MRJ 231

[Tim Horn]

Tony, I think we will agree to disagree. 

 

To me the laser is a tool, nothing more. Same as a blade, hand saw, drill . . . . Why use plasticard brickwork that is wrong, when I can do it much better my self. I certainly couldn't cut the pattern in the glass blocks by hand . . . . 

 

 

Cheers
Tim

[Torper]

Tim, the bit I took (and still take) issue with was your statement that "I personally don't see where the difference is between cutting it out by hand or using a machine to do it".  If that's the case, then it must logically follow that there's no difference in putting the building together by hand or having a machine do it.  Of course, i may be barking up the wrong tree entirely because I have no idea what laser cutting involves - I'm assuming that it involves producing a design on a computer, then uploading that design into a machine that then cuts it out while you go and have a cup of tea.  If that's wrong and you actually manually guide the laser throughout the process, then please accept my apologies as I would then have no quibble with your statement.

 

But if my rather simplistic idea of how it's done is right, then lets look at it further.  I am aware that there is a process known as 3D printing.  I have no idea how sophisticated this is at the moment, but no doubt its capabilities will rapidly increase.  In that event, you could presumably feed your computerised design into a 3D printer and that would then spit out the completed building, possibly even one day painted and decorated. You'd have designed it, possibly chosen the material, and decided on the colours. Would there again be no difference between doing that and building it by hand?

 

Don't get me wrong - if I had access to laser cutting and the ability to do the necessary computer designs, I'd take full advantage of it as i think that the results can often (but not always) be terrific.  But I still think that there's a considerable difference between doing that, or doing it by hand.

 

DT

[Paul Cram]

Tim, the bit I took (and still take) issue with was your statement that "I personally don't see where the difference is between cutting it out by hand or using a machine to do it".  If that's the case, then it must logically follow that there's no difference in putting the building together by hand or having a machine do it.  Of course, i may be barking up the wrong tree entirely because I have no idea what laser cutting involves - I'm assuming that it involves producing a design on a computer, then uploading that design into a machine that then cuts it out while you go and have a cup of tea.  If that's wrong and you actually manually guide the laser throughout the process, then please accept my apologies as I would then have no quibble with your statement.

 

But if my rather simplistic idea of how it's done is right, then lets look at it further.  I am aware that there is a process known as 3D printing.  I have no idea how sophisticated this is at the moment, but no doubt its capabilities will rapidly increase.  In that event, you could presumably feed your computerised design into a 3D printer and that would then spit out the completed building, possibly even one day painted and decorated. You'd have designed it, possibly chosen the material, and decided on the colours. Would there again be no difference between doing that and building it by hand?

 

Don't get me wrong - if I had access to laser cutting and the ability to do the necessary computer designs, I'd take full advantage of it as i think that the results can often (but not always) be terrific.  But I still think that there's a considerable difference between doing that, or doing it by hand.

 

DT

So following your logic an etched kit is the same as a ready to run model is it?

[t-b-g]

I am very happy to agree to differ. Different approaches to tackling modelling are one of the things that make our hobby so interesting. The only idiots are the ones who say that there is only one way to do a modelling job!

 

Tony

[dj_crisp]

Hi Tim,

A bit off topic but do you have any articles on how you produced the cad drawings for the bridge or any of your projects for a complete novice like myself!

Cheers

Will

[Jol Wilkinson]

I recently designed some parts for a LNWR covered footbridge to be laser cut. I had to draw the bridge to know what to make and using the drawings to produce some of the more difficult but repetitive parts by getting them laser cut seemed obvious. All the other bits (stairs, roofs, panel overlay strip, etc) were hand cut from Evergreen strip and sheet. I see using the laser cutting service as no different from buying plastic strip that someone else has already cut to size, but the "design" and construction is all my own work.

 

So when can anyone say this or that technique isn't "proper" modelling, when they take advantage of materials that someone has already produced for them?

 

Jol

[-missy-]

Hi.

 

Its strange how its always people who dont understand how to or dont have the ability to use things like 3D printing and laser cutting are the people who always say its not proper modelling. Technology will always improve and the approach people take to making things will evolve, so why not take advantage of that? These things are here to stay so its pointless ignoring them, embrace the technology, think more what it can do to help, dont dismiss it.

 

Julia.

[Torper]

So following your logic an etched kit is the same as a ready to run model is it?

 

No, Paul - on the contrary, it seems to me that that's the logical conclusion to Tim's assertion that there is no difference between cutting something out by hand or leaving the process to a machine.  I'm not trying to suggest that one approach is better than the other in producing a model railway, but I maintain that there is a difference between producing something by hand or having it produced by a machine (in my case, the latter will usually work better than the former, but that doesn't stop me trying).  

 

DT

[Tim Horn]

Hi Torper, 

 

I've always talked about cutting out materials for my buildings. I tend not to model locos or stock, I just don't have the time at the moment, and my passion is for building buildings which no one else makes. I think most people tend to be stock orientated, and I'm trying to bring the structure side up to the same level of detail we now have on RTR stuff. Be it by producing it by my hand or machine, makes no difference to me as it's my skill?!! (     ) at the end of the day. To me drawing an outline on a piece of plasticard, using a metal ruler and cutting it out by hand is the same as drawing it out on the computer and telling the laser cutter what to do with that drawing and how to cut it (depth of cut, speed of cut) They have one thing in common, It's me that's in control on both ways. I think it's a bit unfair to jump to the massive conclusion that I think that producing hand work is the same as producing ready to run stuff. I've got great respect for Bachmann et al, they are skilled at their jobs, the same way as the late Guy Williams was at his. Just different approaches to the end game.

 

Cheers

Tim

[-missy-]

 I maintain that there is a difference between producing something by hand or having it produced by a machine

 

DT

 

So where does a manual lathe or milling machine fit? Where is the changeover point? When a machine is fitted with a digital readout or has an electric motor instead of a hand powered machine? What is your definition of a machine? Is a scalpel or ruler a machine?

 

Julia.

[Horsetan]

....to which could be added: "Are you a machine?"

[Kenton]

iRobot - I just put kits together.

[Torper]

What is your definition of a machine? Is a scalpel or ruler a machine?

 

No.  Oxford Dictionary definition of machine: "An apparatus using mechanical power and having several parts, each with a definite function and together performing a particular task".

 

So do you not think there is any difference between something that is hand made and something that is produced by machine?  I suspect that the craft furniture maker near us would be horrified to be told that there is no difference between his carefully handcrafted products and those in the furniture warehouses that have been mass produced by machine.

 

But you are all of course missing the point.  I've nothing at all against producing laser cut buildings, or using machines or computers or whatever.  I'm sure that the buildings that Tim produces are great and i respect his skill in doing the necessary CAD drawings.  All I am contesting is Tim's initial statement that there is no difference between cutting something out by hand or using a machine to do it.  I am not suggesting that one is inferior to the other, merely that they are different.  And just in case it all gets a bit heated, I'll leave it there.  If you don't agree, then you don't agree.

 

DT

[buffalo]

No.  Oxford Dictionary definition of machine: "An apparatus using mechanical power and having several parts, each with a definite function and together performing a particular task"....

 

So that would include a pair of pliers, wouldn't it? Generic language dictionaries rarely help to clarify technical discussion

 

Nick

[Tim Horn]

No.  Oxford Dictionary definition of machine: "An apparatus using mechanical power and having several parts, each with a definite function and together performing a particular task".

 

So do you not think there is any difference between something that is hand made and something that is produced by machine?  I suspect that the craft furniture maker near us would be horrified to be told that there is no difference between his carefully handcrafted products and those in the furniture warehouses that have been mass produced by machine.

 

But you are all of course missing the point.  I've nothing at all against producing laser cut buildings, or using machines or computers or whatever.  I'm sure that the buildings that Tim produces are great and i respect his skill in doing the necessary CAD drawings.  All I am contesting is Tim's initial statement that there is no difference between cutting something out by hand or using a machine to do it.  I am not suggesting that one is inferior to the other, merely that they are different.  And just in case it all gets a bit heated, I'll leave it there.  If you don't agree, then you don't agree.

 

DT

Hi Torper, 

 

I don't think it's heated, it doesn't have to be. I do ask that my quote is in full please, I said "I personally don't see where the difference is between cutting it out by hand or using a machine to do it" in context to my building work. I accept that many people will never accept laser cutting or 3d printing as a medium for modelling. I have very limited skill in CAD drawings, starting from scratch 2 years ago, but I know enough to get where I want to be when I'm asked to build a building for someone

 

Cheers

Tim

[Tim Horn]

Hi Tim,

A bit off topic but do you have any articles on how you produced the cad drawings for the bridge or any of your projects for a complete novice like myself!

Cheers

Will

Hi Will, 

 

Happy to help if I can. Can you pm me or send me an e-mail.

 

Cheers

Tim

[BlackRat]

I'm sure that not that long ago, using Scalelink etched window frets, embossed plastic card and Evergreen plastic section would have been looked on in a similar way by some.............

 

Laser cutting, 3d printing are all part of modelling now, and the futures looking rosy!

 

Like Jim SW once said, modelling is no more than cutting or sticking two pieces together, drilling or filling a hole.

 

Does it matter where or how the two pieces are made or manufactured?

 

Even the buildings at Pendon are made from bought in manufactured card........

[The Stationmaster]

In a post above,a comment was made about a craftsman furniture maker. I doubt very much that his / her workshop is devoid of any machine tools. A saw bench and a planer /thicknesser are pretty well essential. They improve accuracy and reduce labour time. The skill is in the design and construction techniques; i.e cutting and sticking two pieces together.

Oddly, except when he was working for a local building firm, my dad used to manage without much at all in the way of power tools of any sort - but then he did serve his (5 year) apprenticeship in the 1930s and the village where he lived didn't even have many houses on mains electricity back then.  All his furniture making was done using hand tools but it wasn't his full time job although in his later years he did spend some time making antique furniture although he obviously had to do that by traditional methods otherwise something might not have looked right.

 

However that makes no difference to the debate - some folk are happy doing it all with hand tools - as he was - while others are keen to look at and use developments in techniques and materials.  And both types of people are making something, whatever their methodology and tools.

[Jon020]

So glad that this is such a good discussion of the content of MRJ 231, but I do find myself thinking that it's gone more that a little off topic. Lots of great modelling in the issue in my opinion... but I know that's just my opinion, and evidently even those that have nothing nice to say are willing to share their thoughts on here... some of which is even constructive.

Jon (enjoying the magazine... not enjoying this thread)

[BR60103]

This issue has now arrived (last Friday?) at 2 bookstores in Guelph.

 

So now I can start responding to those posts back on page 1.

[iak]

This issue has now arrived (last Friday?) at 2 bookstores in Guelph.

 

So now I can start responding to those posts back on page 1.

 

I like ones attitude...

[davknigh]

This issue has now arrived (last Friday?) at 2 bookstores in Guelph.

 

So now I can start responding to those posts back on page 1.

It's worth noting that it took less than the usual 6 weeks for this issue of MRJ to cross the Atlantic. They must be double banking the oars on the mail galley.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[iak]

Nah...

They are feeding the gerbils Red Bull and black coffee.....................

 

Arf