electrically into 4 sections so I am hoping that I can just unplug my Guagemaster Q and join all the feeds together and connect it to the ECoS and away we go! I am hoping I don't have to run new bus feed supplies around the layout and add more feeds if the ECoS has that bit of extra power to supply the layout compared to other lower amp DCC starter sets, ...... Someone may want to comment about the suitability of existing wiring for a 4/5 amp DCC system. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted April 20, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 20, 2014 If, as the OP says, he has a large-ish layout, then the limiting factor on power is how many locos - especially sound-equipped locos - are likely to be active at any one time. So a large layout with only one train running - e.g. a long single-track mainline - will not demand as much power as a smaller layout with multiple operators running trains simultaneously. It should also be noted that connecting all the existing sections to the new Command Station will indeed make the whole layout sit up and work - but any short, anywhere, will cause it all to close down, too. To that end, consider whether the layout might easily be divided into Power Districts, each with its own circuit breaker, configured to trip before the Command Station. A typical District might be a main line, or a set of sidings, a yard, an MPD - the latter three being prime locations for a moment's lapse of concentration to cause a derailment, or simply running a live-frog point in reverse and causing a short. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Brill - many thanks. It was the Zephyr that I have been looking at, and I did not know that. I don't know about other folks, but I always try to read the manual before buying the product. The manual should tell you what you can, and, by its omission, cannot do with a piece of kit. I'm a very satisfied ECoS user. Hence I had to check my facts about the Zephyr with the manual, here's a direct link to the Zephyr manual if you want to read it. Section 25.2 on page 35 covers the Jump Ports. If you, or anyone else, fancies an ECoS, here's a link to the page on the ESU web site where you can download the latest ECoS manual. As ESU release updates from time to time, the manual is a little out of date, it was written for Firmware 3.4.0, and the latest ECoS firmware is version 4.0.0, but the main functionality is all there. By the way in Firmware V4.0.0 the ECoS now supports all functions up to F28, up to and including Firmware 3.7.0 it only supported up to F23. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I don't know about other folks, but I always try to read the manual before buying the product. What kind of man are you? A real man never reads the instructions........ Seriously, many thanks for those links. I WILL read them! Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Savoyard Posted April 20, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 20, 2014 What's a manual? .... :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted April 20, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 20, 2014 What's a manual? .... :-) In automotive terms, the opposite of an automatic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Geeee Posted April 20, 2014 Author Share Posted April 20, 2014 If, as the OP says, he has a large-ish layout, then the limiting factor on power is how many locos - especially sound-equipped locos - are likely to be active at any one time. So a large layout with only one train running - e.g. a long single-track mainline - will not demand as much power as a smaller layout with multiple operators running trains simultaneously. It should also be noted that connecting all the existing sections to the new Command Station will indeed make the whole layout sit up and work - but any short, anywhere, will cause it all to close down, too. To that end, consider whether the layout might easily be divided into Power Districts, each with its own circuit breaker, configured to trip before the Command Station. A typical District might be a main line, or a set of sidings, a yard, an MPD - the latter three being prime locations for a moment's lapse of concentration to cause a derailment, or simply running a live-frog point in reverse and causing a short. The way my layout is I can have two locos running around a twin track loop whilst I shunt about in a terminous or a couple of yards.So 3 locos at most moving and then see what happens if I have a couple of other sound fitted locos idling away? The layout is already divided into 4 sections for DC cab control swirched by 4 rotary switches with an power on/off switch for each. Therefore my plan is to set all the rotarys to position 1, take out the feeds from Controller 1 on my Guagemaster Q, plug them into the ECoS, flick the switches to on and away I go. From what I have read so far if I do get a short then I can at least isolate it to one of the sections by turning the other 3 off in sequence. Also this way I think I can still keep My Q controller wired to the other 3 rotary positions if I don't get round to sticking decoders in some of the older locos so at least I can still run them under DC if I want. We will soon find out as I went to the York Show today and bought an ECoS 50200 Cheers John Geeeee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 What's a manual? .... :-) Isn't he a Spanish Waiter ? . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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