Deneside - BR North Eastern Region

[BoD]

It must be close to being finished - you have buses on your bridge.

Edited November 14, 2018 by BoD

[Brian D]

It must be close to being finished - you have buses on your bridge.

 

Ha ha.  If I was brave I could post a view from the shed door which would without doubt prove the layout was far from finished and it would also highlight the parlous state that exists below base board level  .

 

Regards,

Brian.

[Brian D]

Before finishing the canopies I thought it best to complete the station building to which the canopy needs to mate, if you'd pardon the expression.  The one I made earlier...

 

 

 

...has unfortunately continued to "develop" - I made a huge error using cheap photopaper for the textures which have grown pink with time, they are supposed to be ashlar.  The H shape plan also needs adjustment and the height altered slightly to mate with the canopy.  So, the trusty TurboCAD has been pressed into service to produce revised base outlines of the revised structure as below.

 

 

 

I have also taken the opportunity to eradicate some of the arched lintols (curved window heads) - they are a pain to cut in thick (2mm) grey board with any accuracy.

 

Regards,

Brian.

[manna]

G'day Folks

 

Just 'Pink' sandstone, innit.....

 

manna

[Brian D]

G'day Folks

 

Just 'Pink' sandstone, innit.....

 

manna

 

Why aye man 

[Brian D]

The station building reconstruction continues.

 

Meanwhile, a coastal oil train, topped and tailed with brake vans to aid reversal, is held at the station limits...

 

 

...awaiting departure of a coal train from the goods arrival road.

 

 

 

The two trains pass each other...

 

 

 

...before the oil train is allowed to proceed.

 

 

 

 

 

Regards,

Brian.

[imt]

Why aye man 

 

Surely Frosterly marble?

[Brian D]

Surely Frosterly marble?

 

I doubt whether the NER could afford it 

Regards,

Brian.

[Brian D]

This is the current state of play with the reconstruction of the station building having spent all afternoon cutting almost all of the remaining parts required for assembly (bar the roof).

 

 

Nothing is glued together yet, hence the elastic band.

 

 

The parts cut today, mainly for the two side wings, are shown here in the plastic container with the old pink building behind for colour comparison.  Hopefully I will get to the same state of assembly with the new building in the next few days.

 

Regards,

Brian.

[Brian D]

Strewth, over a week since I posted anything here.  This is not to say I haven't been busy, I was just saving you from yet more boring shots of card being stuck together.

 

Anyway, the station building has been sufficiently advanced so that I can "mate" the canopy to it forming a small concourse of sorts.  I gave up on the idea of constructing a pitched roof canopy adjoining the station building (far too tricky for my small brain) so I have made a flat roofed module instead shown under construction here...

 

 

...which necessitated that adjoining platform canopies needed to be hip ended.  Here are some shots of the current state of play.

 

 

 

 

The two platform end units still need finishing, all the canopy supports are temporary and the station building is far from finished but I am reasonably pleased with the overall effect.

 

Regards,

Brian

[BoD]

If I could make only a tenth of the progress that you do I would be delighted.

[ISW]

Strewth, over a week since I posted anything here.  This is not to say I haven't been busy, I was just saving you from yet more boring shots of card being stuck together.

 

Anyway, the station building has been sufficiently advanced so that I can "mate" the canopy to it forming a small concourse of sorts.  I gave up on the idea of constructing a pitched roof canopy adjoining the station building (far too tricky for my small brain) so I have made a flat roofed module instead shown under construction here...

 

...which necessitated that adjoining platform canopies needed to be hip ended.  Here are some shots of the current state of play.

 

The two platform end units still need finishing, all the canopy supports are temporary and the station building is far from finished but I am reasonably pleased with the overall effect.

 

Regards,

Brian

Brian,

 

Do you plan to add any 'weathering' to the printed card, and if so how? I ask because I foresee that I'll have to do some in the future.

[Andrew P]

A lot of very good and rewarding work going on there Brian, I love that last shot, out over the sea.

[Luke123]

Apologies if i missed this in an earlier post, but where did you get your back scenes from?

[Brian D]

If I could make only a tenth of the progress that you do I would be delighted.

 

It is still only bibs and bobs here and there.  The layout was commenced proper about 3 and a half years ago.

 

Brian,

 

Do you plan to add any 'weathering' to the printed card, and if so how? I ask because I foresee that I'll have to do some in the future.

 

I will probably follow the Scalescenes advice because I have been using their textures - see here https://scalescenes.com/detailing-weathering/ I have some artist's pastels somewhere.

 

A lot of very good and rewarding work going on there Brian, I love that last shot, out over the sea.

 

The back scene in that shot was photographed at Runswick Bay, North Yorkshire Andy so, yes, looking out to the North Sea.

 

Apologies if i missed this in an earlier post, but where did you get your back scenes from?

 

I make my own photographic back scenes using the Panorama tool in Adobe Photoshop Elements.  These panoramas are then imported to my TurboCad software as an image.  This enables me to increase the size of the single panoramic image so that I can then print the image as multiple A4 sheets either portrait or landscape and these individual sheets are then stuck sequentially onto mounting card cut to size, usually a long strip of card, A4 long side high and however many sheets of A4 width I can glue on to the card.  As I have told Andy, the buffer stop end of the station is Runswick Bay, N Yorks.  The main rear back scene along the back of the station platforms and throat was taken locally (Thames-side Essex) but mainly consists of sky and clouds.  The area behind the loco shed at the bottom of the "U" in this U shaped layout is a panorama of Whitby town and quayside taken from the heights of Whitby Abbey but reversed so that the North Sea is on the left and not the right as it should be.  Some of these are temporary (just printed on plane paper, not photo paper) and will be firmed up in due course.

 

Thanks to you all for your continued interest in my ramblings.

 

Regards to all,

Brian.

[Brian D]

For a while now I have been considering using colour light signals in the station area.  It seems from my researches that both the NER and BR's NE Region were well advanced in the field of colour light signals but I don't remember seeing them on the Durham coast line but they were certainly the thing on the ECML.  It might be a bit of a stretch then to put them on Deneside but of course, BR(NE) used Deneside as a pilot.  Also, rule 1 applies.

 

So, having researched the models available I was immediately attracted to the Train-Tech non DCC models, especially those with a "feather" to indicate the route being given the right away.  For the princely sum of £20 I invested in one of these.

 

 

It only took an hour or so to assemble and went together extremely well (a well designed kit in my opinion) but it is as yet not wired up.  This particular signal will control trains exiting the goods arrival/departure road so a small hole was drilled in the base board at the correct location to see how it looked, thus.

 

 

The main green aspect will allow the shunter to draw stock from arriving trains into the head shunt...

 

 

...and the green aspect with the feather will give departing trains access to the main line.

 

 

The signal is not wired up yet so you have to use your imagination a bit in the last two pics - apologies.  Once I have wired it up I might then decide to order some more of these excellent kits.  The Ratio semaphores' days could be numbered. 

 

Regards,

Brian.

[Brian D]

The last week or so has seen work return to the station building.  I have added an entrance canopy...

 

 

 

...but, being round the back as it were, you will have to look hard to find it...

 

 

...but I'll know it's there  .

 

I have also tiled the various roof panels using Scalescenes' "Pantiles" texture sheet thus.

 

 

 

I printed the texture on A4 white parcel self adhesive (peel off, stick on) labels which makes life so much easier sticking the strips of tiles on to the roof panels.  I also chose the pantile texture so that the station roof sort of matched some of the roofs on the back scene.

 

 

There is still more work to do - ridge tiles, distinctive NER bargeboards, chimney pots etc.  Meanwhile, these arrived...

 

 

...which are to control the Train-tech colour light signals so I have been messing about trying to design a signal control panel...

 

 

...which probably wouldn't pass muster to a signalling professional but must be something I can understand.  My earlier layout, Hawthorn Town, had operating semaphore signals with the levers grouped into "arrivals" and "departures" so I'll probably adopt the same approach this time.

 

Regards,

Brian.

[imt]

Brian,

 

Love you buildings and scenic work!

 

I am not a signalling professional, but that looks very over signalled.  I was going to say something about your Home signal with a feather.  It would be most unlikely for a signal in that position to be only 2 aspect.  The next signal in line will no doubt be the section signal into the next block - way round the corner and off your model - which may easily show RED.  Hence that signal should have a yellow aspect (be a three aspect signal).  I am also not sure what the feather is for?  I didn't say anything then but thought I should now.

 

Now you may want to spend all that money on signals - and it's your layout - but there is no need for them.  Some could be removed, others could be replaced by ground signals if you like.  For example the one on the lower yards area could be a yellow ground signal, with the points always held to the left into the head shunt for safety.  To leave onto the main line it would be cleared to white.

 

The one up from the colliery is fine.  Theoretically it could be a red/yellow signal since it would only show caution into the yard (you would hardly need a green light there!).

 

The one on the extreme left with CJML beside it is the key Home signal.  In the old days it would have been a magnificent multi doll bracket.  These days it would be a red/yellow with a Route Indicator board - showing 1,2,3,4 and Y(ard) probably. They don't come off the shelf ans buying one would cost a small fortune (look at Absolute Aspects web site!).  You could have a JI there, but they are usually reserved for lines where trains are travelling at speed - not here where they will be going slow.  I (like you) cheat because I do not want to pay too much. 

 

The signal at CJ is far too close to the platform starter - why would you tell a train to go and stop it 100 yards later?  You could (should) really remove everything between CJMl and the platform starters.  The key decisions for routing and release are made at those important points.  If you want something (say) to control light engines reversing onto stock in platforms you could have some ground signals near the crossovers.  I am not sure (don't remember) what is beyond the station throat - don't remember a loco yard.  I am not sure why you have the main line beyond the crossover at the end of your platforms marked a 2 way - is there a need for it?

 

I suggest you sit and think what moves where as main line and shunting moves and try to cut back the signals to only those essential.  Too many signals are as bad as none since you spend your life changing things that have no real role.

 

Good luck anyway and have a Happy Christmas.

 

Iain

[Barry O]

Brian,, the distant signal for leaving Horden (just before the trains crossed the Castle Eden Dene viaduct) was a colour light signal. You could always see it from the over bridge at Horden...until a Q6 covered it in smoke pounding towards West Hartlepool on a set of fulls.

Baz

[Ray H]

Can I just throw the following into the ring having just read it in another thread on here? Until the 1970's the signals outside terminal stations controlling routes towards any buffer stops would have had a green proceed aspect and, even in a 3 or 4 aspect signalled area, said signal was most likely to have been limited to a two aspect red/green display.

 

Grouping arrival and departure (direction) levers together was I believe quite normal. The lever numbering would also depend on whether the signaller had his front or back to the tracks/signals (and which side of the line the box was on). Low lever numbers would generally be allocated to movements towards (and away from) the box originating from the signaller's left with the high lever numbers reserved for moves from the other direction.

[imt]

Brian,

 

Not wishing to interfere, I have had a quick look at what I think is the last Deneside layout plan and tried to do a MINIMAL signal plan.  There can be endless arguments about this, and Ray is quite right to point out there are various time considerations about what is "right".  I suggest you apply rule 1 and do what seems and looks right to you.  You have done extremely well doing that so far!!!

 

As far as I can see you have 4 passenger platforms, a goods arrival/departure line and a loco yard that need integrating into any plan.  The main lines labelled M1 and M2 will be dual direction is some cases.  I am not sure what circumstances would dictate when.  There are 2 significant crossovers I have labelled A and B.  Incoming trains for platforms 3 and 4 have to go over this facing crossover.  The Home signal can protect that and set routes.  I have shown 4 JI on the mast the one at 10 o'clock (position1) is for platform 1, Platform 2 doesn't need one (straight ahead) P3 id JI 4 (2 o'clock), P4 JI 5 and the yard (goods arrival) is 6 (4 o'clock).  You can get this made up by CRS if you want to - or good luck doing it yourself!

 

None of the platform starters need anything extra since everything either has access to M2 directly (P3 and P4) or will use crossover B to get to it.

 

The loco shed needs a signal protecting the main line - but that could be a ground signal - it looks like a P on it's side on my diagram.  I am unsure where we go from there.  How do you send locos to P3/P4? You may either put them across crossover B or send them round to crossover A.  If at B you might think of a ground signal for that movement, but you would also have to clear that signal every time a train leaves P1/P2 else the driver would have a heart attack.

 

The goods departure needs a signal too - but it could be a ground signal with a yellow light which means it is passable into the head shunt all the time, and will clear to white for a departure to the main line.

 

Finally the colliery needs a simple signal to protect the main line.

 

There you are 6 main signals, and only one of them complicated, and 2 or 3 ground signals.  You could just ignore the complications on the Home signal and just have a single feather meaning go to line M2.  Most signalling schemes relied on the drivers knowing what was expected of them, and signals (including model ones) are expensive to buy and maintain.

 

Edit: there was supposed to be a photo of a diagram here

 

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by imt

[Brian D]

I

 

Brian,

 

Love you buildings and scenic work!

 

I am not a signalling professional, but that looks very over signalled.  I was going to say something about your Home signal with a feather.  It would be most unlikely for a signal in that position to be only 2 aspect.  The next signal in line will no doubt be the section signal into the next block - way round the corner and off your model - which may easily show RED.  Hence that signal should have a yellow aspect (be a three aspect signal).  I am also not sure what the feather is for?  I didn't say anything then but thought I should now.

 

Now you may want to spend all that money on signals - and it's your layout - but there is no need for them.  Some could be removed, others could be replaced by ground signals if you like.  For example the one on the lower yards area could be a yellow ground signal, with the points always held to the left into the head shunt for safety.  To leave onto the main line it would be cleared to white.

 

The one up from the colliery is fine.  Theoretically it could be a red/yellow signal since it would only show caution into the yard (you would hardly need a green light there!).

 

The one on the extreme left with CJML beside it is the key Home signal.  In the old days it would have been a magnificent multi doll bracket.  These days it would be a red/yellow with a Route Indicator board - showing 1,2,3,4 and Y(ard) probably. They don't come off the shelf ans buying one would cost a small fortune (look at Absolute Aspects web site!).  You could have a JI there, but they are usually reserved for lines where trains are travelling at speed - not here where they will be going slow.  I (like you) cheat because I do not want to pay too much. 

 

The signal at CJ is far too close to the platform starter - why would you tell a train to go and stop it 100 yards later?  You could (should) really remove everything between CJMl and the platform starters.  The key decisions for routing and release are made at those important points.  If you want something (say) to control light engines reversing onto stock in platforms you could have some ground signals near the crossovers.  I am not sure (don't remember) what is beyond the station throat - don't remember a loco yard.  I am not sure why you have the main line beyond the crossover at the end of your platforms marked a 2 way - is there a need for it?

 

I suggest you sit and think what moves where as main line and shunting moves and try to cut back the signals to only those essential.  Too many signals are as bad as none since you spend your life changing things that have no real role.

 

Good luck anyway and have a Happy Christmas.

 

Iain

 

Iain,

 

Thank you so much for your interest and your very detailed critique of my signalling intentions.  I can't contradict anything you say because neither am I a signalling professional.  However, all I would say is that when I built my previous layout, "Hawthorn Town", I added Ratio chord operated semaphore signals which absolutely transformed the layout in terms of appearance and operational interest, for me anyway.  I was minded to do the same on "Deneside" and have built a couple of Ratio semaphores (MSE stuff being beyond my skill set) but they are a pain to assemble (in comparison to the Train-tech signals) and, whilst I considered different types of operating the semaphores, the simplicity of wiring and switching the Train-tech colour lights appealed greatly.  Also, I rather quite like the look of the feathers.  In terms of cost, the two aspect signals range in price from £10 to £20 each, the two head platform end signals are £15 each, effectively £7.50 a signal.  I intend using small toggle switches sourced from the internet at about 85 pence each, albeit feathered signals need two switches.  All in all, I think the total installation will be affordable and will add considerable operating interest for me.

I suppose this topic falls into whether I am making "a model railway" or a "model of a railway".  I am not modelling an actual place and I have tried to cram in as much relevant operating interest as possible, so not "a model of a railway".

Thank you again for your post.  It did give me pause for thought which is always a good thing.

 

Best Regards,

Brian.

[Brian D]

Brian,, the distant signal for leaving Horden (just before the trains crossed the Castle Eden Dene viaduct) was a colour light signal. You could always see it from the over bridge at Horden...until a Q6 covered it in smoke pounding towards West Hartlepool on a set of fulls.

Baz

 

That is really good to know that Q6s and colour light signals "mingled" on the Durham coast line.  Don't suppose you have any pics or reference thereto to share? 

Regards,

Brian.

[Brian D]

Can I just throw the following into the ring having just read it in another thread on here? Until the 1970's the signals outside terminal stations controlling routes towards any buffer stops would have had a green proceed aspect and, even in a 3 or 4 aspect signalled area, said signal was most likely to have been limited to a two aspect red/green display.

 

Grouping arrival and departure (direction) levers together was I believe quite normal. The lever numbering would also depend on whether the signaller had his front or back to the tracks/signals (and which side of the line the box was on). Low lever numbers would generally be allocated to movements towards (and away from) the box originating from the signaller's left with the high lever numbers reserved for moves from the other direction.

 

Thanks for that Ray.  I might actually be doing something half right by the sound of it.

Thanks again for your interest in my ramblings.

 

Regards,

Brian.

[Brian D]

Brian,

 

Not wishing to interfere, I have had a quick look at what I think is the last Deneside layout plan and tried to do a MINIMAL signal plan.  There can be endless arguments about this, and Ray is quite right to point out there are various time considerations about what is "right".  I suggest you apply rule 1 and do what seems and looks right to you.  You have done extremely well doing that so far!!!

 

As far as I can see you have 4 passenger platforms, a goods arrival/departure line and a loco yard that need integrating into any plan.  The main lines labelled M1 and M2 will be dual direction is some cases.  I am not sure what circumstances would dictate when.  There are 2 significant crossovers I have labelled A and B.  Incoming trains for platforms 3 and 4 have to go over this facing crossover.  The Home signal can protect that and set routes.  I have shown 4 JI on the mast the one at 10 o'clock (position1) is for platform 1, Platform 2 doesn't need one (straight ahead) P3 id JI 4 (2 o'clock), P4 JI 5 and the yard (goods arrival) is 6 (4 o'clock).  You can get this made up by CRS if you want to - or good luck doing it yourself!

 

None of the platform starters need anything extra since everything either has access to M2 directly (P3 and P4) or will use crossover B to get to it.

 

The loco shed needs a signal protecting the main line - but that could be a ground signal - it looks like a P on it's side on my diagram.  I am unsure where we go from there.  How do you send locos to P3/P4? You may either put them across crossover B or send them round to crossover A.  If at B you might think of a ground signal for that movement, but you would also have to clear that signal every time a train leaves P1/P2 else the driver would have a heart attack.

 

The goods departure needs a signal too - but it could be a ground signal with a yellow light which means it is passable into the head shunt all the time, and will clear to white for a departure to the main line.

 

Finally the colliery needs a simple signal to protect the main line.

 

There you are 6 main signals, and only one of them complicated, and 2 or 3 ground signals.  You could just ignore the complications on the Home signal and just have a single feather meaning go to line M2.  Most signalling schemes relied on the drivers knowing what was expected of them, and signals (including model ones) are expensive to buy and maintain.

 

Edit: there was supposed to be a photo of a diagram here

 

Thanks again for this very detailed post and I appreciate the time you have taken to redesign my as yet unfinished signalling scheme.  Again, pause for thought and I will have a look at your proposal.  However, I fear our posts have crossed so therefore please refer to my reply to your first post which may address some of the points you have raised herein.

 

Regards,

Brian.

 

PS  The photo of the diagram was attached, thank you.

PPS.  The Train-tech feather signals are "limited" as regards your 4J1 suggestion and looking at the way the signal LEDs are made would be frankly impossible.  Cheap and cheerful I'm afraid is the order of the day but please see my earlier remarks.  Thanks yet again for the time you have spent on this matter.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Brian D