cromptonnut Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Apologies and a bit of a long shot but someone at work has asked if anyone could help date this image, I wondered if anyone here might be able to assist with at least a rough approximation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted July 29, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 29, 2014 The bus route numbers appear to be 19 and 69. Route 179 began in 1963 and route 69 in 1960; see this site http://www.londonbuses.co.uk/index.html The other vehicles originally suggested a '50s date until I thought of looking up the route numbers. Both routes served Chingford so that may be the location and the date probably '63 or slightly later. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted July 29, 2014 Author Share Posted July 29, 2014 Hi Pete Thanks very much for that. I had thought 50's / 60's as there are trolleybus wires (but no rails so not tram) and trolleybuses stopped in 62. 'Nut Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 It looks like it might be almost immediately post war - that type of Bus Stop sign was introduced in the thirties so no clue there. The buses look like brand new RT's, Nice and shiney and save for the one on the very left have not even had any advertising applied. Possibly replacements for a just closed trolleybus route? In fact looking it up Trolley bus routes started to be replaced by new RT's in 1959, and Routemasters were used as introduced as replacements shortly afterwards, so I think it will be 1959 or shortly after. Edit - must be a little quicker replying to original post!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium mezzoman253 Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2014 The buses look like brand new RT's, Nice and shiney and save for the one on the very left have not even had any advertising applied. Possibly replacements for a just closed trolleybus route? In fact looking it up Trolley bus routes started to be replaced by new RT's in 1959, and Routemasters were used as introduced as replacements shortly afterwards, so I think it will be 1959 or shortly after. Edit - must be a little quicker replying to original post!!! I'd agree, it looks like the man on the ladder is perhaps changing the route numbers from the 3 digits of trolleybuses routes to the "new" routes. Whether it's Chingford or not is debatable. The station had distinctive chimneys, and they don't look the same in the photo. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2014 I agree that the photo probably shows new numbers being put on the stop; I thought that was probably the case. However I possibly got confused by the website I mentioned. On revisiting I find that both route numbers had a previous existence with a common terminus at Grove Park. Route 69 ran Victoria-Grove Park from 1952 t0 1958, replacing tram route 54. Route 179 ran Farringdon Street-Grove Park from 1952 to 1961, replacing tram 74. What's more, both services began on 6th Jan 1952, which may give a very tight date. The dating sits more comfortably with my initial gut feeling from the other vehicles. The location is Grove Park and the overhead is newly redundant tram wires. The large building is The Baring Hall Hotel. Sorry for my erroneous assumption yesterday, Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 No problem, close enough - late 50's, early 60's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2014 I agree that the photo probably shows new numbers being put on the stop; I thought that was probably the case. However I possibly got confused by the website I mentioned. On revisiting I find that both route numbers had a previous existence with a common terminus at Grove Park. Route 69 ran Victoria-Grove Park from 1952 t0 1958, replacing tram route 54. Route 179 ran Farringdon Street-Grove Park from 1952 to 1961, replacing tram 74. What's more, both services began on 6th Jan 1952, which may give a very tight date. The dating sits more comfortably with my initial gut feeling from the other vehicles. The location is Grove Park and the overhead is newly redundant tram wires. The large building is The Baring Hall Hotel. Sorry for my erroneous assumption yesterday, Pete Oddly enough, I made part of the same journey of discovery yesterday - but then fell off the pavement when I realised there had never been trolleybuses anywhere near those routes. But trams, the rails in the road, the age of the van being used by the LT bloke - it all falls exactly as you say. Well done! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2014 I'd say early 50's, about 1952. The buses appear to be brand new, no adverts and polished wheel trims. The polished wheel trims had disappeared by about 1957. I am unable to read the registration of the RT but this should help to tie down the date more accurately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2014 I think that the date could be very precise. The changeover date, 06/01/1952 was a Sunday. The two chidren may be on their way to school, which would make this the Monday, but I would expect the amendments to the bus stop signs would be done on the day of change or the day before. Of course one can't be definite that the photo shows activity related to the change of service but I think it's quite likely. The lorry on the right appears to be an ex military 3 tonner converted for parcels or local delivery traffic. I'm beginning to think I've got to much time on my hands.... Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2014 I think that the date could be very precise. The changeover date, 06/01/1952 was a Sunday. The two chidren may be on their way to school, which would make this the Monday, but I would expect the amendments to the bus stop signs would be done on the day of change or the day before. Of course one can't be definite that the photo shows activity related to the change of service but I think it's quite likely. The lorry on the right appears to be an ex military 3 tonner converted for parcels or local delivery traffic. I'm beginning to think I've got to much time on my hands.... Pete Don't forget that many schools opened on Saturdays back then, especially the sort that insisted on uniforms being worn at all times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Not only what Mike said above but I remember wearing my school uniform to visit my Grandmother on a Sunday because it was treated like a suit in those days...(when I was as young as the children in the photo that is - short pants were considered compulsory until 12 years of age). Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2014 The Ford van is typical of London Transport service stock. The lorry could also be LT service stock rather than ex military as LT favoured open lorries with a tilt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb 3c Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Clothes and vehicles look around 1950 to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted August 1, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 1, 2014 I think that the date could be very precise. The changeover date, 06/01/1952 was a Sunday. The two chidren may be on their way to school, which would make this the Monday, but I would expect the amendments to the bus stop signs would be done on the day of change or the day before. Of course one can't be definite that the photo shows activity related to the change of service but I think it's quite likely. The lorry on the right appears to be an ex military 3 tonner converted for parcels or local delivery traffic. I'm beginning to think I've got to much time on my hands.... Pete You can just make out the registration letters of the RT, LYR which was issued as a complete batch (1-999) in April 1951, most if not all going to RT type buses so I think you are correct as to the date as new buses with those registrations would have been issued to garages over the following months. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Surely Grove Park trams were conduit operated? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 This is the the Grove park terminus. Terminus of the 54 and 74 tram routes the last mile of the route was under the overhead wires the change pit from the conduit being in Downham way. The wires look close together like trolly bus wires this is because the shot shows the end single track stub where the conductor would have changed the trolly from one wire to the other for the return run. Just to the left of this picture just out of sight is the set of left hand points where the track doubles and the tram moves back to the left hand track and the wires move apart. Judging by the lack of advertizing on the RT buses (A well known sign on the bus for trams buses) I agree that its on or about the change over day either Saturday or Sunday. AT the time there was a lot of local interest in the tram abandonment each stage witnessing large crowds and tram spotters riding the last cars and as has been stated the school uniform was de-rigger for kids to wear as there Sunday best. To give you an idea of the change over here's is a well known London Transport film of the change over process called "The elephant will never forget" PS don't forget to turn the volume up and have a good sing song. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted August 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2014 Surely Grove Park trams were conduit operated? They were for part of the route but the Downham Way section was overhead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austrag Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Nothing changes, you wait for one and three come along! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 They could be on driver training, mind you I'll take that back as they seem to have full destination blinds on display if they were on training they would most likely have not in service or special on there displays Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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