RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2015 Haven't I read somewhere that a DCC track bus shouldn't be an oval? Doesn't it need to have distinct ends with terminators? Yes Ray, If you read the modelling literature you'll sometimes hear people say that. However, my first DCC layout had an oval bus without any problems. It wasn't anywhere near the size of the last one, for which I didn't complete the oval loop - but just terminated the wire (some recommend capacitors at the terminations - I didn't bother). That, too, worked fine. DCC seems very robust to whatever bus you throw at it - though care does need to be taken to keep the bus wires reasonably parallel and a fair distance apart (I used 30cm) to avoid inductance effects. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2015 . . . . though care does need to be taken to keep the bus wires reasonably parallel and a fair distance apart (I used 30cm) to avoid inductance effects. Jeff Did you mean an old fashioned foot apart? I kept mine apart but nowhere near that much and on our large club O gauge layout we've no bus and do generally rely on fishplates - the layout's over 40ft long by 12ft wide and operated by the basic (2amp) NCE kit and yet we've had four sound locos sitting around and at some times as many as three locos all moving together on the same oval of track. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Andy, I recall you saying your boards will be liftable for wiring etc, if so how does this 'bus' thing work, do you just have the two main rings along say the walls and long connector wires from each board? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2015 Did you mean an old fashioned foot apart? I kept mine apart but nowhere near that much and on our large club O gauge layout we've no bus and do generally rely on fishplates - the layout's over 40ft long by 12ft wide and operated by the basic (2amp) NCE kit and yet we've had four sound locos sitting around and at some times as many as three locos all moving together on the same oval of track. Yes, Ray - a good 12"!! Funny thing, units. As a scientist I always stick to metric. But for building work, and general chit-chat, it's often feet and inches! Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Andy, I recall you saying your boards will be liftable for wiring etc, if so how does this 'bus' thing work, do you just have the two main rings along say the walls and long connector wires from each board? Mike the Bus will run under the boards with interconnecting Plug and Sockets between boards. The Bus will be a No 9 Routemaster for Walford, hahhahhheeeeee 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Out all day tomorrow so not much in the way of updates until the evening I'm afraid. I was hoping that something would arrive today for photographing but unfortunately it was a no show today. Hopefully it will arrive tomorrow. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PeterBB Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2015 That (bus bar) sounds like an opportunity to make use of some of that old Peco track you've got hanging around. I've found old track on the underside of the board makes it easy to solder drop wires at any point rather than having to pare back insulation on wires. Personally I think it looks neat as well. Kind regards, Neil Using track for the bus bar maybe OK on a permanent layout but we need to remember that some exhibition sites would not take kindly to 'open' i.e. non-insulated 'wire' on an exhibition layout. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Using track for the bus bar maybe OK on a permanent layout but we need to remember that some exhibition sites would not take kindly to 'open' i.e. non-insulated 'wire' on an exhibition layout. Peter Its only 16V the same as the Track, so I don't think many would worry. and you even hang a set of LED's from it to illuminate the underside for repairs at a show when it all goes T / UP. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrkirtley800 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Jeff, I also used solely metric all my working life, having started as a lab assistant in 1953 (wow!!) but for my joinery work, like building baseboards and dolls houses (for the grand children) I stick with feet and inches. I find it much easier that way. Derek 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PeterBB Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2015 I agree, The material referred to is 2.5mm Twin and earth cable, Solid copper cores. Electricians, please look away!!!! I use this stuff, only the red and black wires, I strip off the outer insulation, I then put one end of the red or black wire in a vice, and I use a blade to cut away the plastic insulation, once started it will sometimes just come away, leaving just the bare copper. I then do the other colour. I use the un insulated earth wire (it's thinner) for the accessory bus wires (it also gave me a physical reference to which is which). I mount them with a chocolate box connector (see picture). Wire.jpg I also mount one wire on one of the side boards, and the other one to the other side of the board. I keep the track feeds in relation to this always. Jinty ;-) Like this one and use of the vice to make cutting off the insulation will solve a problem. Just a note on the wire ... in the 'old' black and red system cooker wire was the 6125, much thicker than 2.5 mm which was the 'normal' for ring mains. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2015 Mike the Bus will run under the boards with interconnecting Plug and Sockets between boards. The Bus will be a No 9 Routemaster for Walford, hahhahhheeeeee Na the number 9 goes from Aldwych to Hammersmith. Here have you ever noticed that in Walford no one works outside of "the square" and they are all related to Ian Beal. Other things washing machines are banned, and no one is allowed to have breakfast at home they all have to go to the cafe. Wonder if they serve Bodgit's Prize Bitton Sausages in Kath's cafe? Back to the plugs and sockets, use big uns. Again to reduce the electrical resistance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PeterBB Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2015 Andy, Ray and Jeff, ... and uncle Tom Cobley an'al An Interesting discussion about circuits or endings on DCC. As Andy says our club layout has a single continuous bus bar (red and black and close together). At our recent Mince Pie weekend we had no track supply problems at all neither DC nor DCC and we have quite a long length approx. 100 feet. As far as I can recall the diameter is no bigger than 1.5mm. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 OT- imperial /metric. Take care with longer lengths - metric (at least on a Stanley tape) is numbered at metres and centimetres (starting again at 10, 20, etc.), but imperial is marked off all the way in inches. As I found out 25 years ago, when I thought I should use this newfangled metric stuff, and cut off a couple of floor joists a metre short! Everything got smaller in changing to metric. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Hi Andy, been out for a few hours and can't believe how many posts you've had about bus wires. Just remember one thing. If you use cooker wire for a bus and you get a short somewhere, your Prodigy will melt long before the bus wire does. Edited January 6, 2015 by tender Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donington Road Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Like this one and use of the vice to make cutting off the insulation will solve a problem. Just a note on the wire ... in the 'old' black and red system cooker wire was the 6125, much thicker than 2.5 mm which was the 'normal' for ring mains. Peter I fitted a new kitchen a few years ago and needed to change the position of the cooker socket and put in a new ring main. The fuse box is near the front door and kitchen at the back of the house, so while the floor boards were up upstairs I decided to put in a seperate 45amp cable just for the cooker as well as the 30amp ring for new sockets. The new cooker arrived and it was fitted with a 13amp plug. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2015 I fitted a new kitchen a few years ago and needed to change the position of the cooker socket and put in a new ring main. The fuse box is near the front door and kitchen at the back of the house, so while the floor boards were up upstairs I decided to put in a seperate 45amp cable just for the cooker as well as the 30amp ring for new sockets. The new cooker arrived and it was fitted with a 13amp plug. Hi Mick I take it you have a wife like mine who see's and buys something she likes but never checks the specification. I also have "so and so would look nice over there".......which means a weekend of altering the plumbing, wiring etc. along with many trips to B&Q for new parts. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2015 Some really wierd stuff in the last two pages. It never seems that easy to attach wires to NS rail so unless you have some old brass track I reckon the copper wire would be easier to solder to. I would suggest for runs of a few metres the volt drop would be minimal (I did check once the values once didn't seem a problem except for garden layouts) 2.5mm cable should be fine, for 0 gauge with Heljan motors I would suggest 4mm cable. For short runs 1.5mm is ok also for layouts where the max current is only 3A. If you dont have any scrap cable available you can buy single core cables usually G/Y Earth Wire As to the other stuff Someone seems to think 2.5T&E is ok for cookers or 9KW showers ( usually 6mm and 10mm a bit of an overkill for most layouts) At Highfrequencies you can get funny effects such as the bulk of a signal being carried on the outside edge of the wire. Cutting stands can also cause funny effects on digital signals as the impeadance changes at that point can cause signal reflections but unless the cable is loosly packed it would not be a big issue for us. I cannot believe the inductance effect would be an issue in any bus run unless you are running the two very close for a long distance. Also it is worth trying the coin or pliers across the track on the farthest bits of track to check it will trigger a shut down if there is sufficient resistance to avoid that overheating in the event of a short is possible. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2015 I fitted a new kitchen a few years ago and needed to change the position of the cooker socket and put in a new ring main. The fuse box is near the front door and kitchen at the back of the house, so while the floor boards were up upstairs I decided to put in a seperate 45amp cable just for the cooker as well as the 30amp ring for new sockets. The new cooker arrived and it was fitted with a 13amp plug. The oven (for a built in oven) will be suitable for a 13A plug but not an electric hob max power on a 13a socket should be just over 3KW a four ring hob all on will normally exceed that. I had a lot of trouble with people wanting a new shower would go out to B&Q and buy a 10 or 12KW one and ask me to fit it. I would then have to explain that the existing 6mm cable was not sufficient nor the mains MCB. Bit of a b99er if it was buried in the wall behind the tiles! Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donington Road Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Hi Mick I take it you have a wife like mine who see's and buys something she likes but never checks the specification. I also have "so and so would look nice over there".......which means a weekend of altering the plumbing, wiring etc. along with many trips to B&Q for new parts. Oh too true, she keeps going on about a new bathroom at the moment, nothing wrong with the not so old one. The tin bath has got no holes in it and the outside loo is cosy Why do they buy so many gadgets that they deem as being the best thing since sliced bread, then they never see the light of day again once they are out of their packaging Edited January 6, 2015 by Donington Road 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donington Road Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 The oven (for a built in oven) will be suitable for a 13A plug but not an electric hob max power on a 13a socket should be just over 3KW a four ring hob all on will normally exceed that. I had a lot of trouble with people wanting a new shower would go out to B&Q and buy a 10 or 12KW one and ask me to fit it. I would then have to explain that the existing 6mm cable was not sufficient nor the mains MCB. Bit of a b99er if it was buried in the wall behind the tiles! Don It was a single oven Don with a gas hob. It did need its own cable, if just to keep it off the ring main which had other heavy load stuff, but 45amp was way over the top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Hello, Bang a brass panel pin in your timber.Solder bus wire to it. Bang another brass panel pin in where your dropper wire needs to be. Solder that and your bus wire to it plus your next bit of bus wire ad infinitum. Single core bus wires can be wrapped round the panel pins after stripping sufficient insulation to assist while soldering.Electrical multi-core solder is preferable to avoid corrosion. If you have a friendly electrician you can possibly even get wiring offcuts left over from jobs. trustytrev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted January 7, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Oh too true, she keeps going on about a new bathroom at the moment, nothing wrong with the not so old one. The tin bath has got no holes in it and the outside loo is cosy Why do they buy so many gadgets that they deem as being the best thing since sliced bread, then they never see the light of day again once they are out of their packaging BATHROOM Now you have upset me.....She did get in some so called professionals to fit the new bath room, a few years ago. The shower pump gave up recently. Off to B&Q for new pump. After removing the tiles* and plywood that was boxing in the pump...and spending a modelling afternoon in A&E with a cut finger...new pump fitted. Suggestion, how about a hinged flap so I can change the pump when this one packs in....NO....all boxed in again, off to B&Q for tile cement etc......"The shelf looks like it is slopes" says she *No tiles were broken when I removed them Edit...Bodge can I borrow Lee next time my lovely wife wants some major DIY done? Edited January 7, 2015 by Clive Mortimore Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 HI all, I think I should own up to having a wife that has a fetish, its a quite serious fetish - she just can't resist anything with a 13amp plug on the end, to explain this phenomena a little more graphically - we have 3 coffee machines and she does not drink coffee and when I do its usually instant! They are all indeed from another galaxy of that I am convinced! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted January 7, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2015 Why do they buy so many gadgets models that they deem as being the best thing since sliced bread, then they never see the light of day again once they are out of their packaging I wonder how many times that sentiment has been overheard? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jintyman Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Just remember one thing. If you use cooker wire for a bus and you get a short somewhere, your Prodigy will melt long before the bus wire does. Only if the Prodigy isn't working properly in the first place!!!!! The Prodigy should trip once a short is detected. A simple test as mentioned above will clarify that it's working. Jinty ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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