Kenton Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) The most important part of that proposal by Andy that I keep reading above all else is which encourages participation with simple but immensely useful boardseverything else is just open discussion. Edited July 30, 2014 by Kenton 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Since this was written by Andy a minimum radius of 36 inches has been added. Has anything else been achieved in the nearly 20 pages more of post? Possibly, - the thought that we could do with a 'standard' (not recommendation) for the bus wiring, one thing I hadn't thought about, until Suzies post, was the fact that everyone else further along the line is relying on the single strand ex GPO bell wire I might have used as a bus? 10a rated wire maybe as a standard, no need to specify anything further regarding type.....just a suggestion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 10a rated wire maybe as a standard, no need to specify anything further regarding type.....just a suggestion. Wire cross section? There's lots of wire out there... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Wire cross section? There's lots of wire out there... ..........and lots of them will do, it shouldn't need to be specified, its the current rating it will carry that determines if it's adequate or not, not whether it's multi strand, single core or lengths of rail glued under the boards. - I'm just guessing 10 Amps is suitable, I leave it to others to specify, just think it should be specced to prevent poor running that's difficult to trace. Ratings are usually given in amps not mm2., given the large variety of types. Just been to Maplins for something else, 10A red and black off the reel is only £1.79/m so it's not going to break the budget, just help with reliability issues IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderHead Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 My local ironmongers has twin mains flex for about 30p/m … Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 My local ironmongers has twin mains flex for about 30p/m …Ah, but it will not be red + black Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) As long as the banana plugs & sockets are red & black, the actual cable can be any colour, can't it ? P.S. - I like 'Dave' as the standards name too... Edited July 30, 2014 by Stubby47 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 As long as the banana plugs & sockets are red & black, the actual cable can be any colour, can't it ? P.S. - I like 'Dave' as the standards name too... It doesn't matter what colour they are as they are connected left to left and right to right. Colour coding red and black will likely lead to trouble down the road if a module is reversed. In normal conditions if someone builds red = outside rail and black = inside rail, when that module is turned 180 degrees the black becomes outside rail. You really don't want to limit things so that you have an A and B end to each module and have to set up at meets A-B all the time. Each end should be agnostic. That is also the main reason for having the track at the centre of the module so it doesn't matter which way round it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) It doesn't matter what colour they are as they are connected left to left and right to right. Colour coding red and black will likely lead to trouble down the road if a module is reversed. In normal conditions if someone builds red = outside rail and black = inside rail, when that module is turned 180 degrees the black becomes outside rail. You really don't want to limit things so that you have an A and B end to each module and have to set up at meets A-B all the time. Each end should be agnostic. That is also the main reason for having the track at the centre of the module so it doesn't matter which way round it is.  But hang on a minute - on a module that can be used either way round which is left and which is right or front and back for that matter? Is it that complicated that the Grand Meet-up DCC Trackmeister cannot use a meter to test rail to lead connectivity and stamp his rubber boot seal of connection on the join? Edited July 30, 2014 by Kenton Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderHead Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Ah, but it will not be red + black … which is correct as it will be carrying an AC signal, not DC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 2.5mm2 bus wire is a good specification. This size of wire is readily available and cheap, you can buy it as single conductor from electrical distributors or strip it from some old 25A twin and earth (colour is not important when used within your module, but probably best to avoid green/yellow striped), you can buy 2.5mm2 flexible wire as speaker wire from places like Maplin or Rapid which are handy for module interconnection jumpers. Jumpers must be flexible stranded wire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harald Brosch Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Dutch_Master, I don't think you can judge about FREMO practices. For transport reasons wooden clothes pegs are glued under the modules. They hold the cables when not in use. Furthermore fixed sockets are complicated to fix if they are accidently riped off on a meeting. A loose wire is much easier to solder than something on the underside of a module. Moin Felix I used this kind of fixing many years ago - what a total s..t for me. The wooden pegs? are not made for rough transport in a trailer over long distances. They opened and the wires hang loose and there was danger to tear them from the modules during unloading. And it happened. Often :-( At each setup I had to solder some (or more) wires to the modules again. (On tour with up to 40 or more modules - 36 of them in a little trailer) I only use sockets on the modules anymore and connect the modules with short wires with a plug on each end. Has proven to be the best thing for me - and for my special kind of rough handling of my modules :-) Tschuess / bye Harald Sorry again for misspellings Edited July 30, 2014 by Harald Brosch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 But hang on a minute - on a module that can be used either way round which is left and which is right or front and back for that matter? Is it that complicated that the Grand Meet-up DCC Trackmeister cannot use a meter to test rail to lead connectivity and stamp his rubber boot seal of connection on the join? LoL. Normal practice in other modular groups is to just look up at the connection block. left goes to left, etc. No magic. However, where people have gone and put red and black, or any other colour identified plugs and sockets, human nature takes over and people tend to just plug colour to colour. Trust me its a bit more than just walking around with a meter to check. Quite often you'll get a dozen or more modules setup before power is applied. Having to go over and double check each connection to find which one was reversed can be a pain in the nether regions. Much easier to get into the mindset of jumpering modules by pin location than colour. Oh and any module should be reversible. Technically there is no such thing as front or back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Mains cable good 4mm banana plugs good 9mm end plates adequate and can be strengthened if they warp. My 16x3 Swiss layout with plates 3x2 ft haven't warped in 14 years in a damp uninsulated shed! Name . . . Dave is a bit simple and I prefer thrust!!!! Bananas also good Edited July 30, 2014 by PaulRhB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 There is a need for quality in the connections because there are going to be a lot of them and they need to take the full booster output current (and a bit during overload conditions which for practical purposes should be taken as 10A, not 5A) while not introducing significant voltage drop. Bear in mind that you have a connector for approximately every track foot (assuming average module length of 4') so by the time your train has run 100' the bus feed has gone through 100 connectors, fifty jumper cables and fifty sets of module bus wiring. Just as an aside - we'd not be trying to feed any modules with 10A, that's overkill for HO scale even with multiple sound loco's (so I'd presume OO too) - and I suspect we also wouldn't be trying to power a 100' run of modules from one booster located at one extreme end of the run... Whilst those things are possible, i'd have thought them unlikely, and/or unwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 best to avoid green/yellow stripedI am looking for a reason why I have no intention of throwing out a perfectly useful wire just to comply with some nonsense of a standard. … which is correct as it will be carrying an AC signal, not DC Yeh I think you missed the comment - twin cable in the UK now conforms to brown + blue - it was a comment on colour again not on the DCC signal or current capacity. So for red and black you have to find a single wire supplier. Again the colour is totally irrelevant what happens on the module is of no concern to others other than: It must be DCC and the bus of 10A capacity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Bananas also good Counts as one of my 5 a day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Just as an aside - we'd not be trying to feed any modules with 10A, that's overkill for HO scale even with multiple sound loco's (so I'd presume OO too) - and I suspect we also wouldn't be trying to power a 100' run of modules from one booster located at one extreme end of the run... Whilst those things are possible, i'd have thought them unlikely, and/or unwise. Gaugemaster boosters are 8A so limiting to 5A eliminates using a MRC/Gaugemaster control system for a start. It is reasonable to say that 10A will be the max in order to be inclusive. The precise current figure that will be used is not important, what is important is minimising voltage drop because of the large number if interconnections that are likely to be used. You do not want to be in a situation where trains start to slow or stall because of voltage drop in some of the modules. I suspect that boosters will not be particularly easy to obtain in large quantities for meets with most DCC operators not using separate boosters on their home systems so employing good DCC practice when wiring modules is going to be imperative in practice. Having to fit extra boosters to ostensibly plain track sections will be a chore - you want to feed where the concentrations of locos are likely to be We probably need to draw on the experience of European meets - how many metres between booster feeds on European setups? With fifteen people coming together for a UK meet each with an activity module and a straight module you are going to be hard pressed to find more than one booster between them for about 120' of run - they are very rarely needed for home layouts nowadays. Setting good wiring standards will minimise any need for boosters. I suspect that you will need to allow 250mA per running non sound loco, but how much for each sound loco running or not? average current consumption is likely to rise in time with increased use of sound and lighting - this is a new specification and it can be future proofed now with good practice that does not really cost anything. Plan for the extremes and everything else will just work. A couple of lit and sound fitted 14-car MLV/GUV/CEP/BEP/CEP boat trains passing on a SouthEastern setup would probably draw a fair bit of current alone with eight motors between them as an example of things likely being a bit different in UK modular world from other areas. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I've looked at "booster units" - although I have no need for one myself for any of my DCC layouts I did consider buying one simply for "modular setup usage" but they all appear to be over £100 which is money I suspect many of us could easily spend elsewhere. I have a Lenz setup at home but assume that any booster could be used with any system as it's two wires in, two wires out? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FelixM Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I used this kind of fixing many years ago - what a total s..t for me. The wooden pegs? are not made for rough transport in a trailer over long distances. They opened and the wires hang loose and there was danger to tear them from the modules during unloading. And it happened. Often :-( At each setup I had to solder some (or more) wires to the modules again. (On tour with up to 40 or more modules - 36 of them in a little trailer) I only use sockets on the modules anymore and connect the modules with short wires with a plug on each end. Has proven to be the best thing for me - and for my special kind of rough handling of my modules :-) This is an aspect of FREMO I like very much. People deviate from the standards to achieve the same, but in a different way. Cheers Harald! Kind regards Felix Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 If you are worried about small bits of wire falling to the floor then tin the exposed ends of the wire (good practice anyway) before clamping it into the chocblock connectors None of this is exactly rocket science. If it was, one thing Nasa would not allow is the soldering of stranded wires used in screw terminals, very much a bad practice. Best wishes, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FelixM Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Reversible modules may seem a nice concept, but in practice very few will be truly build that way. Most will have either a preference side or a clear/obvious front side. I've outlined some proposals in this respect, back on page 25, message 611, directly below Andy's proposals Very few participants have commented on these back then, but the matter continues to be discussed debated argued over. I predict the opposite. Home layouts made compatible with the modular standards we are talking about will be in the minority. There are lots of possibilities to recreate scale (or near to scale) prototype situations that you can only model on modules that are greater than useful for home usage, so this will attract the majority of fellowers. Kind regards Felix Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Reversible modules may seem a nice concept, but in practice very few will be truly build that way. Most will have either a preference side or a clear/obvious front side. I've outlined some proposals in this respect, back on page 25, message 611, directly below Andy's proposals Very few participants have commented on these back then, but the matter continues to be discussed debated argued over. IMHO reversible modules are fantastic, and to be honest unless you think you *need* to have a backscene in your spec I wouldn't go any other way after trying this. In practice, virtually everyone who has built one for our spec so far has regarded them as double sided. I think there's only one I can think of that can't be run from either side, and as the ends of that are a mirror image it doesn't matter operationally which way round it goes anyhow. Sure, many modules will look better from one side versus the other, and when i'm designing something for public viewing i'll take that into account - but the primary point of the standard, and for most meets, isn't to build something for folk to stand and gawp at, it's to build something for the participants to operate - and from that viewpoint defining that this side MUST be the front and that MUST be the back is very counter productive... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harald Brosch Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) This is an aspect of FREMO I like very much. People deviate from the standards to achieve the same, but in a different way. Has nothing to do with FREMO in special - I also did it with Nordmodul - and with Lasergang-modules in 1:22,5( using peco 32mm narrow track) Just drawing lasercutting-files for new types of modules-kits for exhibitions - 00 scale - but not FREMO or any other existing kind of modules. But can be attached via a special modul to it. Will have the same type of connections. More than 650 different kind of endplates are not enough I suppose. Harald Edited July 30, 2014 by Harald Brosch 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Right; I've created a sub-forum for modular stuff and moved this topic into it. I've created and locked a standards topic. If anyone wants anything moving into the area just report your topic if you've got cracking on anything and I'll sort it. I'll create a further sub-forum for WIP and Completed (functioning) modules as we move forward. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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