BITTON

[Andrew P]

Jason's comment was a bit misleading. Perhaps he meant that Templot doesn't do all the work for you. It is quite possible to make any type of slip with the current Templot. Essentially, you create a diamond crossing and add switches and the linking slip rails, though you have to do quite a bit of work to achieve this. First time can be something of a nightmare, but after you've done it once it's fairly straightforward. Video of creating a single slip here with Templot2 and an old page about doing it with earlier versions here. There's also plenty of discussion on the Templot Club pages.

 

Nick

Thanks Nick, I'm sure you guys know what your all talking about but I tell you all this, once Bitton is built, its up and running and I'm looking for a Job to do, I'm going to have a go at some track and a point because I'd love to learn more.

 

Thanks again for all your help and info.

 

Bodge.

[Andrew P]

Nick's right, it is possible but there are quite a few steps and even having followed them yesterday to create the above template, I don't think zip could do another now without referring back to the tutorial again.

 

The tutorials are pretty good, it must be said.

Jason, thanks mate, I will one day give it a go.

 

Bodge.

[The Stationmaster]

Your right Ray, several trains a week did just that from both the North and South, collecting Flowers, Fruit and Veg, and Hides for the Paper Mills.

 

Bodge

No doubt - but basically they would have been very straightforward pick-up/drop-off jobs with the only constraint being positioning of vehicles in the yard (if that was done by the train engine.  The yard is laid out for shunting most of it from the Up side through the straight road of the slip as Jason has identified.

 

Something arriving from Bath would put off it traffic from the Up Line and would form up anything to go back to Bath where it could be accessed off the crossover from the Down (which would constrain the length of what could be taken back to Bath.  The engine would then return to the Up, cross to the Down through the turnout in the slip and proceed along the Down in order to set back into the yard from the station end to attach what it is going to take back to Bath.

 

If a Down train happens to turnround in the yard at Bitton it would, in effect do exactly the opposite - shunt off the Down on arrival and form its outward train then crossover and set back in off the IUp to attach its train.

 

The working at Bitton was clearly remarkably straightforward (but, of course, no less modelling interest for all that) as it merited not a single entry in the 1960 Sectional Appendix other that its appearance in Table A (which simply showed that it was there!).

[The Stationmaster]

BTW Working Timetables for the area can be found online here but the dates might entirely suit your needs (you want 'Bristol District' and regrettably there aren't freight & passenger books for the same year.

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=572

[The Bigbee Line]

I've been away and this thread had gained pages and pages. Can't keep up (well done).

 

On the subject of WTTs freights seem to have a very small time slot at stations. Was the shunting outside this or did the freight trains just run late.

 

When I was a guard at Ashford, Kent I remember a driver telling me that they would get busy shunting on the Maidstone East line and need relief at Charing, that was the second station. He also said they had a van next to the loco with LCL traffic.

[Ray H]

Ray I think your more or less spot on on every count, the Down outer Home signal is just beyond the Buffer of the Head Shunt, now I cant find evidence of its length so on my model it will have a head shunt of about 3ft, enough to store a nice rake of wagons, or uses to shunt the yard without interfering with the Main Line.

 

That said, a down Goods, sets back into the Yard, and detaches the Loco, and then uses the down line to run round, BUT and its a BIG BUT it can only access the Goods Loop via the Up Main, going through the Slip to the Up Line and then back into the Yard via the Slip to the Goods Loop.

 

In the book it states that when shunting was taking place trains on the Down Line were held at the Outer Home Signal, so about level with the end of the head shunt. But I also think that this would be a rairety  as the Main would take priority every time.

 

The Up Main can be free to access once the Loco has performed the run round and is in the Yard.

 

Once again, thanks for your input, it all helps.

 

Bodge.

There's no outer home signals. Each line has a distant, home and starter and the up line has an advance starter, the latter possibly to allow a loco running round to do so without fouling the section ahead.

 

I think that either your book is wrong or the diagram you have relates to a different time period.

 

The down home signal shown in your diagram an in at least one image on this thread is far too close to the crossover for a train to be allowed to approach Bitton (i.e. be accepted from Warmley) whilst the crossover/slip was in use. Likewise, once a train has been given permission to approach from Warmley movements across the /crossover/slip wouldn't be allowed as they would foul the overlap on the home signal, an overlap that must be kept clear until the train has passed or (possibly) is known to be at a stand at the home signal.

 

However, it may just have been possible that a train could have been brought to a stand at the down home signal and then for a crossing move to be allowed although I think this unlikely for two reasons. Firstly, the down platform would need to be clear to allow a train to approach from Warmley anyway so there's no point (excuse the pun) in bringing the train to a halt at the home signal other than monmentarily if the section ahead isn't clear. Secondly, as the shunt moves were all controlled by handsignals there could be a risk that a train standing at the home signal may mistake the handsignal as applying to them when it is applying to a shunting move. I'll leave you to guess where that might lead.

[Ray H]

BTW Working Timetables for the area can be found online here but the dates might entirely suit your needs (you want 'Bristol District' and regrettably there aren't freight & passenger books for the same year.

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=572

With apologies for deviating from Andy's thread, that is a brilliant site. Does anyone know of a similar site for the Midland Region out of Euston including branches?

[The Stationmaster]

There's no outer home signals. Each line has a distant, home and starter and the up line has an advance starter, the latter possibly to allow a loco running round to do so without fouling the section ahead.

 

I think that either your book is wrong or the diagram you have relates to a different time period.

 

The down home signal shown in your diagram an in at least one image on this thread is far too close to the crossover for a train to be allowed to approach Bitton (i.e. be accepted from Warmley) whilst the crossover/slip was in use. Likewise, once a train has been given permission to approach from Warmley movements across the /crossover/slip wouldn't be allowed as they would foul the overlap on the home signal, an overlap that must be kept clear until the train has passed or (possibly) is known to be at a stand at the home signal.

 

However, it may just have been possible that a train could have been brought to a stand at the down home signal and then for a crossing move to be allowed although I think this unlikely for two reasons. Firstly, the down platform would need to be clear to allow a train to approach from Warmley anyway so there's no point (excuse the pun) in bringing the train to a halt at the home signal other than monmentarily if the section ahead isn't clear. Secondly, as the shunt moves were all controlled by handsignals there could be a risk that a train standing at the home signal may mistake the handsignal as applying to them when it is applying to a shunting move. I'll leave you to guess where that might lead.

Excellent stuff Ray but for teh sake of pedantry (and to avoid confusions with other types of signalling) the term is 'Clearing Point' and not overlap.

 

The Regulations require the line to be clear for 440yards in advance of the outermost Home Signal before a train can be accepted from the signalbox in rear.  And - as Ray has clearly explained, that means nothing can approach while there is a shunt being made across for the Up Line to the yard (unless a special Regulation which relaxed acceptances was in force and that would be highly unlikely at Bitton, especially on the Down Line).

[Andrew P]

No doubt - but basically they would have been very straightforward pick-up/drop-off jobs with the only constraint being positioning of vehicles in the yard (if that was done by the train engine.  The yard is laid out for shunting most of it from the Up side through the straight road of the slip as Jason has identified.

 

Something arriving from Bath would put off it traffic from the Up Line and would form up anything to go back to Bath where it could be accessed off the crossover from the Down (which would constrain the length of what could be taken back to Bath.  The engine would then return to the Up, cross to the Down through the turnout in the slip and proceed along the Down in order to set back into the yard from the station end to attach what it is going to take back to Bath.

 

If a Down train happens to turnround in the yard at Bitton it would, in effect do exactly the opposite - shunt off the Down on arrival and form its outward train then crossover and set back in off the IUp to attach its train.

 

The working at Bitton was clearly remarkably straightforward (but, of course, no less modelling interest for all that) as it merited not a single entry in the 1960 Sectional Appendix other that its appearance in Table A (which simply showed that it was there!).

Thanks for your input Mike, I love shunting puzzle layouts and Bitton will be no exception, especially when I sit down one day to work out the correct timetable and stock requirements.

 

Bodge.

[Andrew P]

BTW Working Timetables for the area can be found online here but the dates might entirely suit your needs (you want 'Bristol District' and regrettably there aren't freight & passenger books for the same year.

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=572

Thanks Mike, I'll study those.

 

Bodge.

[Andrew P]

I've been away and this thread had gained pages and pages. Can't keep up (well done).

 

On the subject of WTTs freights seem to have a very small time slot at stations. Was the shunting outside this or did the freight trains just run late.

 

When I was a guard at Ashford, Kent I remember a driver telling me that they would get busy shunting on the Maidstone East line and need relief at Charing, that was the second station. He also said they had a van next to the loco with LCL traffic.

Thanks for the info Ernie, I would imagine that the shunting would all be done by a Local Goods Loco on a daily or twice daily service.

 

Bodge.

[Andrew P]

There's no outer home signals. Each line has a distant, home and starter and the up line has an advance starter, the latter possibly to allow a loco running round to do so without fouling the section ahead.

 

I think that either your book is wrong or the diagram you have relates to a different time period.

 

The down home signal shown in your diagram an in at least one image on this thread is far too close to the crossover for a train to be allowed to approach Bitton (i.e. be accepted from Warmley) whilst the crossover/slip was in use. Likewise, once a train has been given permission to approach from Warmley movements across the /crossover/slip wouldn't be allowed as they would foul the overlap on the home signal, an overlap that must be kept clear until the train has passed or (possibly) is known to be at a stand at the home signal.

 

However, it may just have been possible that a train could have been brought to a stand at the down home signal and then for a crossing move to be allowed although I think this unlikely for two reasons. Firstly, the down platform would need to be clear to allow a train to approach from Warmley anyway so there's no point (excuse the pun) in bringing the train to a halt at the home signal other than monmentarily if the section ahead isn't clear. Secondly, as the shunt moves were all controlled by handsignals there could be a risk that a train standing at the home signal may mistake the handsignal as applying to them when it is applying to a shunting move. I'll leave you to guess where that might lead.

Ray the outer Home signal by the head shunt could be some way away from the slip, as the plan I have is only sketchmatic. But I cant imagine passenger trains being held at that signal as they would always take priority surly.

 

Bodge.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for the info Ernie, I would imagine that the shunting would all be done by a Local Goods Loco on a daily or twice daily service.

 

Bodge.

I agree however (I like 'howevers') with talk about flower traffic it could well be that a van might be attached to a through freight or a passenger train (a local one of the latter almost certainly).  Flowers were generally passenger rated traffic so therefore travelled in, or in vans attached to passenger or parcels trains but I believe the LMS did go in for sending such things in freight trains.  But the 'however' might give you a chance to pick up the flower vans with something a bit different from the freight trip.

[Ray H]

Ray the outer Home signal by the head shunt could be some way away from the slip, as the plan I have is only sketchmatic. But I cant imagine passenger trains being held at that signal as they would always take priority surly.

 

Bodge.

One of the pictures posted earlier shows the outer home signal (in what I'm pretty certain is) almost adjacent to the crossover - I'll hunt back through the thread and see if I can find it. That's why I mentioned above that I thought the "headshunt" was so short - more like a sand drag than a headshunt. No. 6 signal may under these circumstances been an ordinary red disc. - see edit below

 

The home signal would need to be at least 440 yards back from the crossover (as Mike has confirmed) to allow a train to approach whilst shunting was ongoing.

 

Can I also re-iterate that there are no Outer home signals at Bitton, just plain home signals - there weren't enough levers in the frame according to your diagram.

 

You'll note that whoever drew your plan of the (signal) layout has (intentionally) left gaps in the running lines between the distant signal and the home signal in both directions. This is normal procedure to indicate there is some distance between the two. I would have expected that there would have been a further gap between the home signal and the crossover if the two weren't close to each other.

 

Edited to add:-

 

The image in post 534 shows what I'm fairly certain is the down home signal in what I take to be a position right by the crossover.

 

Interestingly, in what seems to be a difference to Andy's drawing, the down starter is clearly shown at the end of the platform in post 561, possibly even on the station side of the underbridge. The drawing shows the same signal cantilevered and beyond the bridge.

 

With Andy's book suggesting there was a down outer home one begins to wonder if the drawing that Andy has dates from a different time to that which the book relates to?

 

Also, having re-read and actually taken in the content of the caption to the picture in post 534, there is confirmation there that signals 6 & 7 were both yellow discs.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Ray H

[Andrew P]

I agree however (I like 'howevers') with talk about flower traffic it could well be that a van might be attached to a through freight or a passenger train (a local one of the latter almost certainly).  Flowers were generally passenger rated traffic so therefore travelled in, or in vans attached to passenger or parcels trains but I believe the LMS did go in for sending such things in freight trains.  But the 'however' might give you a chance to pick up the flower vans with something a bit different from the freight trip.

Hi Mike, here's a quote from the book;

 

Two 'pads' (a coffin-shaped wicker basket with a lid) of daffodils were taken daily during the season to St Philip's passenger Station, Bristol,where they were sold. Another Nursery sent flowers and cucumbers by rail, a Van on the 6.55pm Ex Temple Meads being filled and taken to Bath and going out on the 10.15 Perishables to Derby. Mushrooms loaded on two wheel sack trucks were put on the 5.45pm Ex Bath, the trucks being sent back empty from Mangotsfield after enabling a speedy transfer to be made between trains at Mangotsfield.

Another Bitton Nursuryman sent Fruit to Glasgow and Edinburgh where they commanded a higher price.

 

A quote from Colin C Maggs excellent book; The Mangotsfield to Bath Line.

 

Bodge.

[Andrew P]

One of the pictures posted earlier shows the outer home signal (in what I'm pretty certain is) almost adjacent to the crossover - I'll hunt back through the thread and see if I can find it. That's why I mentioned above that I thought the "headshunt" was so short - more like a sand drag than a headshunt. No. 6 signal may under these circumstances been an ordinary red disc.

 

The home signal would need to be at least 440 yards back from the crossover (as Mike has confirmed) to allow a train to approach whilst shunting was ongoing.

 

Can I also re-iterate that there are no Outer home signals at Bitton, just plain home signals - there weren't enough levers in the frame according to your diagram.

 

You'll note that whoever drew your plan of the (signal) layout has (intentionally) left gaps in the running lines between the distant signal and the home signal in both directions. This is normal procedure to indicate there is some distance between the two. I would have expected that there would have been a further gap between the home signal and the crossover if the two weren't close to each other.

Evening Ray, I think I'm gradually getting my head around it, so here again is the rack and signaling plan I acquired from the internet, I agree about the rail breaks indicating some unspecified, but probable considerable distance so I am omitting /  forgetting about Signals 1 and 12 as those would be way off the Plan.

 

So commencing with Signal No's 2 and 11, I have been calling these Outer Home, so what are they and what do they do again?

 

3 and 10, I assume are Starter Signals.

 

And so what is 9?

Bodge

[Sasquatch]

Hattons have open cap 1Fs in stock from Bachmann. You have to find an excuse to have one of these Bodge, they're exquisite !

 

[Ray H]

Evening Ray, I think I'm gradually getting my head around it, so here again is the track and signaling plan I acquired from the internet, I agree about the rail breaks indicating some unspecified, but probably considerable distance so I am omitting /  forgetting about Signals 1 and 12 as those would be way off the Plan.

 

So commencing with Signal No's 2 and 11, I have been calling these Outer Home, so what are they and what do they do again?

 

3 and 10, I assume are Starter Signals.

 

And so what is 9?

Bitton Station Plan - Copy.jpg

Bodge

2 & 11 are both home signals, 3 & 10 as you surmise are starting signals and 9 is an advanced starting signal. Signals 3 & 9 are the signals that control entrance to the section ahead.

 

I agree with omitting the two distant signals as they're too far off the layout.

 

Note that signals 10 & 11 (at least) are lower quadrant from the pictures. The others (apart from 6 & 7) appear to be upper quadrant.

 

There is an image of a cattle train dated 1933 in post 632. The down starting signal isn't visible in the picture on here, is it visible in the book?

[Andrew P]

One of the pictures posted earlier shows the outer home signal (in what I'm pretty certain is) almost adjacent to the crossover - I'll hunt back through the thread and see if I can find it. That's why I mentioned above that I thought the "headshunt" was so short - more like a sand drag than a headshunt. No. 6 signal may under these circumstances been an ordinary red disc. - see edit below

 

The home signal would need to be at least 440 yards back from the crossover (as Mike has confirmed) to allow a train to approach whilst shunting was ongoing.

 

Can I also re-iterate that there are no Outer home signals at Bitton, just plain home signals - there weren't enough levers in the frame according to your diagram.

 

You'll note that whoever drew your plan of the (signal) layout has (intentionally) left gaps in the running lines between the distant signal and the home signal in both directions. This is normal procedure to indicate there is some distance between the two. I would have expected that there would have been a further gap between the home signal and the crossover if the two weren't close to each other.

 

Edited to add:-

 

The image in post 534 shows what I'm fairly certain is the down home signal in what I take to be a position right by the crossover.

 

Interestingly, in what seems to be a difference to Andy's drawing, the down starter is clearly shown at the end of the platform in post 561, possibly even on the station side of the underbridge. The drawing shows the same signal cantilevered and beyond the bridge.

 

With Andy's book suggesting there was a down outer home one begins to wonder if the drawing that Andy has dates from a different time to that which the book relates to?

 

Also, having re-read and actually taken in the content of the caption to the picture in post 534, there is confirmation there that signals 6 & 7 were both yellow discs.

Ray, I'm just wondering if that might actually be the Signal for the Up, i.e. No 9 on the plan.

 

I think your right, it does look a lot closer to the Platform rather than the other side of the Bridge.

 

Bodge.

[Andrew P]

Hattons have open cap 1Fs in stock from Bachmann. You have to find an excuse to have one of these Bodge, they're exquisite !

Hi Shaun, I do have to admit, that is some stunning model, I don't think I can justify one but if I were doing a shunting plank then it would be on my list.

 

Bodge.

[Andrew P]

2 & 11 are both home signals, 3 & 10 as you surmise are starting signals and 9 is an advanced starting signal. Signals 3 & 9 are the signals that control entrance to the section ahead.

 

I agree with omitting the two distant signals as they're too far off the layout.

 

Note that signals 10 & 11 (at least) are lower quadrant from the pictures. The others (apart from 6 & 7) appear to be upper quadrant.

 

There is an image of a cattle train dated 1933 in post 632. The down starting signal isn't visible in the picture on here, is it visible in the book?

Cheers Ray, as far as the Lower Quadrant Signals are concerned, because Bitton is not going to be 100% perfect I will probably use Upper Quadrant all through for ease of memory, but I will make a final decisions on that nearer the time of Signaling.

 

Bodge.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Ray

 

Would number 10 signal be a starting signal? It protects the point work.

 

Number 3 was on a cantilever post past the bridge. At some point in time it was replaced by a upper quadrant signal the station side of the bridge ( from photos in the Middleton Press book Bath Green Park to Bristol).

 

I am still confused why number 11 exsist?

[Andrew P]

Hi Ray

 

Would number 10 signal be a starting signal? It protects the point work.

 

Number 3 was on a cantilever post past the bridge. At some point in time it was replaced by a upper quadrant signal the station side of the bridge ( from photos in the Middleton Press book Bath Green Park to Bristol).

 

I am still confused why number 11 exsist?

Hi Clive, according to the book I think it protec's the Station when Shunting is going on.

 

Bodge.

[Andrew P]

Just had another look through my photos and found this one from a while ago, it shows the Down Point to good effect and also the curve of the the Line towards Warmley.

There also what seems to be a Signal in the distance but I cant make out which side it is.

 

Bodge

Edited September 7, 2014 by Andrew P

[67A]

Hi Andy,

 

An hour and a bit later and I am far more educated on matters railway than I thought I needed to be. I always thought I had a reasonable broad understanding which in honesty I probably do, but my 'gaps' are quite alarming it seems to me. I have learned more about signalling, train formation and working arrangements in the last hour reading through Bitton than I have in many years and its all thanks to the free minded individuals who offer their knowledge to people who they have probably never met or likely to meet.

 

RMweb is indeed a fantastic forum, many thanks to all contributors and to you Andy for starting a new topic based upon an actual location, had you chosen a fictitious theme none of these questions would have arisen never mind answered - well done you!