Pete 75C Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 1940's weekends recreated using mk1 coaches and post nationalised liveries/locos stick out far more for me than a hi viz vest. Do any railways do 50's weekends? I'm sure they would be very popular! There was a Black 5 (I think) sporting BR double arrows on the tender a few years ago at the North Norfolk Railway. What was that all about??? Bizarre. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2014 There was a Black 5 (I think) sporting BR double arrows on the tender a few years ago at the North Norfolk Railway. What was that all about??? Bizarre. It wasn't chalked on was it? There were a number of instances of double arrows chalked on tenders c1967/68. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 It wasn't chalked on was it? There were a number of instances of double arrows chalked on tenders c1967/68. No it was either painted on or it was a removable vinyl graphic. Perhaps it was substituting for a failure at a diesel gala and they hoped no-one would notice... I'm sure there must be a picture out there somewhere, I just remember it looked ridiculous at the time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted July 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2014 Sheesh. Bump caps, hard hats.... Could do with a bump cap for modelling after the time I was poking around under the baseboard and tried to brain myself on the corner of the Tortoise. Never been even bruised on the real railway though, so it looks like it's safer than my model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Hi-vis clothing is trivial to remove in photoshop, if photography is your thing. Wrt fencing and public access - how about trams or street running, docks and such places where the public could be squashed? Best wishes, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 A lot of things to comment on. City of Truro running on Colonel Stevens light railway? Shunting without hivis, yes, it's done on film sets as was the special smoke effects man at Tenterden the other day, wandering in front of the BR black Terrier hauling 2 Maunsell Southern-liveried coaches for a 1938 drama at Tilling Town...the vintage cars were nice too. The general rule abroad is that YOU are responsible for YOUR safety, not the railway, the state, or anyone else. YOU. Pity we don't have that law here. If you wander on the railway and get splatted by a train, it's your fault, no-one else's. On the TTA there is a practice amongst drivers when changing ends to release the brake, walk through the motor coach while it rolls back towards the platform (which has people milling around everywhere), and hope they don't trip over clutter in the coach before it reaches the platform so they can get to the brake in the other end!! No signs of H&S over there, but some of the drivers also drive trams and trains for a living and are showing concerns over the lax safety standards there, But a hivis-free railway, yippee! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2014 The general rule abroad is that YOU are responsible for YOUR safety, not the railway, the state, or anyone else. YOU. Pity we don't have that law here. If you wander on the railway and get splatted by a train, it's your fault, no-one else's. Actually we do Roy, and have done for the past 40 years - Health & Safety At Work Act, 1974, Section 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Actually we do Roy, and have done for the past 40 years - Health & Safety At Work Act, 1974, Section 7 So why this? http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/railway-firm-admits-health-safety-3357394 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted July 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2014 So why this? http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/railway-firm-admits-health-safety-3357394 Reading that, tragic though it is, to me it just highlights the farcical state of affairs in this country - no matter how stupid we are, no matter what illegal acts we may be carrying out, when the sh*t hits the fan we always blame someone else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2014 So why this? http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/railway-firm-admits-health-safety-3357394 I presume the lad was not an employee but a trespasser. Regrettably the H&S Act places no legal responsibility on trespassers and it all comes down on the site etc owner/operator. I'm afraid my own view is very straightforward - if someone trespasses and exposes themselves to risk of any sort that is down to them - there is usually a fence line of some sort even if it might be damaged or whatever it is still a fence line or boundary and folk cross it wholly at their own risk - end of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 In Germany, trespassers can be prosecuted for "endagering the safe operation of the railway". If they survive their stupidity that is. To my knowledge in Hessen alone this year there have been 10 such cases. All costs invoved (including delay charges!) are heaped upon the guilty party. They ay not be able to pay of course, but the debt sits with them - causes no end of problems with getting credit etc. - and the higher the damages, the bigger the sentence. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted July 18, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 18, 2014 The general rule abroad is that YOU are responsible for YOUR safety, not the railway, the state, or anyone else. YOU. Pity we don't have that law here. If you wander on the railway and get splatted by a train, it's your fault, no-one else's. That's plain common sense of course - the best thing is tfor high vis to be irrelevent because you'll never put yourself in a position where anyone would need to see you and need to do something about it, but with the best will in the world people aren't perfect so there are plenty of cases where it's a sensible additional back-up. As many places as we see it? Probably not, but there's a sensible balance somewhere. I also think that, whilst your safety is down to you is a good starting point there is obviously a balance there too. At the very least a sensible person needs to be able to recognise the dangers so he isn't unknowingly strolling out into an unmarked minefield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted July 18, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 18, 2014 In Germany, trespassers can be prosecuted for "endagering the safe operation of the railway". If they survive their stupidity that is. Wouldn't that happen here too? If you survive being hit after swerving around level crossing barriers I doubt and hope that you don't get given a pat on the back and let off scott free. I think that that's a separate issue from how far you should go to stop people doing things that a sensible person wouldn't consider doing in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_1066 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I presume the lad was not an employee but a trespasser. Regrettably the H&S Act places no legal responsibility on trespassers and it all comes down on the site etc owner/operator. I'm afraid my own view is very straightforward - if someone trespasses and exposes themselves to risk of any sort that is down to them - there is usually a fence line of some sort even if it might be damaged or whatever it is still a fence line or boundary and folk cross it wholly at their own risk - end of. That is all very well being so black and white but what then is to stop me digging a pit and filling it with crocodiles and marking my boundary with a flimsy fence? Trespass is not usually an offence punishable by death. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted July 18, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 18, 2014 That is all very well being so black and white but what then is to stop me digging a pit and filling it with crocodiles and marking my boundary with a flimsy fence? Trespass is not usually an offence punishable by death. There's a difference between punishment and consequences. As long as your crocodiles stay on your side of the fence and aren't going to attack the postman then fine IMO. edit: Might be reasonable that they're obviously visible though so the consequences of climbing over the fence are fairly clear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted July 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2014 I presume the lad was not an employee but a trespasser. Regrettably the H&S Act places no legal responsibility on trespassers and it all comes down on the site etc owner/operator. I'm afraid my own view is very straightforward - if someone trespasses and exposes themselves to risk of any sort that is down to them - there is usually a fence line of some sort even if it might be damaged or whatever it is still a fence line or boundary and folk cross it wholly at their own risk - end of. I started a thread back when that happened which ended up locked as discussion got a bit 'heated'!! Regards safety, rule 1 in the general responsibilities section of the railway rulebook (ie the first rule you read) is: Safety is your first concern, safety of yourself, your train, passengers and other people That one rule encompasses a vast spectrum and is basically written to stop you turning a blind eye to safety issues be it with railway employees or the general public if something happened to someone else as a result of you not reporting it then you may be for the high jump/rollocking, one example i can think of (which may be a railway urban legend) was a driver reported a missing speed warning board part way through the day and all other drivers who passed over the line earlier in the day got a rollocking/form 1 for not reporting it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_1066 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 There's a difference between punishment and consequences. As long as your crocodiles stay on your side of the fence and aren't going to attack the postman then fine IMO. edit: Might be reasonable that they're obviously visible though so the consequences of climbing over the fence are fairly clear. So the danger has to be visible? In the black and white world of "trespassers deserve all they get" I should be able to cover it with leaves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Exactly. Sadly, this will probably happen at some point and I dread to think of the repercussions for preservation in general. Edit: In this age of sensationalist journalism, can you imagine what the media would make of that...? At least one fatality of a volunteer worker during a shunt move has already occurred, there was an RAIB report... Odd how railways abroad don't have boundary fences and don't have the same problems we have with trespassers. Maybe Johnny Foreigner has a better respect for Things That Are Heavy And Go very Fast On Rails. The US is unfenced, and would appear to have serious, pervasive issues with trespass. Try http://oli.org/ for the official message - or i'd reccomend having a read of this blog post http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2014/06/25/we-have-new-darwin-awards-nominees.aspx for some stories from the pointy end. The evidence doesn't suggest to me they are more aware than folk over here... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I presume the lad was not an employee but a trespasser. Regrettably the H&S Act places no legal responsibility on trespassers and it all comes down on the site etc owner/operator. I'm afraid my own view is very straightforward - if someone trespasses and exposes themselves to risk of any sort that is down to them - there is usually a fence line of some sort even if it might be damaged or whatever it is still a fence line or boundary and folk cross it wholly at their own risk - end of. That is all very well being so black and white but what then is to stop me digging a pit and filling it with crocodiles and marking my boundary with a flimsy fence? Trespass is not usually an offence punishable by death. Legal, illegal. Sense, no common sense. Etc etc etc... Black and white has always worked pretty well in my book. Tragic as it is, yet again a trespasser dies on railway property and guess what? It's everybody else's fault... Rubbish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted July 18, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 18, 2014 So the danger has to be visible? In the black and white world of "trespassers deserve all they get" I should be able to cover it with leaves. That would be deliberately hiding danger (pretty much setting a trap), which is different from simply not making it obvious for the benefit of people who shouldn't be there in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 At least one fatality of a volunteer worker during a shunt move has already occurred, there was an RAIB report... The US is unfenced, and would appear to have serious, pervasive issues with trespass. Try http://oli.org/ for the official message - or i'd reccomend having a read of this blog post http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2014/06/25/we-have-new-darwin-awards-nominees.aspx for some stories from the pointy end. The evidence doesn't suggest to me they are more aware than folk over here... A look at Google News in France can be enlightening; at this time of year, there seems to be at least one 'one-under' a day on the line that goes from Marseille to Nice. Said line runs between the beaches and the areas where most hotels and 'colonnes des vacances' are located; despite the numerous footbridges and underpasses, people insist on crossing the tracks, with predictable consequences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Like the two drunken teenage girls taking a shortcut along the line near Canterbury who were electrocuted. The mother of one of them is running a campaign to abolish the third rail or have it covered over when it's not in use. Should her daughter have been there? No; should she have been wearing a hivis, yes, probably; should her daughter have been that drunk? That's her choice, but the answer is probably no. But digressing here somewhat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2014 The problem is that we increasingly live in a country where the legal trade are encouraging more & more people to sue for something or other, including tripping over their own feet, at the drop of a hat. Therefore what many of us of an age would consider downright obvious or 'common sense' has become replaced by putting warnings on everything, from hot water taps ('This water is hot') upwards in order to avoid being sued by an idiot who did something stupid. All of this really diverges quite considerably from basic safety; 'safety' is about doing things to minimise the risk of people or things being hurt, not to minimise the risk of someone being taken to court. Going back to the OP many see the point and value of hv clothing etc as reducing some of the risks associated with various sorts of railway work, some do not and it then becomes a matter of assessment and judgement as to what might be best in a particular situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 To reply to Stationmaster's post 57, I was aware of that, pity the courts and legal system aren't. Anyway, I've just attended a KESR Basic Railway Training course as I'm on the list to actually take the courses, and the paperwork there says not to wear hivis unless your duties take you on or around the line, definitely not on the platform or in other public areas. The RHDR has a similar rule. So for instance the only person at Tenterden on the platform at a Thomas weekend should be me, as the duty shunter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodmin16 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 All his talk about common sense and each individual being responsible for their own health and safety is all very well but the problem is that if somebody is hurt because they are no wearing hv, PPE etc then there is the effect (traumatic or otherwise) that thie incident would have on others involved eg train crew, other volunteers, witnesses amongst members of the public etc. it's not just the person directly involved that has to be protected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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