Scottish Loco Poll

[Hammer]

 

If you are not going to kit build the 0-4-4 tank you are probably not going to kitbuild the non-corridor stock that goes with it?

- or the buildings which it operated past.

 

 

I can afford to muck up quite a lot of plastikard and wills sheets in order to do suitable buildings. I can't afford to muck up a single £200 kit in order to provide suitable locos.

[Russ (mines a pint)]

I can afford to muck up quite a lot of plastikard and wills sheets in order to do suitable buildings. I can't afford to muck up a single £200 kit in order to provide suitable locos.

That was half the point- I'd love some non-corridor thompsons but they are £50 per kit and look far more difficult than even a loco!

[Caledonian]

I think Bob has summed it up pretty well. As I said when Hornby replied, we've made an acknowledged start. We have identified two locomotives which tick all of Bachmann's boxes, and perhaps a third as well. I haven't re-analysed the figures for the Jumbo/812 since the responses crept up to 97, but even if the Jumbo comes out ahead, the 812 might be better on the grounds that a preserved example exists.

 

As to where we go from here, having made that start; I'm a researcher and a wordsmith. I can happily produce all sorts of copy for individuals, organisations and magazines, but it would help immensely if others could actually get in amongst the clubs and organisations, talk to people, provide me with contact information and generally spread the word outside this forum - write your own letters to magazines and post on other forums.

 

I have to disagree with Russ on the stock and sceneray to go with the locos. The ones we've picked survived to the end of steam in Scotland and can be run with what's already available. Scottish buildings would be great, but we've seen how easy it is for Hornby and Bachmann to produce them quickly and cheaply. It aint the same as a locomotive. If either of them produce a couple of Scottish locos, turning out an NBR station pack isn't going to cause them any grief.

 

And yes, if S&DJR locos will sell, there's no way that the right Caley one won't

[Bob Reid]

Both of you Russ and Hammer, have lost me (not particularly difficult).....

 

Are you saying that there's little point in progressing this if you (a) can't or are not prepared to build a kit and ( there's no stock to run with them and both of these need to be addressed?

 

I didn't pick up on any of that from either the Hornby or Bachmann replies. What I'm suggesting is how we collectivey progress the administration of all this, in particular using the Bachmannn reply as the template for what all needs done as a minimum to move it forward. At the moment beyond what Stuart has kindly done on our behalf, it's nothing more than a wish list and will remain that way unless these points are addressed.

 

Adding new coaches into the equation at this stage would I'd suggest only reduce the chance of getting anything done, and are clearly (in the case of non-corridor ex LMS & LNER stock) an issue affecting all the current RTR locomotives, not specifically the "Scottish" ones we have selected. Apart from that there are as Stuart suggests already some suitable stock for use with the locomotives chosen.

 

For the next year it could only be a matter of making contacts and approaching the right people in the societies and organisations that might be interested in the production of a Scottish loco, and fleshing out with real figures what potential support there is - it's likely to be only a raising of awareness, but if we sit back and do nothing, adding too many if's and but's in, we will surely end up with just that - nothing.

[coachmann]

When I responded earlier I was critisised for being blunt. I really wanted to inject a touch of reality. If a coach kit is £50.00, people are not going to learn to built one if they won't risk their money b*lloxing it up. But expecting manufacturers/societies/shops to risk their money on a RTR loco is alright?

 

The perception in the trade is the plastic RTR guys want everything on a plate, and this would almost certainly manifest itself if ever a RTR J36 or whatever were produced. First the armchair rivet-counters would weight in, then the people who consider RTR locos should be priced to suit them.

 

It goes without saying Hornby and Bachmann will consider every aspect of a loco before commiting it to the short-list. Realisticallly, a NBR 0-6-0 is no good to someone wanting a Caley 0-6-0 and the market is halved already! A more realistic proposition, maybe, is something that has the wow-factor of the S&DJR 2-8-0....... The Dunalastair V Pickersgill 4-4-0 built between 1916 and 1922 and lasted till 1962. Many people may have seen them in operation on railway videos.

 

I could at least pretent one was working on my layout in Yorkshire heading a railtour (which I would not do with an 0-6-0). For RTR manufacturers it offers Caley blue, LMS red, LMS lined black, BR early and late totems.

 

If it sells well, then the manufacturer will be encouraged to follow it with a Caley tank or good engine. It's a start.

 

I'm not trying to sway things one way or the other. I'm simply looking at it from a risk point of view.

 

Larry

[Guest Max Stafford]

Stuart, Bob, I'd like to offer my services in pursuit of our project in whatever way possible. If we don't get something produced out of this effort, it shan't be for the want of trying, and as I've been one of the most vocal, I feel it's only right some of that hot air is converted into action.

 

Dave.

['CHARD]

I think we've moved this on a bit further than that in fairness, Larry. The contributors to the thread who are supporting the initiative have stated their preference for opening their collective wallets for bread and butter signature loco types, for reasons explored exhaustively above. One of the Big Two has publicly expressed its position on the issue of any suggested prototype, with very useful action points highlighted, and key individuals like Stuart are now shaping the next phase of the campaign.

 

In my view, there are now individual and group actions to be progressed, and rehearsing what happens after such a model were released (too expensive, insufficient rivets etc) is a topic for another thread, albeit a futile one to a large extent - we can be assured that the proposers will provide the would-be RTR manufacturer with sufficient assistance that they don't get it howlingly wrong.

 

EDIT: cross-post - you psychic, Dave?

[Jamie]

When I responded earlier I was critisised for being blunt.

 

Larry

No, Larry, if you are referring to my response, you weren't. I merely asked for your reasoning.

 

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Generally, I think discussion of why the general modelling public won't build kits (do I need to dig out that misshapen lump of whitemetal to upload a pic?) is largely irrelevant, as they neither read RMWeb nor will be swayed by those claiming a modelling high-ground. There was a perfectly valid, fairly modern kit for the S&D(JR) 2-8-0...

 

Similarly, discussion of coaches - nothing but muddying the water. We don't have a basic set of Staniers RtR, with the missing CK at a very minimum, so no-one will buy a LMS liveried Duchess? Aye right enough.

 

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Please, let's not fall into ever decreasing circles on this thread just as things were beginning to move forward, let's maybe go back to Bob's post of last night. I'll be willing to do donkey work, but don't know my elbow from Montparnasse when it comes to locomotives.

 

 

 

How did we ScR/NER types get a Clayton, after all?

[Western Scottish]

I think Bob makes very good sense. The next stage would be to address all the points in Dennis Lovetts letter. My view is we should then approach SRPS or Strathspey Line (good point about the need for funds to extend the line). However I would caution against a free for all writting letters approach. What we need to do is build up the case and approach someone on the commercial side of these organisations. They must have someone in charge of marketing and promotions. That would be the person to approach. Unfortunately I am not a member of either of these organisations, although I'd certainly join! I've forgotten about the Caledonian Railway at Brechin. They too may be interested.

 

Why go through these societies.

 

They are probably already dealing with the sums of money we are talking about. The SRPS frequently charters trains and I would have thought that re-boilering a locomotive is very expensive. So dealing with the sums of money necessary to commission a model should not be as daunting as say for one of our very good model shops.

 

They are large organisations that will have the commercial acumen to bring this project to completion. Similarly if they say no we should perhaps reconsider the viability of what we want.

 

They have a large membership. As a few people have pointed out we need to stretch beyond the membership of RMWeb. I don't know how many members the SRPS have, but I reckon its pretty substantial. Canvassing them to see how many would buy a model might help bulk up our case.

 

Not excluding anyone at the moment. It may be we have a McKernow models in our midst who will take up the challenge. But looking at the scale of funds necessary (£50-£100k?)I think the bigger organisations have a better chance.

[Caledonian]

On the subject of ever decreasing circles, can we please keep this positive. We know that its going to be difficult - no pessimists need apply - but we have now entered into what looks like a constructive dialogue with Bachmann. We may or may not be able to persuade them; that remains to be seen, but we have to try.

 

Over the past many weeks we have identified locomotives that are needed for Scottish layouts and, just as importantly, that also fit the criteria outlined by Dennis Lovett. We've therefore moved beyond the indulgent wish list stage and the task which we currently face is trying to find a way of demonstrating that there will be a viable demand for these distinctive locomotives.

 

Personally I think we should be turning the usual wish list argument on its head and asking the simple question, if an RTR 00 scale J36 and/or a 439 was available would you buy one? I think it would be very difficult to find a Scottish modeller who wouldn't, but we have to be able to demonstrate that.

 

I agree that the SRPS is going to be a good starting point and I'll give some thought to drafting a suitable letter; in the meantime can somebody come up with a named contact it should be sent to

[Jamie]

Could the approach be, to contact the membership/general secretary of these organisations, and ask for relevant membership data - the aim being to assess market size which appears to be the biggest query of Mr Lovett. Sort of describing the purpose of the letter and asking broad questions about membership numbers, degree of railway modelling interest, possibly more.

 

Precise detail is perhaps not that important, but some scale of the market is.

 

And remember, this is still only reaching and assessing a subset of the broader market.

 

I'd considered alternative approaches of perhaps assembling and presenting a 'package' of preliminary research work, drawing sources, photographic references, possibly also measurements and drawings made of any preserved examples, but consider that without the market assessment it would be largely pointless.

 

Perhaps Hornby will be better placed to gauge the Scottish 4mm market, using the sales figures of the recent Polmadie-special Black 5 45458 (IIRC).

[Guest Max Stafford]

Do we have any indication of the figures for this model, Jamie?

 

Dave.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Could the approach be, to contact the membership/general secretary of these organisations, and ask for relevant membership data - the aim being to assess market size which appears to be the biggest query of Mr Lovett. Sort of describing the purpose of the letter and asking broad questions about membership numbers, degree of railway modelling interest, possibly more.

 

Precise detail is perhaps not that important, but some scale of the market is.

 

And remember, this is still only reaching and assessing a subset of the broader market.

 

I'd considered alternative approaches of perhaps assembling and presenting a 'package' of preliminary research work, drawing sources, photographic references, possibly also measurements and drawings made of any preserved examples, but consider that without the market assessment it would be largely pointless.

 

Perhaps Hornby will be better placed to gauge the Scottish 4mm market, using the sales figures of the recent Polmadie-special Black 5 45458 (IIRC).

 

Put yourselves in Bachmann's or Hornby's shoes. Their product plans for 2011 and possibly 2012 are probably already fixed. They have a planned number of new steam outline introductions per year. This is probably constrained by their own ability or the Chinese manufacturers ability to research and design a number of models each year. They are also busy producing livery variations of existing models, which are happily hoovered up by the UK collector/modeller.

 

You already know the sales volume that Bachmann (and probably Hornby) consider as viable, 5,000 initially and 9,000 overall. Unless all the sales go through one outlet, e.g. NRM or Murphys, they may have in mind a purchase volume commitment from a retailer/organisation that would get the ball rolling. Clearly, the balance of sales would have to come from the usual outlets but you would have a figure that you could review and discuss with anyone you approach to "underwrite" the production of the chosen model.

 

Do you already have an indication of the margins available to the retailer? It's possible that as sole outlet, NRM were able to negociate price/margin to match their museum shop customer profile. I expect that, with City of Truro in particular, they also rely on sales to a number of "casual" modellers and enthusiasts through the museum shop. Obviously, they have a high volume of visitors to support this.

 

Like Larry, I hope that these suggestions will inject a sense of reality into the project. If you are going to involve yourselves in promoting a commercial undertaking, then you really need as much information as possible. I would suggest a further approach to Bachmann for more information, now that you have established a dialogue. You need to understand all the financial criteria, as well as the modelling ones, so that you are well informed ahead of any approaches to potential retailers that you make.

 

Good luck.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Further to Jamie's comment about the Scottish 5mt, a quick glance at the pages of some of the biggest players in RTR retail shows that both 45458 and the Clans are still selling at mainstream prices without any additional stimulus. Some are already taking pre-orders for another run of the Clans. This would perhaps indicate a steady market for items with a Scottish connection although it's beyond question that the equation has more to it than the success of two broadly national classes.

 

Dave.

[Caledonian]

Its something I've found encouraging for some time; although declining to dip their toe in the water far enough to actually produce a model, Hornby do seem aware that they need to do something for their Scottish customers as witnessed not only by 45458 and the Clans, but the WPR liveried Austerity. The impression I get is that they know there could be a market, but don't know what to do about it, so hopefully this campaign will help them to focus on something useful and with only 8 out of 98 (to date) casting a vote for one, the fabled Dunalastair clearly isn't firing the imagination

[Russ (mines a pint)]

Both of you Russ and Hammer, have lost me (not particularly difficult).....

 

Are you saying that there's little point in progressing this if you (a) can't or are not prepared to build a kit and ( there's no stock to run with them and both of these need to be addressed?

 

Not really not from my own point of view in anycase, I was just postulating on how what I would call a 'mainstream' modeller rather than one who wants to base a project on one of these locos. We would all buy one, possibly more than one- but a bigger and more widespread appeal would increase the chances, and the chances of further relaeses beyond that.

 

I was in no way trying to be negative, just trying to postulate how to get a greater number of people interested, beyond the initial locomotives to help the chances?

[Barry Rhys]

The Dunalastair V Pickersgill 4-4-0 built between 1916 and 1922 and lasted till 1962. Many people may have seen them in operation on railway videos.

 

 

....and with only 8 out of 98 (to date) casting a vote for one, the fabled Dunalastair clearly isn't firing the imagination

 

Hi Stuart (and other contributors to this thread),

 

Just to clear up a possible misunderstanding, the "Dunalastair V Pickersgill 4-4-0" referred to by Coach is in fact the "Caledonian Pickersgill 4-4-0" loco voted on in the poll. Actually the real Dunalastair "family" (four classes generally known as Dunalastairs I - IV) were all built by McIntosh between 1896 and 1910, but three further classes of 4-4-0 subsequently built by Pickersgill between 1916 and 1922 are commonly referred to as Dunalastair V's.

 

It would be a little unhelpful of me to suggest now - particularly since I've not contributed anything earlier - that maybe the 22 votes for the Pickersgill 4-4-0 and the 8 votes for the "Dunalastair" 4-4-0 probably reflect a "group" vote for a Caley 4-4-0 type, particularly since the North British "Glen" and "Scott" 4-4-0 votes quite possibly similarly reflect a common desire for an NB 4-4-0 type (and likewise the Caledonian Jumbo and 812 Classes for a Caley 0-6-0!), but hopefully at least people may see that there is not such a wide 'fragmentation' of wishes across widely differing types, which may be thought to be the case at a quick glance at the poll results.

 

This isn't meant to question any of your points Stuart, just to clear up a possible point of confusion. As a Caley modeller, I appreciate that you and others here are actually trying to do something instead of simply talking about it.

 

Neil

[Caledonian]

Thanks for the clarification as to which one Larry was actually talking about; the eagle eyed will have noticed that we have now had 100 responses, producing a 59% (call it 60%) vote of the 439 tank and just over 50% for the J36.

 

The Jumbo is clearly preferred to the 812 but I still haven't analysed the voting to see if the combined vote (less duplicates) exceeds the 60% for the 439. In practical terms however I suspect that while the Jumbo is the more popular of the two, an 812 might be the more attractive option for a manufacturer given the existence of a preserved one and that brings me back to what I think should be the central question addressed to the wider modelling world.

 

We have identified the 439, J36 and 812 as the locomotives most likely to succeed, on all the grounds of longevity, widespread usage, liveries and general usefulness - allied to the crucial advantage of having real live examples of each to examine.

 

Now, rather than get distracted by which might or might not be the most popular (far less which of the others could be worth doing), we need to focus on obtaining a straight answer to the question; if these locos was available would you buy them

?

 

So how do we ask this as widely as possible?

 

I have a couple of ideas but I'd value your input.

[coachmann]

if these locos was available would you buy them? So how do we ask this as widely as possible?

Write a short article about RMweb and this thread (have a word with Andy) and submit it together with good photos of your 3 choices to magazines of choice. Give a history of said locos and their workings. BRM and Hornby Magazine, for example, seeing as both are more steam orientated and you need to reach this readership. Also ask the editor if he would run a poll alongside your article. Anything is worth a try when you need 5000 to 9000 sales for your model and the whole thing might develop.

 

LG

[Invicta]

Interesting comment on MREMag this morning from Brian McDermott, thanking 'all those who supported the proposal that John Baxter (Chairman, S&DRHT) and I put together back in 2008'- which suggests that the S&D Trust must have done some work to drum up support for the 2-8-0. Might it be worth talking to them to get some insight on what they did, and trying to get the SRPS on-side in a similar manner?

[great northern]

Interesting comment on MREMag this morning from Brian McDermott, thanking 'all those who supported the proposal that John Baxter (Chairman, S&DRHT) and I put together back in 2008'- which suggests that the S&D Trust must have done some work to drum up support for the 2-8-0. Might it be worth talking to them to get some insight on what they did, and trying to get the SRPS on-side in a similar manner?

 

Yes, I noticed that too. It seems clear that some people have been working quietly behind the scenes and presenting very detailed and well argued cases for particular things. That has been done in this thread too, but as you have all identified, unfortunately you need to do yet more to persuade Bachmann that what you suggest is viable. You have I think significantly assisted all of us who are trying to put together strong cases for particular prototypes, as the reply from Dennis Lovett certainly spells out in very interesting detail what the manufacturers are looking for.

 

There are as I see it two problems. The first is that you are asking for run of the mill locos, and I don't think that the manufacturers are yet totally convinced that such things are worth the risk. The door is now ajar though, as some are being announced, and hopefully sales will prove that the long lived workhorse of the steam railway makes economic sense. Keep working on it guys, and I think in the medium term you may succeed.

 

The other problem is competition. British Railways always had a wonderful diversity, and so there are bound to be many pressure groups advancing the cause of their own particular interest. Clearly, not all are going to succeed, at least in the foreseeable future. Focussing on the unique features and appeal of Scottish railways seems to me to be the way forward here, and if you can get other groups to throw their weight behind your arguments so much the better.It will be getting the ball rolling which will be really hard, but our Southern friends have shown us what can happen when you get some momentum going. Don't get downhearted - keep the pressure on, but in a reasoned and courteous way as most of you are doing, and you may eventually get what you want. One thing is for sure. As Bachmann and Hornby between them tend to announce no more than four or five new steam locos a year, we aren't all going to get what we want. And it is worth reiterating yet again, particularly in the light of Bachmann's reply, that sure as hell no-one is going to get it just by shouting loudly for it!.

[Horsetan]

.....there is 1 maybe 2 loco(s) missing, the Jones Goods and possibly 123....

 

The Jones Goods 4-6-0s would be a significant omission from a Scottish wishlist. I wonder if no. 103 is now too old to be steamed again.....

[ScRSG]

Further to Jamie's comment about the Scottish 5mt, a quick glance at the pages of some of the biggest players in RTR retail shows that both 45458 and the Clans are still selling at mainstream prices without any additional stimulus. Some are already taking pre-orders for another run of the Clans. This would perhaps indicate a steady market for items with a Scottish connection although it's beyond question that the equation has more to it than the success of two broadly national classes.

 

Dave.

 

You have to be careful here as to the demand for any loco, at the model shop in Glasgow which I have a connection to, sales of the original batch of Clans, both early and late only reached around the fifty mark, and we were not embarrassed by lots of requests when out of stock. The Polmadie Black 5 did not sell in large numbers and indeed a good few are still in stock! We have also not had one single order for the new clan or indeed any orders as yet for the new Scottish A3 (Brown Jack). The prices for these are competitive so not all are going to the "box shifters".

 

I do find it difficult to see where the need for 5,000 (going on to 9,000) comes from. The NRM did not, i suspect, get 5,000 prototype Deltics or the same number of Truro's. But both of these appeared to be successful for the museum and, of course, Bachmann.

 

Yes, we should get Societies involved and maybe this is the way forward but I don't think you could ask a small number of Scottish retailers (2 or 3?) to commit to that level. (See comments above re quantities sold of Clans and Balack 5s).

 

The Caledonian Society some time ago sent round a circular on the subject of getting a Caley engine produced, what happened to that does anyone know.

[Legend]

A quick persusal of SRPS website , which has their accounts on it, shows membership level for 2009 as 1344. I am surprised as itis relatively low. I had thought it would be 10000+. I agree with what has been said about getting some big guns involved- the SRPS is the obvious one as it has both 439 and J36. Could be they need to raise funds . Maybe some sort of canvassing at Bo'ness would yield a better indication of numbers.

 

From the same website, Market Development Manager is Mr John Mayes.

 

The only thing I would say is I'm struck by the fact that they bought an actual 37/4 for £19,800. So financing a model is still going to be a big event for them

 

How about the Glasgow Museum of Transport. Its shutting down in April and the whole thing moves to new premises which I think opens in 2011 or maybe 2012. I know none of the most likely subjects are preserved there - but it might be worth a whirl. Something Scottish could still be a seller for them- with a possible tie into model shops?

[Bernard Lamb]

The Jones Goods 4-6-0s would be a significant omission from a Scottish wishlist. I wonder if no. 103 is now too old to be steamed again.....

Agreed. But what has that to do with the price of fish?

This topic is not a about a wishlist but more of a pragmatic approach to get an RTR loco manufactured. As such I and I am sure several others, have set aside any personal wishes and voted for what we think is a viable model and for which a good case can be presented.

In the case of 103 I think the boiler would almost certainly not meet the current standards.

Bernard