cornish trains jez Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Hi all, Some of you will be aware that I am currently building a layout based on Par station set during the 1980's and I'm always gathering info as to the trains and their formations so I can model some accurate trains on the layout ,the overnight sleeper being one of them. I have seen a couple of formations, one on a DVD and another in Traction magazine, but both seem to be different. Was there a set formation for these services during this period or were they just made up on the day? The formation I have seen on a DVD was a class 50042 + 4xMK2 TSO air cons, 1x MK2a BFO, MK1 BG, and 3xMK3 SLEPS. was this the norm? In terms of haulage, class 50's seem to be the favourite but did 47's or even the 45/46's ever take over this duty? Any info or photos would be most welcome. Cheers in advance. Best regards, Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 The Mk2a would have been a BFK the only BFOs made were Mk3b stock. On 28 Jan 1984 I had the following from Plymouth to Paddington: 47482; 5434, 5846, 5797, 92029, 13517, 5865, 10564, 10686, 10548, 92193, 10559, 81469, 92108 of which 10559, 81469 and 92108 were added at Plymouth By 1987 the formation you have seen on the video would have been the norm: 4 x TSO, BFK, BG, SLEP, SLE, SLEP, GUV The GUV was there for Motorail traffic. The BFK tended to be a Mk2d air-con type but an early Mk2a could easily have been used. The 5 day coaches were used as a Penzance - Plymouth shuttle service during the day I have had Class 50s solely Penzance to Plymouth with a Class 47 taking over or a Class 50 all the way through. There is no reason why a Class 47 could not have been used in Cornwall but using a Class 45 on a Paddington service would have been rare and a Sleeper service even more so. Class 46s were steam heat only so could not have heated the stock in the winter or provided air conditioning in the summer. After 1980 the Western Region lost its 46s anyway so they would normally have only been seen on inter regional summer Saturday trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 Thanks for posting the info. On the DVD, the GUV was not attached. Would this have been a one off? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 26 April 1986* at Penzance, double 50s on the up departure at 1916: From the London end: 50046 + 50027, with 93087 10673 10535 10554 92096 17081 6029 5850 19489 5812. so GUV, 3x sleepers, BG, Mk2 BFK, 2x Mk2 TSO, 1x Mk2 SK (former FK)**, 1x Mk2 TSO * a Saturday (when did the sleepers stop running on a Sat?). I came back on the Sunday, also with double 50s, reversing at Exeter to go via the SR and the Yeovil chord. Possibly (speculation) the pairs were for insurance over the diversionary route. ** had to look that one up. Later... found the photo, cropped here from a wider view. You can't see all of the train, but at least it shows the GUV in all-blue: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 Thanks for posting eastwestdivide. That gives me a couple of options now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Interesting topic I will need this one day for my Penbrea layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 26 April 1986* at Penzance, double 50s on the up departure at 1916: From the London end: 50046 + 50027, with 93087 10673 10535 10554 92096 17081 6029 5850 19489 5812. so GUV, 3x sleepers, BG, Mk2 BFK, 2x Mk2 TSO, 1x Mk2 SK (former FK)**, 1x Mk2 TSO * a Saturday (when did the sleepers stop running on a Sat?). I came back on the Sunday, also with double 50s, reversing at Exeter to go via the SR and the Yeovil chord. Possibly (speculation) the pairs were for insurance over the diversionary route. ** had to look that one up. Later... found the photo, cropped here from a wider view. You can't see all of the train, but at least it shows the GUV in all-blue: N64_0004.jpg That must have made an impressive site, 2x 50's thundering up the Cornish mainline! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tavy Man Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 The Up Sleepers or the "Owl" as we used to call it was an Exeter turn during the period being modelled from Plymouth to Bristol. I've looked back through my records and in all the times I have worked this turn it always produced a 47 on arrival from Penzance. The formation was pretty much fixed but was regularly strengthened during the summer period. In those days a portion was attached at Plymouth and the load was regularly 14 bogies on departure from Plymouth. Oh if it was still so... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 That must have made an impressive site, 2x 50's thundering up the Cornish mainline! Assuming of course that the reason for the extra loco was not due to a failure! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 I had a pair of 50s in April 1987 from Penzance to Plymouth and both were working so it was merely to get one back to Laira. In summer 1986 the sleeper was booked for 2 x 50s Penzance to Exeter; one was from the 11.45 Paddington - Penzance, the other from one of the local services. So on 20 July 1986 I to get managed 50032 Paddington - Bodmin Parkway, 50027 Bodmin Parkway - St Germans, 50011 St Germans - Camborne, 50028 Camborne - Liskeard, 50014 Liskeard - Truro, 50027 + 50032 Truro - Exeter with 50032 then to Paddington. 551.89 miles on one loco, not bad. The Motorail should have been on the rake on your video but maybe there was no need for one on that day or it was crippled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev1073 Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Interested in the Motorail traffic. Was the GUV always at the head of the train. Assume it was loaded at platform 4 and then added to the train. What happened at Plymouth if more stock was added. Trev Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Pilotman Posted September 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 9, 2014 In John Vaughan's book " An Illustrated History of the Cornish Main Line" there's a picture on page 118 of another sleeper working; the 17:00 Penzance to Glasgow & Edinburgh taken in September 1988. Others may know more about the lifespan of this train but I suspect it was a short-lived summer weekend only working. Anyway, if you're going to model it, you'll need another Mk3 sleeper coach as it had four within the 12 coach consist. Looks like a nice mixture of blue/grey and InterCity liveried stock: 47459 Mk1 Buffet (IC) 2 x Mk2d TSO (IC) Mk2a TSO (B/G) Mk2d BFK (B/G) Mk2d TSO (B/G) 3 x Mk3 SLEP (B/G) Mk3 SLEP (IC) Mk2a TSO (B/G) Mk1 BG (B/G) I'm not 100% sure I've got the sub-classes of the coaches correct but the ones that I have shown as Mk2d are air-conditioned, the Mk2as aren't. Also, the first Mk2a doesn't have a door halfway along the coach but the one second from the rear does. Hope that helps in deciding what coaches you need, if you have the space... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 When the stock was added to my train in 1984 it was added to the rear at Plymouth but that rake didn't have a Motorail GUV in it anyway. The 17.00 Penzance - Glasgow/Edinburgh was the Summer Saturday extension of what was originally the Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh. During the Summers of 1986 and 1987 the Sleeping Cars were dropped at Bristol but the day coaches carried on to Penzance, by 1988 the whole train worked all the way through to Penzance. The weekday working in 1988 was to and from Plymouth (setting down and picking up a Poole sleeper portion at Birmingham). I have a photo of the rake at Par in 1987 being 50015; Mk2 TSO, Mk2 BSO, Mk2 TSO, BG, BG, Mk2 TSO, Mk2 BSO, Mk2 TSO. No first class day coaches were allocated to this train until Winter 1987. The Mk2 TSOs and BSOs were either Mk2a or Mk2c, Craigentinny had both types. The use of a 50 on this train was rare by 1987, it was normally a 47. I suspect the rack was incorrectly joined at Carstairs and was booked BG, Mk2 TSO, Mk2 BSO, Mk2 TSO, Mk2 TSO, Mk2 BSO, Mk2 TSO, BG. By the way, their were no Mk2d BFO coaches - all the Mk2 brake first stock were BFK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share Posted September 9, 2014 When the stock was added to my train in 1984 it was added to the rear at Plymouth but that rake didn't have a Motorail GUV in it anyway. The 17.00 Penzance - Glasgow/Edinburgh was the Summer Saturday extension of what was originally the Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh. During the Summers of 1986 and 1987 the Sleeping Cars were dropped at Bristol but the day coaches carried on to Penzance, by 1988 the whole train worked all the way through to Penzance. The weekday working in 1988 was to and from Plymouth (setting down and picking up a Poole sleeper portion at Birmingham). I have a photo of the rake at Par in 1987 being 50015; Mk2 TSO, Mk2 BSO, Mk2 TSO, BG, BG, Mk2 TSO, Mk2 BSO, Mk2 TSO. No first class day coaches were allocated to this train until Winter 1987. The Mk2 TSOs and BSOs were either Mk2a or Mk2c, Craigentinny had both types. The use of a 50 on this train was rare by 1987, it was normally a 47. I suspect the rack was incorrectly joined at Carstairs and was booked BG, Mk2 TSO, Mk2 BSO, Mk2 TSO, Mk2 TSO, Mk2 BSO, Mk2 TSO, BG. By the way, their were no Mk2d BFO coaches - all the Mk2 brake first stock were BFK. Some more great info there flood. Thanks for sharing. Would you be able to post the photo of 50015 at Par? Best regards, Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Not my greatest photo, in fact probably one of my worst! I reckon this actually gives you a better photo of the station rather than the rake! 50015 Par 27 June 1987, 1V32 23.50 Glasgow/Edinburgh - Penzance Click to enlarge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Triang Paul Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Just for extras, during 83/4, the Bristol to Glasbourough could see 45/1,46,47,50. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share Posted September 9, 2014 Nice shot Flood. Thanks for posting. Certainly helps with the build of my layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Thank you for picture. Never complain about a picture of a large logo 50. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share Posted September 9, 2014 Thank you for picture. Never complain about a picture of a large logo 50. Especially if its at Par!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted September 11, 2014 Author Share Posted September 11, 2014 In John Vaughan's book " An Illustrated History of the Cornish Main Line" there's a picture on page 118 of another sleeper working; the 17:00 Penzance to Glasgow & Edinburgh taken in September 1988. Others may know more about the lifespan of this train but I suspect it was a short-lived summer weekend only working. Anyway, if you're going to model it, you'll need another Mk3 sleeper coach as it had four within the 12 coach consist. Looks like a nice mixture of blue/grey and InterCity liveried stock: 47459 Mk1 Buffet (IC) 2 x Mk2d TSO (IC) Mk2a TSO (B/G) Mk2d BFK (B/G) Mk2d TSO (B/G) 3 x Mk3 SLEP (B/G) Mk3 SLEP (IC) Mk2a TSO (B/G) Mk1 BG (B/G) I'm not 100% sure I've got the sub-classes of the coaches correct but the ones that I have shown as Mk2d are air-conditioned, the Mk2as aren't. Also, the first Mk2a doesn't have a door halfway along the coach but the one second from the rear does. Hope that helps in deciding what coaches you need, if you have the space... Hi, I meant to reply to you the other day but got completely side tracked and then forgot. Apologies, but here is my reply now! I'd completely forgotten about this photo and I also have the book in my collection! Wasn't there also a class 56 on this one? Substituting for a failed 47? This could be a very interesting train to model, and yes, I am fortunate enough to have the space. Have a look at my Par station layout thread, its a bit of work in progress but its coming along nicely now. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70745-par-station-1980s-cornish-mainline-in-2mmfs/ Best regards, Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted September 13, 2014 Author Share Posted September 13, 2014 Just stumbled across this photo on flickr, 50008 on the up Sunday sleeper in June 1988. Nice collection of liveries. https://www.flickr.com/photos/mlrail/9229408379/in/photolist-f4z8yF-ok8EtQ-io1ZEV-fEUByn-opaG4C-nz8ru2-p6nrvz-9tN84s-eWdznw-nYZpdP-n1nw7h-o9CpEA-oHb42C-cAkc6A-n1t6Hq-o4vJsp-nskATt-bVUBEt-o2PYfp-bfhXvD-a3Assn-ocwoYd-dthK2r-5A2PxF-cCHDGq-5A2PKD-a3DiU9-fCYizJ-fcZRb2-cexvnS-cBdkR5-o83kdT-9TR3RW-aoEfmG-arb86E-gxPR5r-nNoSuP-aozFqp-9tiWyo-cdv7jo-onj3oy-9jpdXg-fJowzL-9jsjqo-5aLCwX-eaYDBV-duSjvP-bW8N3p-oHxnXt-9XJ2MP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Just stumbled across this photo on flickr, 50008 on the up Sunday sleeper in June 1988. Nice collection of liveries. 4th coach looks like one of those micro-buffet conversions (red stripe over one set of windows), and is the last one a GUV? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 and is the last one a GUV? It looks like a GUV but I can't make out if it's in blue livery or blue/grey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Just found the right-click...view original, which makes it twice as big as the screen, and I still can't tell 100% - I'd say all-blue, as the blue/grey of the BG in front of it is quite clear, but the slab side and the angle of the sun makes it hard to tell on the GUV. You can see that the 3rd-to-last is a BFK though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Re-read this thread loads of great detail in it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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