GCR - George Dow

[Andy Hayter]

Having recently purchased the Bachmann 9J, I am now looking for stock for it to haul. 

I have found several drawings for GCR wagons but only one drawing of a brake van - a 3 axle 20 version, which seems a bit OTT for the sort of train I intend to model.

George Dow's trilogy on the Great Central railway is frequently cited as a significant source of data.  If anyone has, or has had, access to these books, could they please tell me if they contain drawing which can be used as a basis for modelling - and in particular if there are any suitable drawings of brake vans.

 

Alternatively can anyone point to another source?

 

Many thanks in advance

[jwealleans]

What sort of train are you looking to model?  There's nothing RTR, so you're looking at kits.  There are two extremes - Bill Bedford's etched wagons here, or the Falcon Brass range here. David Geen also does a couple of GC vans and the GCRS offer some of the kits formerly sold by D & S on an occasional basis to both members and non-members.

 

I've recently built the Falcon Brass 6 wheel brake van, which is not really OTT for a regular goods train.

 

 

Not for the beginner, but then neither are Bill B's kits as most don't come with instructions. Then again if you get stuck you can post on here and you'll get more advice than you can shake a stick at. Some of it will even be worth reading.

 

Of course, goods trains would be a mixture of wagons and there are a number of people doing pregrouping kits.

 

For scratchbuilding, Dow has only outline or weight diagrams and you'd be much better served by Peter Tatlow's book covering the GC wagons inherited by the LNER. I can't think of a better source off the top of my head unless you can get to the NRM and look at originals.

[Andy Hayter]

I was actually thinking of scratch building - hence the question about drawings. 

I had found the 2 available brake vans you link to and considered them a bit bigger than I was thinking about.  The Bill Bedford 15t van (in preparation) was more the size I was thinking about.

 

Thanks anyway for the heads up on G Dow.

[t-b-g]

I can only echo what has been said. The Dow drawings are just weight diagrams, many of which are printed right size for H0!

 

Peter Denny used some of them for his models way back when but they really don't have the sort of detail on them to allow decent models to be made from them and the Denny models have very "generic" details,

 

The Tatlow book, on the other hand, has good illustrations and enough decent drawings to allow a goods train to be built and would be much the better bet.

 

The former D & S kit, available from time to time via the GCRS, would be just right as a smaller and very typical GCR brake van.

 

Good luck with your project and I hope to see some photos of what you are doing. Anything GCR is OK with me!

 

Tony

[Andy Hayter]

I actually have the Tatlow book, and the only drawing is again a 3 axle van rather than a smaller one. 

Maybe I will just have to build the bigger one for now.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Andy,

Vol.3 of Dow's book does contain side and end elevations of both the 4-wheel and 6-wheel 15t brake vans.

 

If this is for your personal use/research only, PM me with your email address.

 

Regards,

Peter

[hmrspaul]

I actually have the Tatlow book, and the only drawing is again a 3 axle van rather than a smaller one. 

Maybe I will just have to build the bigger one for now.

Tatlow also has a 4 wheel 15tonner on page 178-9

 

Paul

[Andy Hayter]

Many thanks to Peter for scanning the drawings - a good start for a scratchbuild.

Paul, yes, but again it is the 3 axle version in Taplow

 

Thanks to all for taking time to respond

[hmrspaul]

Many thanks to Peter for scanning the drawings - a good start for a scratchbuild.

Paul, yes, but again it is the 3 axle version in Taplow

 

Thanks to all for taking time to respond

I think you are mis-understanding, there are two drawings in the newer Tatlow.

 

Paul

[hayfield]

I have lost the link but someone has listed all the plans from the UK modelling press in regions. Think its been taken over by an American group. Will have plenty of GCR plans in its index telling you which mag and month and year you need

[James Harrison]

I have lost the link but someone has listed all the plans from the UK modelling press in regions. Think its been taken over by an American group. Will have plenty of GCR plans in its index telling you which mag and month and year you need

 

That's my first port of call when looking for drawings: 

 

http://www.brmna.org/xrefs.shtml

[hayfield]

Thanks

 

Had it in my favourites in Windows XP but lost it when I moved to Windows 7

[Andy Hayter]

Thanks also from me although the only GCR brake van is once again a 3 axle version - which I had already located through my own database.  This is however a very good piece of work by the Guys across the big sea.

[Pyewipe Jct]

Thanks also from me although the only GCR brake van is once again a 3 axle version - which I had already located through my own database.  This is however a very good piece of work by the Guys across the big sea.

The book you need, and the one Paul's been referring you to, is Volume One - 'LNER Southern Area' of the latest multi-volume edition of LNER Wagons from Wild Swan, not the original single volume (although both are by Tatlow). The more recent work, as he's already stated, has drawings for both the 6-wheeled AND 4-wheeled GC brake vans...

[corneliuslundie]

This list may be of use to you. It was produced by Colin Wilson (of EMGS fame) some time ago and is extracted from a set of files I have.

 

GREAT CENTRAL

LDEC   -1920    10 ton end door coal wagon                                           7          MRC NOV 75 436

MSLR   -1917    10 ton medium goods wagon                                         7          MRC APR 72 149

WMCQ -  -        Grain wagon                                                                 4          RM  FEB 61 45

WMCQ -  -        12 ton railway grain wagon                                            7          MRC AUG 61

GCR     -  -        Single bolster wagon                                                     c3        RM NOV 01 54

GCR     1903     30 ton bogie steel carrier                                               7          MR  FEB 72 324-5

GCR     1903     15 ton 6 wheel goods brake                                           7          MRC JUL 76 263

GCR     1912     10 ton 3 plank dropside wagon                                      7          MRC OCT 74 315

GCR     -1917    10 ton wagon                                                                7432     RM  NOV 74 332

GER     1917     ROD goods brake van                                                   7          MR  JUN 89 231

GCR     -1918    10 ton goods wagon                                                      4;3;2     RM  AUG 73 246

GCR     -1918    10 ton goods wagon                                                      7432     RM  MAR 80 98

GCR     1918     10'6" w/b brake van                                                       7          MR  JUN 89 286-7

GCR     -  -        Double bolster wagon                                                    -           RM  MAR 99 138

GCR     -  -        Double bolster wagon                                                    -           RM  MAY 99 239

GCR     -  -        Double bolster wagon                                                    c3        RM  MANOV 01 544

GCR     -1919    10 ton double bolster rail & timber wagon                       7;4       RM  MAR 77 85

GCR     -1919    10 ton loco coal wagon (end door)                                 7432     RM  FEB 80 67

GCR     -  -        Implement wagon                                                          4          RM  FEB 61 45

GCR     -  -        10 ton open wagon                                                        4          RM  FEB 61 45

GCR     -  -        12 ton dropside wagon                                                  4          RM  FEB 61 45

GCR     -  -        12 ton coal wagon                                                         4          RM  FEB 61 45

GCR     -  -        10 ton goods van (2 types)                                            7          MRN NOV 65 394-5

GCR     -  -        Armour plate & boiler wagon                                          4          RM  FEB 61 45

GCR     -1920    10 ton sleeper wagon                                                    7432     RM  JAN 77 19

GCR     -1921    9 ton sleeper wagon                                                      7432     RM  APR 73 115

 

And the HMRS has the following drawings:

 

Goods Brake Van With Single Veranda - Body Only - 10ft w/b - 16ft 6ins o/b;  Diagram (Outline)   17762    

Goods Brake, 15 Ton, 6 Wheel, 13ft w/b;  General Arrangement   3169    

Signal Fitters Van of 1894; Accident Brake of 1878; Accident Brake of 1881/2/3;   402

[Andy Hayter]

The confusion is now clear.  I had the original OPC single volume version.  The Wild Swan books are out of print and command a substantial premium.

[jwealleans]

Corneliuslundie's post puts me in mind of the Smallbrook Studios resin kit for the LSWR brake van which was adopted as standard by the ROD and then sold off after the war.  The GC bought a number of those.  That's a small 10T brake van with a lot of character and a fairly straightforward kit to assemble.

 

 

Mine (on the right) is one of the batch sold to the GE and still in use in the early 1950s.

[Pyewipe Jct]

The confusion is now clear.  I had the original OPC single volume version.  The Wild Swan books are out of print and command a substantial premium.

No guarantee that they're still in stock, but there seems to be a copy here (towards the bottom of the page) selling for the cover price:

 

http://www.railwaybooks.org/page33.htm

 

Also here:

 

http://titfield.co.uk/WildSwan/WSP_RLST.htm

 

And here:

 

http://pufferwillies.co.uk/uk2ecommerce/product/lner_wagons_volume_1_-_southern_area/

 

And a copy on AbeBooks:

 

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=12881767364&searchurl=kn%3Dlner%2Bwagons%2Bwild%2Bswan%26amp%3Bsts%3Dt

 

 

Definitely worth seeking out (the whole series, in fact) IMHO

[Poggy1165]

If you are looking for variety the GC also had some ex-LDEC brake vans of essentially GE design, in both 4 and 6 wheeled versions. But I have never, ever seen any photo of one in GC condition.

 

The best bet in 4mm is definitely the ex-D&S 4 wheel brake mentioned by Tony, which is sometimes to be had through the GCRS. As etched kits go, it's an easy build. Indeed, it's an easier build than some plastic brake van kits of my acquaintance. They show up on Ebay sometimes as well, but tend to go for large sums - by 4mm standards, anyway!

[Andy Hayter]

Well 18 months on.

 

I must give my thanks to everyone who helped, both here and elsewhere where i was asking about GC transfers.

 

Thanks to peter for his scan but in the end I invested in the Taplow book. 

 

I cannot claim this as a true representation but I hope it will pass as a train in motion.  this is the first 00 scratch building in 25 years and certain parts of the body are not quite as adept as they seemed to be all those years ago.

 

There are things I am pleased with.  There are things I would do differently - where was my brain, when I fixed the roof on before putting in the glazing.  Doh!!!  Now that was a challenge to put right.

 

Attached  a view of the van on a nascent Haltemprice Quay layout.

 

Once again thanks to all.  I hope you enjoy.

 

And the good news for other GC modellers - Bill Bedford's model of the same diagram should be out any day now, knowing my luck. 

[James Harrison]

Looks very good.  A few years ago I built one of the 6-wheeled brakevans on a Hornby milk tanker chassis, using the LMS brakevan from the same stable as a base model to hack around.  Then last Christmas I received Tatlows' LNER wagons volume 1 and spotted all the places where it wasn't quite right... I'm planning to have another crack at it this year. 

[Poggy1165]

Looks really good. For me this is the 'classic' GC brake van, though of course they did have others, notably the 6 wheel jobs. All you need now are 40 Manvers Main wagons to go between the two.

[Andy Hayter]

40 wagons might be a bit OTT for a layout 17ft long including the fiddle yard.

 

Will a small rake of Dinnington do instead?

[Sasquatch]

Late to the party as always.

This is the van you were looking for Andy.

 

Also used by the Cheshire Lines Committee. I scratch built my (not so very accurate) model by scaling up this picture of the kit which I tried to obtain from eBay about ten years ago.

 

 

Incidentally I purchased a Jidenco kit of the 20T 6 wheeled van yesterday at a show in Eugene Oregon for the tidy sum of $15. The most unusual thing to find there but I came away grinning like a Cheshire cat. This will be my first step into brass construction. 

 

 

Regards Shaun.

[Edwardian]

Well 18 months on.

 

I must give my thanks to everyone who helped, both here and elsewhere where i was asking about GC transfers.

 

Thanks to peter for his scan but in the end I invested in the Taplow book. 

 

I cannot claim this as a true representation but I hope it will pass as a train in motion.  this is the first 00 scratch building in 25 years and certain parts of the body are not quite as adept as they seemed to be all those years ago.

 

There are things I am pleased with.  There are things I would do differently - where was my brain, when I fixed the roof on before putting in the glazing.  Doh!!!  Now that was a challenge to put right.

 

Attached  a view of the van on a nascent Haltemprice Quay layout.

 

Once again thanks to all.  I hope you enjoy.

 

And the good news for other GC modellers - Bill Bedford's model of the same diagram should be out any day now, knowing my luck. 

 

Late to the party as always.

This is the van you were looking for Andy.

6d69_1clc breakvan.jpg

 

Also used by the Cheshire Lines Committee. I scratch built my (not so very accurate) model by scaling up this picture of the kit which I tried to obtain from eBay about ten years ago.

044.JPG

 

 

Incidentally I purchased a Jidenco kit of the 20T 6 wheeled van yesterday at a show in Eugene Oregon for the tidy sum of $15. The most unusual thing to find there but I came away grinning like a Cheshire cat. This will be my first step into brass construction. 

 

 

Regards Shaun.

 

Lovely jobs, both.