What are the things that make you reluctant to move into more finescale modelling

[Mark]

A discussion that has recently begun in our local group is based around how to encourage people into the fine scale end of the hobby. Rather than making broad assumptions I thought it might be interesting to pose the question here.

 

So what are the things that make you reluctant to move into more adventurous modelling assuming of course you want to?

 

I have listed a few ideas below.

 

Please don't degenerate this into a gauge war, I consider fine scale modelling applies to all scales and gauges, since the skills are universal.

 

Here is my list (Not in any particular order):

 

Having enough time

Soldering

Baseboard and support construction

Compensation -Rigid, Sprung, Rocking axles

Forming metal

Track Construction

Turnout Construction

Painting

Scenery

Wiring

Chassis construction

Research

Kit construction

Structures

Turnout operating mechanisms

Signal operating mechanisms

Reliability

Patience

Wary of so called 'Experts'

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

 

 

 

[TheQ]

None of the above!!

1  I chose EM because I didn't think P4 would be practical for the outdoor loop of my layout, I also had some stuff EM from many years ago.

2  I effectively count rivets for a living, that is I measure electronics to 1/10 of a part in a million, I need a break from that!

[forest2807]

Doesn't this depend on one's definition of "finescale"?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Another 'none of the above'.

 

When I wanted to, it was because it was the way to work with a group to produce a model railway better - by far- than what could be purchased. And that group had decided that EM and P4 were what they were going to use. I would have been happy enough with a finescale approach in OO.

 

Now that much higher grade RTR, kits and supporting ancilliaries are available for purchase, the good appearance and fine running is readily available to the solo modeller. And I know from experience that for my skill set, the likelihood of a reliably running group of S4 pacifics and others with outside gear is pretty small, so we won't go there

[Kenton]

 

Doesn't this depend on one's definition of "finescale"?

I guess you are right. I am probably another "None of the above" but at the same time "all of the above"

 

Am I simply content with what I do now? Perhaps that is closer to the truth. I "construct" kits in metal and plastic, have no fear of soldering, wiring, DCC or DC, baseboards .... I build in most scales and gauges. But to go that extra step to something finer scale in terms of a layout. I just cannot think of anything really stopping me other than the thought why do I really want to? What will I get out of it? Can I be bothered?

[TonyA]

Probably "having enough time". There are enough distractions (or disorganisations) in my life to restrict the amount of building that I do. Adding the complexity of finescale would probably delay things more.

 

Another factor is the desire to produce something reasonably satisfying and different with mainly commercially available items, which would hopefully encourage a beginner to try and do the same or better. It took me a very long time to actually produce anything satisfying, mainly due to lack of confidence in my own skills.

 

Tony

[richard brown]

What have put me off fine scale are

time (it tock me 3 years to get my current track layered)

Cost ( this is parts and the cost in time eg it takes 5 minutes to get OO stock on my layout but how long with fine scale)

Compromise ( I can get away with things in OO which would show up in fine scale)

The do it this way team ( people who say the only way to do something is like this)

I am to young ( I'm 30 when I go to show people see me and ignore me so I can't find how to do things)

 

Richard

[MJI]

My reason is cost and practicaility

 

cost of lots of new wheels and track.

 

practicality of 4mm scale drop head buck eyes on lots of coaches

[highpeak]

This is an interesting thread. I am not sure it needs a big discussion as to what constitutes fine scale, there've been a number of those, and it certainly doesn't need a gauge war.

My interests are split between US (Maine Central/Boston and Maine in the transition period where steam and diesel were both in use) and UK (Peak District in roughly the same sort of era).

For the US, I looked at P87 and decided it wasn't for me because I didn't have the space and re-wheeling steam locomotives is quite a challenge. So the standard I have adopted is to build rolling stock from various kits or kitbashed RTR with a reasonable level of detail, and to build my own track to the best of my ability. I settled on using Central Valley tie bases for the track because they have a pretty decent representation of the spike and tie plate detail, the turnout bases work quite well as a jig with strategic PCB timbering for strength. Detailed, painted and weathered it blends together quite well, at least when I take the Optivisor off.

For the UK, if I live long enough, my intention is to build a small P4 layout (roughly along the lines of the Scalefour Society's current challenge, so about 5' long plus a storage cassette) and then a twelve foot shelf layout using RTR locomotives but building my own track. I suppose I want the P4 layout because the appearance of the track is so good and I want to see if I can do it.

The biggest challenge I have found is building a decent chassis. I am getting along reasonably well with a Brassmasters chassis for the Bachmann 3F, but my experience with it suggests that this is not my main area of expertise and the thought of trying to tackle anything like a Stanier 8F makes me wake up in a sweat in the middle of the night. Perhaps if I lived in the UK and could attend a club or at least work with somebody who has the skills needed I might make more progress. Scaleforum sounds like a worthwhile trip if I can ever get the time away from home and work.

I have found that building track is not as difficult as many think, though thus far I've just built standard turnouts and one diamond crossing which all appear to work. The part that consumes the most time is the cosmetic detailing and weathering, the actual construction isn't that long a job.

So what I would add to Mark's list is "lack of instructors". It's alleviated by the wealth of information on this and other web sites and in magazines like MRJ and the Scalefour magazine, but I can't help but think a monthly visit to a good club with some genuine experts would be invaluable.

[JimF51]

As another US denizen, I'll agree with Highpeak. Not having that 'face to face' option is a big factor. Kit building of locos is almost non existent over here, and rolling stock kits are more the 'shake the box" type. Having to mail order each and every item to go finescale is a right pain in the posterior.

I'm lucky in that my UK interest is the SER/SECR, early 1900's, and I have found a kit mfr. from whom I can order just about all my required loco kits and parts, and  rolling stock items from. He also is very communicative, answering any and all my questions so far. But it will most likely be standard O, to simplify part of the process.

 

Highpeak, I can still remember standing on the Washington Street bridge, outside of Sullivan Square in Charlestown, watching the new diesels working their trains.

 

Jim F

[PatB]

A few reasons.

 

As an engineer, I'm capable of meeting most of the technical challenges of finer scale standards but I'm rubbish at the cosmetics which are more noticeable. No point going to S7 but still painting with a chewed stick.

 

I'd like my layout, should it ever happen, to not be constrained to being a dead straight line.

 

Finescale evangelists have put me off. I prefer not to take myself or my modelling as seriously as some seem to.

[Black Sheep]

I'm working in N,

 

2mm finescale is tempting, however in my mind it prevents selling on / changing stock if my interests change. It also would prevent me running stock on the club's N gauge layout.

 

I have tried building track and have a 2mm track jig with a length of track stuck in it

[cromptonnut]

Again, "define finescale".  Peco code 75 OO track is labelled as "finescale" but is not as finescale as EM/P4 is.

 

I model what I do to the standards I do because that's what gives me maximum potential enjoyment in balance to the time I have available and the skills that I have at present.

 

Would I like to model to higher standards?  Eventually, yes - but there are many different answers to this.  More research into accurate train formations rather than memory/photos?  Better/more consistent weathering?  Handbuilding track?  More kits/unusual items running?  There is no one right answer as it all depends on what we want.

 

As I've mentioned in other threads, there are simple things we can all do that can improve our standards, such as not running a class 66 diesel pulling five plank private owner wagons and a GWR brake van on the back of it, that are much easier to achieve than learning to scratchbuild things from brass sheet.

 

To me, it's all about balancing everything - and that's one thing I think a lot of modellers fall down on.

 

After all, why spend hundreds of pounds and hours scratchbuilding a loco only to end up with a rubbish paint job, or for it to run sounding like a spanner in a cement mixer and derailing at every opportunity?

[Waverley West]

Simples. As a solo modeller, it's taking me long enough to build some sort of representation of Edinburgh Waverley, Princes St. and Haymarket using readily available materials as it is. Given the time I have available, I doubt I will live long enough to do it in finescale and then enjoy it. As I'd have to convert or build all my stock as well, the idea just becomes a non-starter. I'd like the layout to be "finished" soon enough to be able to enjoy operating it too. I enjoy a bit of everything in the field of railway modelling - planning, building and operating. If I did it in finescale, I think I'd just spend the rest of my life building the layout I want and never having the time to enjoy it. With the plans I have in mind, Waverley West has the potential to be the only layout I ever build (as an adult) anyway.

 

As other posters above have said, I don't take modelling too seriously either and the extra effort and time involved in finescale often isn't worth it in my humble opinion, for reasonably sized layouts anyway, much as I admire some finescale layouts. To me and with my layout, overall impression (i.e. everything on the layout) is far more important than a couple of millimetres in track gauge. That's just my humble personal opinion though, as I say.

 

Cheers,
Dave
 

[HillsideDepot]

Cromptonnut, I think we are on very similar wavelentgths! It is all about balance for me too, yes, improve in all areas, but no one huge leap. The 66 with 5 planks is a good example, but less obvious is another which spoils the effect for me, a mutli-operator privatised TMD. OK, I know operators hire from each other, and acquire/lease locos in other company colours, but not in the variety often seen on layouts. True. "Rule 1" applies, and if the buildier is happy that's great, but "finescale", to me at least, is more than the correct distance between the rails.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are some amzing finescale layouts out there, but there are some mighty fine less-than-fine scale ones too.

 

Me? I enjoy building things (when it goes well), but I know my abilties are limited. For me its better to have slightly wonky kit wagons mixed with not-quite-right RTR ones running to and from carefully planned (but off scene) yards and sidings, travelling on the "correct" Trip working rather than each vehicle being 100% correct, but out of context or randomly running. But that's just me!

[justin1985]

I am to young ( I'm 30 when I go to show people see me and ignore me so I can't find how to do things)

 

 

I'm not trying to say that you haven't experienced this attitude, but I'm 28 and I've found the 2mm Scale Association to be supremely welcoming and supportive, and their "senior" members have been without fail generous with their time, experience, and support! Perhaps the atmosphere is different in other gauges, but it doesn't have to be so!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Please, let's not get into the "what is finescale?" and "you don't have to model in finescale to make a good model!" debates.

 

In the OP Mark used the word "adventurous" and I would also say "challenging" areas of modelling. Not as in too difficult, but as something that you haven't done before or which stretches your capabilities a bit. There will always be reasons why not, but the results are usually very rewarding. Even if you don't create the model/layout you want or are totally satisfied with, at least you'll have learned something.

 

Pat B said (post#12) "Finescale evangelists have put me off. I prefer not to take myself or my modelling as seriously as some seem to."

 

Why should someone not take their modelling seriously if they choose? Can you imagine an enthusiastic football supporter saying "Oh well, we lost/got relegated, but it's just a game"? What's wrong in wanting to create a model that (hopefully) is reasonably accurate and looks right? Many of the modellers that I know are EM or P4 modellers. With very few exceptions they aren't "evangelists" but are willing to share their experiences with others to help them learn how to make their own individual models.

 

Kenton said (post#5) "But to go that extra step to something finer scale in terms of a layout. I just cannot think of anything really stopping me other than the thought why do I really want to? What will I get out of it? Can I be bothered?" 

 

I think that sums it up. But if you haven't tried, then you won't know if you might have found it worthwhile and enjoyable.

 

Jol

[James Makin]

In terms of converting to the broader gauges think it's a question of 'scale' in some ways - in my mind I have a grand plan of the layout I'd one day like to achieve, and that includes a huge amount of stock and probably an indecent amount of points that need building! It would take a while.

 

I've always fancied having a go at P4 but you sometimes hear stories from other modellers about how such-and-such loco is a pig to re--wheel, or the costs of re-wheeling long rakes of coal trains for example. And they do say start small, but I want to go big!! I guess it is just a case of finding the time, there are some stunning P4 layouts out there.

 

I don't do 'finescale' yet but what I have found in modelling is that it's easy to be put off doing a task because a lot of things are perceived as difficult, but are really a lot easier if you approach slowly, logically and without fear. I bet that's the same here!

[MPR]

Time, definitely time is my main impediment to achieving my goals in fine scale.

But, turning this on its head, the barrier to adopting fine scale is being too ambitious in the short term  - & the solution to this "problem" is to limit the overall size of the first project.

I believe the main pre-condition for starting in fine scale is learning how to see, & once you do this, there is no turning back. Even a small layout, if well-observed can be operationally complex and visually rich when it is completed.

 

Now I have been working for many years on a model of Torre on the Kingswear branch (two boards, 8 feet by 20 inches total visible plus compact fiddle yards) and to be honest even that it is too much for the time I can devote to the project - I am carrying on with researching and building it out of sheer obstinacy!

 

If I was starting over, I'd go for something even smaller and simpler - probably along the lines of the S4 society standard gauge challenge (but not necessarily in P4 or EM, just look at the OO gauge Engine Wood in last month's BRM).

So:

one piece ply main board (<5 feet long for the S4 Society challenge - this will fit in most hatchbacks with one rear seat folded)

integrated control panel to minimise connections in wiring

No more than three turnouts in initial form.

Simplest possible cassette fiddle yard with jack plugs for the electrics.

 

The project doesn't have to be a branch line or industrial site - there are plenty of bounded areas on mainlines such as station throats where a slice of reality can be carved out and modelled.The compromise will then be the size of trains you can run - but who is to say that you need to run any more than the daily pick up goods or suburban auto train. Even express locomotives were often run in out of Swindon on a B set local!

 

Best of all, layouts of this size can take no space at all, mounted high above a chest of drawers or on a bookshelf, they can be permanently accessible in a spare room with other uses. 

 

This scale of layout gives the would-be finescale builder more options that aren't financially viable at a larger size for most of us.

i.e Can't build a wood baseboard - buy a conti-board shelf OR make it out of foam board OR foam OR buy it in as a pre-cut kit.

Can't build track - use C and L plain track,  buy in the points, modify Peco points.

...and so on.

 

With this size of layout, all you need is one locomotive and a few wagons - so skills can be built slowly, one small project at a time. Parts that don't come up to standard as you progress can be replaced without huge expense or disrupting the whole project. The cost isn't too high and if you really can't gain the skills you need in one area, you can buy them in.

Finally, once you've made the leap, the cost of Bach-by's latest wonder locomotive won't be a worry any more. A £5 wagon kit and a few bits of brass shim and wire will keep you occupied for hours!

 

Martin

[PatB]

Pat B said (post#12) "Finescale evangelists have put me off. I prefer not to take myself or my modelling as seriously as some seem to."

 

Why should someone not take their modelling seriously if they choose? Can you imagine an enthusiastic football supporter saying "Oh well, we lost/got relegated, but it's just a game"? What's wrong in wanting to create a model that (hopefully) is reasonably accurate and looks right? Many of the modellers that I know are EM or P4 modellers. With very few exceptions they aren't "evangelists" but are willing to share their experiences with others to help them learn how to make their own individual models.

 

Jol

 

People are, of course, perfectly at liberty to take their modelling exactly as seriously as they might wish. However, when feelings run as high as, for instance, they did in the 1970s between devotees of P4 and S4 (I've read the Letters pages of the magazines of the time and have found the levels of enmity expressed quite staggering), it all seems to get a bit silly.

 

Whilst I have met many modellers working to far finer standards in all areas than I can ever hope to achieve and I too have found them to be as you describe. On the other hand, and I would emphasise that this is only a personal, subjective impression, when I've heard a modeller declaring that their way is the only correct way they've not generally been the guy running clockwork tinplate on Bassett-Lowke track.

[Jol Wilkinson]

People are, of course, perfectly at liberty to take their modelling exactly as seriously as they might wish. However, when feelings run as high as, for instance, they did in the 1970s between devotees of P4 and S4 (I've read the Letters pages of the magazines of the time and have found the levels of enmity expressed quite staggering), it all seems to get a bit silly.

 

Whilst I have met many modellers working to far finer standards in all areas than I can ever hope to achieve and I too have found them to be as you describe. On the other hand, and I would emphasise that this is only a personal, subjective impression, when I've heard a modeller declaring that their way is the only correct way they've not generally been the guy running clockwork tinplate on Bassett-Lowke track.

Pat,

 

it isn't just in the 1970's S4/P4 situation where people's attitudes become entrenched and unpleasant exchanges occur. I know of model railway clubs where it has happened and of one other Society where it is happening at present.

 

I regret that I get depressed by/irate with those that tend to put others that extend their modelling boundaries beyond the "mainstream" (mainly a 4mm modellers attitude as far as I can see) into a "lunatic fringe" category.

 

I too have experienced modellers that think and  say that theirs is the only way, but it hasn't been restricted to those who work outside of using RTR products by any means.

 

I don't really care if you model in N, 2mmFS,OO, EM, P4, etc. but I will applaud your efforts to create something of your own that has a bit of your blood, sweat and tears in its DNA.

 

Jol

 

p.s. Perhaps that the B-L or Hornby Dublo layout is run by a person that see themselves as a collector of vintage models rather than a modeller?

[garethashenden]

Compatibility. It's not a problem with my EM models as I've never bought an OO model without planning on EMing it. I'd really like to use the 2mmFS standards regauged to 9mm for my American N models but I'm hesitant about the need to modify everything. I am planning on building a point soon and seeing how things go...

[Axlebox]

 

 

With this size of layout, all you need is one locomotive and a few wagons - so skills can be built slowly, one small project at a time. Parts that don't come up to standard as you progress can be replaced without huge expense or disrupting the whole project. The cost isn't too high and if you really can't gain the skills you need in one area, you can buy them in.

Finally, once you've made the leap, the cost of Bach-by's latest wonder locomotive won't be a worry any more. A £5 wagon kit and a few bits of brass shim and wire will keep you occupied for hours!

 

 

 

Martin

Couldn't agree more...

http://www.scalefour.org/shows/S4um2011/croft.html

...right back to me brass shim and wires then.

Duncan

[garethashenden]

I think it depends on the modeller. The question is about making models "more finescale", not making them "finescale".

[nick_bastable]

I'm working in N,

 

2mm finescale is tempting, however in my mind it prevents selling on / changing stock if my interests change. It also would prevent me running stock on the club's N gauge layout.

 

I have tried building track and have a 2mm track jig with a length of track stuck in it

have you seen the prices 2mm loco sell  for

 

track gets easier especially with easitrac  well worth the effort of 2mm for the better running although fine n works very well

 

Nick