HSTs - which TOPS Class?

[leopardml2341]

If they were multiple units would they not have received numbers in the 60xxx series like all the other DEMU's / Pullman units.....................?

Probably, but they aren't multiple units because they can't be coupled together and driven from one cab. They are (were) fixed trainsets.

 

Blue Pullman units were again fixed trainsets and not intended to be multiple units. I say 'intended' because of course latterly the ex Midland sets were fitted for MU working when running on BR(W) region. Also they were Pre TOPS, though I understand that they would have been class 251 and the 60xxx numbers do link them to DE self propelled stock - all DE (MU) s were (are) numbered in the 2xx Tops class series, right up to the voyagers etc

 

And as I said in an earlier post, that wouldn't necessarily mean that the 60xxx numbered vehicles would be acknowledged as class 60s......... here we go around again :-)

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Probably going round in circles here, but some references give:

 

Class 250 = 6-car Blue Pullman

Class 251 = 8-car Blue Pullman

Class 252 = Prototype 7-car HST

Class 253 = 7-car HST (WR)

Class 254 = 8-car HST (ER/ScR)

[45125]

Probably, but they aren't multiple units because they can't be coupled together and driven from one cab. They are (were) fixed trainsets.

 

Blue Pullman units were again fixed trainsets and not intended to be multiple units. I say 'intended' because of course latterly the ex Midland sets were fitted for MU working when running on BR(W) region. Also they were Pre TOPS, though I understand that they would have been class 251 and the 60xxx numbers do link them to DE self propelled stock - all DE (MU) s were (are) numbered in the 2xx Tops class series, right up to the voyagers etc

 

And as I said in an earlier post, that wouldn't necessarily mean that the 60xxx numbered vehicles would be acknowledged as class 60s......... here we go around again :-

 

 

 

The power cars could operate in multiple, under the nose end a 36 way jumper socket was fitted, most of these were removed around 1980. Some of these sockets did get used when moving power cars from Crewe to Derby.

 

The FGW  power cars when first fitted with the MTUs did not have the new relays, this was done as a retro fit, the two power cars fitted with the new electronics were renumbered but reverted to the old numbers shortly after delivery to FGW.

 

ECML power cars were renumbered  to avoid confusion for depot staff because of the different oil and coolant that the MTUS used compared to the Paxmans.

 

 

What ever you want to call them the vast majority who work on them call them power cars, TOPS and various other technical things call them class 43. On Padsnet there is even a reference to class 43/9.........

[leopardml2341]

45125 - please be kind to edit your post to quote only 'wot I said' without 'wot u added' :-)

 

Thanks,

 

Andy

[Guest 43300]

But this thread is about TOPS classes.................

 

It started like that but has branched out into wider discussion. I posted some things which I thought might be helpful / of interest - clearly a waste of time as the anal nit-picking responses about terminology (rather than about the actual subject) has shown. I won't bother in future...

[Downendian]

Getting into pedant mode, I think that your idea of the fixed sets 'rapidly' breaking down 'within a few weeks' is inaccurate to some extent. Yes there were some power car swaps and some weeks seemed to be worse than others, but looking at my notes of the period; even as late as Nov/Dec 1977 there were a majority of sets with the same "set" numbered power car at both ends.

 

Ones that I saw during Nov/Dec 77 were 253002/4/6/8/9/13/14/16/18/22/26/27

 

 

I have quite a long list of complete HST formations 1976/7 on arrival on the WR. It's posted on an old version of RMweb around 2009. I will try and find it but google isn't locating it. They certainly weren't fixed formations as you will see when I get the data here which proves my point. There was a lot of movement of the coaching stock from even quite an early date, and certainly were very mixed by late 1977.

Neil

[Downendian]

Just to prove the point a list of coaching stock formations August-November 1976 taken from my notes of the time, sorry no precise dates.

Sorry omitted the power cars but look at the jumbling quite early on. Don't confuse paired power cars with what was between them!

 

42011+42010+40003+42009+40014+41008+41007 (two TRBs!)

42008+42007+42006+42042+40002+41006+41005

42014+42013+42012+42049+40004+41010+41009 (confirmed on another day too)

43015+41015+41016+40007+42021+42046+42022+42023+43014

41015+41016+40007+42021+42046+42022+42023 (confirmed twice)

41025+41026+41030+42036+42043+42038+42052 (a real mix!!)

42017+42016+40005+42015+40015+41012+41011 (two TRBs again, so no fluke above)

Same set above sighted on a different day - so confirmation then two TRBs.

42030+41033+42031+42044+41021+41020+40004

42026+42025+42024+42048+40008+41029+41017

41013+42019+42018+42051+40006+42020+42032

43021+41021+41022+41033+40004+42030+42044+42031+43020

42005+42004+40001+42003+40011+41004+41003

42029+42028+42040+42027+40009+41020+41019

43019+41020+40009+42027+42040+42028+42029+41019+43018

43027+41007+41031+40017+42009+40003+42010+42011+43026

42005+42004+40001+42003+40011+41004+41003

 

43019-41020-40009-42027-42040-42028-42029-41019-43018

43027-41007-41031-40017-42009-40003-42010-42011-43026

41023-41028-40013-42033-42058-42053-42057

41017-41016-40007-42021-42046-42022-42041

42014-42013-42012-42049-40004-41010-41009

42029-42028-42040-42027-40009-41020-41019

43023-41015-41016-40007-42021-42046-42022-42023-43xxx

41011-41012-40015-42039-40005-42016-42017

42030-41033-42031-42044-41021-41020-40004

42026-42025-42024-42048-40008-41029-41017

41013-42019-42018-42051-40006-42020-42032

43021-41021-41022-41033-40004-42030-42044-42031-43020

42005-42004-40001-42003-40011-41004-41003

41015-41016-40007-42021-42046-42022-42023

42011-42010-40003-42009-40014-41008-41007

42008-42007-42006-42042-40002-41006-41005

43015-41015-41016-40007-42021-42046-42022-42023-43014

41025-41026-41030-42036-42043-42038-42052

42017-42016-40005-42015-40015-41012-41011

 

Original thread

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34464&sid=5d241cbcfe929a42b61386fe419a5744&start=25

 

Neil

[kenw]

Have you never come across the concept of carriages having numbers as well as locos?

 

Yes, and if you read my replies that's what I was saying, that they're not class numbers, in response to what YOU said!

 

QUOTE "Talking of TOPS classes" and then going directly on to list the various types by vehicle numbers,

giving the impression YOU were listing them as what YOU said, TOPS classes.

 

No anal nit-picking here, was just replying to what you'd said which gave the impression you were listing them as classes.

 

END OF

[Wheatley]

Given that Leopard answered the question in post 11, this has to be one of the most utterly pointless arguments I've seen on here for a while. It's no wonder non-enthusiasts think we're all a bit odd.

[jonny777]

Just to prove the point a list of coaching stock formations August-November 1976 taken from my notes of the time, sorry no precise dates.

Sorry omitted the power cars but look at the jumbling quite early on. Don't confuse paired power cars with what was between them!

 

42011+42010+40003+42009+40014+41008+41007 (two TRBs!)

42008+42007+42006+42042+40002+41006+41005

42014+42013+42012+42049+40004+41010+41009 (confirmed on another day too)

43015+41015+41016+40007+42021+42046+42022+42023+43014

41015+41016+40007+42021+42046+42022+42023 (confirmed twice)

41025+41026+41030+42036+42043+42038+42052 (a real mix!!)

42017+42016+40005+42015+40015+41012+41011 (two TRBs again, so no fluke above)

Same set above sighted on a different day - so confirmation then two TRBs.

42030+41033+42031+42044+41021+41020+40004

42026+42025+42024+42048+40008+41029+41017

41013+42019+42018+42051+40006+42020+42032

43021+41021+41022+41033+40004+42030+42044+42031+43020

42005+42004+40001+42003+40011+41004+41003

42029+42028+42040+42027+40009+41020+41019

43019+41020+40009+42027+42040+42028+42029+41019+43018

43027+41007+41031+40017+42009+40003+42010+42011+43026

42005+42004+40001+42003+40011+41004+41003

 

43019-41020-40009-42027-42040-42028-42029-41019-43018

43027-41007-41031-40017-42009-40003-42010-42011-43026

41023-41028-40013-42033-42058-42053-42057

41017-41016-40007-42021-42046-42022-42041

42014-42013-42012-42049-40004-41010-41009

42029-42028-42040-42027-40009-41020-41019

43023-41015-41016-40007-42021-42046-42022-42023-43xxx

41011-41012-40015-42039-40005-42016-42017

42030-41033-42031-42044-41021-41020-40004

42026-42025-42024-42048-40008-41029-41017

41013-42019-42018-42051-40006-42020-42032

43021-41021-41022-41033-40004-42030-42044-42031-43020

42005-42004-40001-42003-40011-41004-41003

41015-41016-40007-42021-42046-42022-42023

42011-42010-40003-42009-40014-41008-41007

42008-42007-42006-42042-40002-41006-41005

43015-41015-41016-40007-42021-42046-42022-42023-43014

41025-41026-41030-42036-42043-42038-42052

42017-42016-40005-42015-40015-41012-41011

 

Original thread

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34464&sid=5d241cbcfe929a42b61386fe419a5744&start=25

 

Neil

 

Thanks Neil.

 

I had forgotten the original thread, to which I see that I contributed a small amount of info, but I wish that I had taken note of Mk3 numbers at least at Reading where I could have recorded them all. At Twyford and Taplow that would have been impossible anyway.

 

I am amazed that the formations were changed so quickly and apologise for my pedantic assertions from a position of ignorance. I assumed that the sets would mainly stay as introduced and just the power cars would be swapped as required.

 

It illustrates the point; never assume anything where the railways are concerned. 100% historical evidence is needed to back up an assertion.

[leopardml2341]

Looking at my photo's - First Great Western and Cross Country concur.

 

 

So - in terms of the original question, why do folk keep calling them "Class 43" - because (irrespective of whether anyone regards them a loco, a driving vehicle, or an MU vehicle) that's what they are.

 

(And before somebody says "It doesn't make sense" - welcome to TOPS. Try wagons, then you'll really see what doesn't make sense!)

 

 

Thanks everyone - that clears it up then  - Class 43 they are. At least according to TOPS.

 

I don't have the luxury of observing one (of the few) that pass through my local station (Willington) as:

 

a) They are travelling too quickly

B) they run at odd times.

 

Rgds,

 

 

Given that Leopard answered the question in post 11, this has to be one of the most utterly pointless arguments I've seen on here for a while. It's no wonder non-enthusiasts think we're all a bit odd.

 

Well Said Sir, though it was actually post 44 as a result of pic posted in 43 - Glorious NSE, was that coincidence or intentional?

 

It started like that but has branched out into wider discussion. I posted some things which I thought might be helpful / of interest - clearly a waste of time as the anal nit-picking responses about terminology (rather than about the actual subject) has shown. I won't bother in future...

 

43300, a more positive approach might be to consider starting a new discussion thread about HST trailer cars and consists as an alternative to 'wasting your time' {sic}?

 

In fact Neil (aka Downendian) gives a link pointer in his post 82 above.

 

Rgds Everyone,

[Guest 43300]

Yes, and if you read my replies that's what I was saying, that they're not class numbers, in response to what YOU said!

 

QUOTE "Talking of TOPS classes" and then going directly on to list the various types by vehicle numbers,

giving the impression YOU were listing them as what YOU said, TOPS classes.

 

No anal nit-picking here, was just replying to what you'd said which gave the impression you were listing them as classes.

 

END OF

 

OK Mr anal - perhaps I should have written "talking of numbers registered on TOPS (which are not however TOPS classes as HST trailers have an obscure 4-character identifier to avoid confusion with locomotives):"

 

That better?

['CHARD]

OK Mr anal 

 

Wrong website for that Hollywood blockbuster, I'm afraid.

[leopardml2341]

Yes, and if you read my replies that's what I was saying, that they're not class numbers, in response to what YOU said!

 

QUOTE "Talking of TOPS classes" and then going directly on to list the various types by vehicle numbers,

giving the impression YOU were listing them as what YOU said, TOPS classes.

 

No anal nit-picking here, was just replying to what you'd said which gave the impression you were listing them as classes.

 

END OF

 

 

OK Mr anal - perhaps I should have written "talking of numbers registered on TOPS (which are not however TOPS classes as HST trailers have an obscure 4-character identifier to avoid confusion with locomotives):"

 

That better?

 

Crikey !

 

I wish I'd never asked.

 

Sad that the topic has degenerated to this.

 

Perhaps both of you will respect the original query and consider letting me have the last word and thus bring to an end this 'discussion'.

 

Rgds,

[leopardml2341]

Wrong website for that Hollywood blockbuster, I'm afraid.

'CHARD - behave......

Oh,  and never lend me any DVDs.

[HillsideDepot]

Not directly related to the original question, but proving that HSTs don't always run as complete sets, last nights 1B94 2245 Paddington - Swansea (via Temple Meads) got trapped in flood waters at Corsham. I have seen it reported that it came to a stand with the water up to headlight level! It seems that the train was reversed out of the flood, and in order to get the 90 passengers and crew to a safe point to evacuate them the rear power car and adjoining TGS were uncoupled and used to convey everyone to safety.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29273833 shows the remaining part of the train.

 

Given the intensity of the lightning and rain (we had a months worth in a few hours) last night it couldn't have been fun for the staff checking the train over and performing the uncoupling and the safe evacuation. Well done them!

[jonny777]

Out of interest, power cars from 254003 were running on the GWML at the time. I saw them several times in those two months. One was paired with one from 253025 and the other with one from 253021, because I saw them both at Reading on 22nd Nov within an hour of each other.  By December one had been paired with the spare 43121; but I only saw that pairing once, on 9th Dec.

 

As luck would have it; and to get this thread back onto the straight and narrow, I have recently purchased a slide on Ebay which shows part of 254003 at Cardiff station. 

 

It would appear that it was not just the ER power cars from this unit which were operating on the WR in late 1977/early 78, because the first coach next to E43060 is E42092.

 

Sadly the photo was not taken showing the unit from the front because that would have revealed if the catering vehicles were 40030 and 40530 which were included in the original formation of 254003.

 

[Commoner]

The set delivered to the WR at the beginning of September 1977 and nominally referred to as "254 003" was in fact a collection of new vehicles from the end of the 253 001-27 WR production run, and the beginning of the ER build 254 001-32.  Apart from 43060/61 from 254 003, the rest of the set comprised 41059 (254 002), 41071 (254 008), 40029 (254 012) and 42092/108/9/10 which eventually found their way into 253 009/25/26/27.  42092 was incorrectly prefixed and remained so, at least in to early 1978.  I have 56 separate observations of the set in traffic on the WR from 09/77 to 01/78, and 42092 remained in situ marshalled next to 43060 until the end of September 1977.  This probably means that your photograph dates from that month.  I would be interested to know whether your slide carries a precise date.

 

The set was allocated to St Philips Marsh and underwent a number of changes while on the WR.  Initially it was formed as a single TRSB set, but from mid/late October 1977 it gained a TRUK vice a TS.  Power cars 43060/61 operated in a number of different units while on the WR.  They along with 41059/71 returned to the ER in late January 1978. 40029 remained on the WR until April 1978.

 

40530 was never built as TRUK construction ceased at 40520.  Indeed, the booked formation of 254 003 when it entered service in May 1978 on the ER was 43060/61, 41061/62, 40503, 42119/20, 40020, 42121/22.  However, 40503 and 40020 were still on the WR at that time, and on entry to ER traffic the set was temporarily formed with 40508, 40030 vice 40503, 40020. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Kevin (Commoner)

[kevinlms]

They did try when delivered to retain power cars to coaches, but soon abandoned any hope of keeping a full matching set!

 

Cheers,

Mick

Funny thing is that, the LNWR worked that out a century ago. The fact that a tender took less time to go through the workshops, than did its locomotive. So long ago, they built less tenders than locomotives & merely numbered them in separate number schemes.

It caused all sorts of problems, when they were renumbered into the expanded ex-MR scheme, where the number appeared on the tender & company coat of arms on loco. They even had tenders with replaceable number boards, until wisdom took over.

But can you teach GWR/WR people anything? The GWR way or the easy way!

[jonny777]

The set delivered to the WR at the beginning of September 1977 and nominally referred to as "254 003" was in fact a collection of new vehicles from the end of the 253 001-27 WR production run, and the beginning of the ER build 254 001-32.  Apart from 43060/61 from 254 003, the rest of the set comprised 41059 (254 002), 41071 (254 008), 40029 (254 012) and 42092/108/9/10 which eventually found their way into 253 009/25/26/27.  42092 was incorrectly prefixed and remained so, at least in to early 1978.  I have 56 separate observations of the set in traffic on the WR from 09/77 to 01/78, and 42092 remained in situ marshalled next to 43060 until the end of September 1977.  This probably means that your photograph dates from that month.  I would be interested to know whether your slide carries a precise date.

 

The set was allocated to St Philips Marsh and underwent a number of changes while on the WR.  Initially it was formed as a single TRSB set, but from mid/late October 1977 it gained a TRUK vice a TS.  Power cars 43060/61 operated in a number of different units while on the WR.  They along with 41059/71 returned to the ER in late January 1978. 40029 remained on the WR until April 1978.

 

40530 was never built as TRUK construction ceased at 40520.  Indeed, the booked formation of 254 003 when it entered service in May 1978 on the ER was 43060/61, 41061/62, 40503, 42119/20, 40020, 42121/22.  However, 40503 and 40020 were still on the WR at that time, and on entry to ER traffic the set was temporarily formed with 40508, 40030 vice 40503, 40020. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Kevin (Commoner)

 

 

Thanks for all that info Kevin.

 

The slide has no date details at all. However, it seems to be together with a few that appear to be taken at the same time and locos visible have 0000 headcodes so 1977 would be ok for those.

 

I'm afraid that my knowledge of HST formations in those early days borders on nil (probably obvious by now), so I was using my 1977 RCTS Coaching Stock book for the info, which was clearly well out of date even by the time it was published.

 

It lists 254003 as comprising 43061 41061 41062 40030 40530 42092 42093 42094 42095 43060.

 

What worries me about this for future generations, is that maybe people will consult the RCTS book (as I have done) in the belief that the formations are pretty accurate which is clearly not the case by a long way.

[Downendian]

And to throw into the mix I saw at least one of the power cars of 254 001 at Cardiff on a service train on 1st October 1977, the day of the Canton open day, so plenty of others must of witnessed it. Notes are in Plymouth at the moment- I didn't unfortunately record the train formation as I considered HSTs "boring" by then, but will get the power car number here.

Neil