Suburban coaches

[Jock67B]

Good afternoon folks,

I am trying to ascertain the most common type of suburban coaches used on the Darvel branch as well as the G&SWR lines in general in the mid to late fifties. Although I travelled on such trains a lot in those days, I was lucky enough to do so on a 2P footplate because dad was a Hurlford driver!

Any help would be much appreciated. (I also intend to post in the modelling questions area!)

Thank you, and kind regards,

Jock67B.

[pH]

Jock, "Ayrshire's Last Days of Steam" by WAC Smith contains pictures from about 1955 to 1966. Many are of local passenger trains, including a couple of trains to or from Darvel. You would have to do the identifying of particular coaches yourself.

[Jamie]

Going by 'general impressions' of non-corridor stock in Ayrshire in BR days, my thoughts are the majority of stock being of LMS designs, but intermixed with some BR suburbans and LNER-design Thompson non-gangwayed.  The earlier you go, then you'd probably find survivors from the pre-grouping companies.  The mix makes it really appealing, and can be represented nicely without too much work in 4mm.

 

If I were to dream up a basic, but interesting branchline set it'd probably look like this: LMS brake third and a Thompson lavatory composite.  Then I would strengthen it with all-thirds and/or more brake ends. 

Here's a nice one, even a 2P at the head: https://www.flickr.com/photos/64215236@N03/6348348652

The brake third in that pic actually might predate the LMS - I'm a bit out of my comfort zone with early stuff.

[luckymucklebackit]

Think this could be "time dependant", as immediately following nationalisation the lines kept their LMS/LNER identity, but with the introduction of DMUs from 1957 and the spread of electrification from 1960 onwards any stock in good condition would have been dispersed to replace coaches in poor condition elsewhere irresspective of thier origin, so towards the end of their life you could find a lovely mix of coaches.

 

Jim

[Jock67B]

Jamie and Jim, thanks for the response - I thought it would be silly to just put the normal 'train set rake' behind the loco. I seem to recall some strange mixes but it is all such a long time ago since I lived on top of the shed where dad was a driver! Looks as if, on the bright side, I might be able to stock with some odd second hand units which may save me quite a bit. Love the picture Jamie, and it's a Hurlford engine. It is just possible that I could have ridden on the footplate of that very one as when returning to Barleith halt from Saturday morning pictures in Kilmarnock, I normally got to ride in the loco with one of my dad's chums much to the disgust of my friends!

Thanks again for triggering the memories,

Kind regards,

Jock.

PS Jim, followed the link to your thread so don't be surprised to find some new ratings there! Still finding my way around RMweb. J.

[Ben Alder]

Steam Days Sept 2013 had an interesting illustrated article on ScR non- corridor stock that might be of some help to you.

[Mad McCann]

That coach behind the Thompson could even be an old Caledonian 57' non-gangwayed vehicle. There were one or two late survivors and as I understand it, Jim Smellie does some of these vehicles. Well, if you don't build one now, I will! :-)

[Aberbrothock]

Hi there

 

I had much the same predicament as you with my model of the Arbroath area in the 1950's.

I'm very lucky that the excellent book on the Arbroath and Forfar Railway, published by the Oakwood Press, by Niall Ferguson, has a very detailed section on the coaching stock used in the grouping period, which is very much on the lines of some of the previous replies you have had - i.e. pre-group stock initially, progressively replaced by LMS and LNER stock. 

I don't know if Oakwood have ventured into your neck of the woods, but I find it amazing just how much information is "out there."

I regularly trawl through the historical photo sets which are most useful.

 

For my D & A trains, I am assembling a set of Gresley LNER non-gangwayed coaches, ( two all-thirds, one lav. comp., and a brake third **), all as photographed during the 1950's, while the A & F trains will be catered for at least initially by old, really old, Graham Farish suburbans, but should be ex-LMS or Caley stock, which can be acquired later.......

 

** The Hornby brake third is due back in production later in the Summer, if Hattons etc., have been given the correct info.

 

Endless fun!

 

Ken

[Wheatley]

That coach behind the Thompson could even be an old Caledonian 57' non-gangwayed vehicle. There were one or two late survivors and as I understand it, Jim Smellie does some of these vehicles. Well, if you don't build one now, I will! :-)

It's got duckets though, which the CR vehicles didn't have, and the bogies look like 9' LMS rather than CR Fox bogies. Pretty sure it's a Period 1 non-corridor brake third. Comet M13 - http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/modules/viewcatpic.php/7/674.

[Mad McCann]

Happy to bow to a more knowledgable source on this one, Wheatley. In that 1910-28 period, West Coast coach styles adopt a certain similarity of line.

[60B]

Happy to bow to a more knowledgable source on this one, Wheatley. In that 1910-28 period, West Coast coach styles adopt a certain similarity of line.

 

I was wondering myself on its origins. By that period, the designs of MR, CR and LMS are similar with the raised beading and by the time the 50s roll around, various repairs would throw more veg in the soup.

[Wheatley]

They were indeed similar, even the G&SWR was in the 57' elliptical roofed camp by the Grouping (for gangwayed stock at least). I don't know enough about MR coaches to rule out it being one of theirs either.

[60B]

Period 1 LMS coaching stock was more or less a retread of MR practise but given the date, I'd put money on it being LMS.

[Jock67B]

Thanks 'Wheatley' for the 'Comet' link. Doesn't look cheap but very good indeed. The question is, how hard a task would it be for a fairly inexperienced returning modeller of the old f*rt era?

Kind regards,

Jock.

[billbedford]

They were indeed similar, even the G&SWR was in the 57' elliptical roofed camp by the Grouping (for gangwayed stock at least). I don't know enough about MR coaches to rule out it being one of theirs either.

 

The midland didn't build any 57' non-corridor coaches.

[Mad McCann]

Cheers Bill. I didn't know that.

[Wheatley]

It depends how confident you are at soldering up brass kits. If you are, then the Comet ones are straightforward and (as far as I can remember) you get everything you need in the kit except wheels, couplings, paint and transfers.

 

If you aren't that brave then Comet will sell you the sides only for £12. Dapol will sell you a plastic Period 2 lav brake for about the same (or less if you buy the dismantled version), chop out most of the sides with a Stanley knife/razor saw and Evo-stick the brass sides to what's left. You'll have to paint it yourself either way.

 

 

http://Dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=177_60_87_220&product_id=1331

[coachmann]

The coach behind the 2P was a bog standard LMS Period non-corridor brake third coupled to a Thompson lav compo. However, one has to be careful in Scotland, as the LMS built coaches specifically for that part of the country. Many looked like Period II flush sided stock when it fact they were Period I by outside contractors. Also, coaches built for Scotland often did not have an English counterpart.

[Jock67B]

The coach behind the 2P was a bog standard LMS Period non-corridor brake third coupled to a Thompson lav compo. However, one has to be careful in Scotland, as the LMS built coaches specifically for that part of the country. Many looked like Period II flush sided stock when it fact they were Period I by outside contractors. Also, coaches built for Scotland often did not have an English counterpart.

Thanks Larry, looks in that case as if I might be able to buy something similar! Occurs to me, as funds are currently tight,that almost anything goes in the region in the late 50s. If I won the lottery, I'd ask you to make me a representative set!

Kind regards,

Jock.