buying a DCC layout when I only have DC locos and no DCC controller

[MikeHunter]

Hi Everyone. I´ve just bought a small shunting layout, nicely sceniced to exhibition standard. What I didn´t anticiate was that it is DCC wired, (no controller). Points are analogue controlled, so its an issue of running locos.

 

My question is, how practical, and expensive is it to convert to DCC? Looks as though it will cost 200 GBPish for a controller, plus around 100 GBP to convert 4 locos, does this sound about right?

 

Alternatively, how straightforward is it to modify DCC wiring so the layout can be opperated with DC? The points are all Peco insulfrog, and it looks as though the whole layout is wired to be live, but I'm not sure how this affects the points.

 

I'm likely to want to run a maximum of 2 locos at once, I have a fleet of over 40 locos, but if I go DCC they will be converted a few at a time! Most of the fleet are DCC ready, with the exception of some older Bachmann and Hornby locos, I'd love to run the L&Y Pug, but suspect it will be tricky to convert, I also have 3 Bachmann Scots all of which are split frame, which I hear is tricky. As its a shunting layout, they aren't likely to run any time soon however.

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Regards

 

Mike

[smokebox]

A track plan or photo of the layout would help in determining how it would need to be modified for dc operation.  If it's simple it could just be a case of plugging in a dc controller but if it's more complex, section switching may be needed depending on what loco movements you want to achieve and how many controllers you want to use.

[Pacific231G]

Hi Everyone. I´ve just bought a small shunting layout, nicely sceniced to exhibition standard. What I didn´t anticiate was that it is DCC wired, (no controller). Points are analogue controlled, so its an issue of running locos.

 

My question is, how practical, and expensive is it to convert to DCC? Looks as though it will cost 200 GBPish for a controller, plus around 100 GBP to convert 4 locos, does this sound about right?

 

Alternatively, how straightforward is it to modify DCC wiring so the layout can be opperated with DC? The points are all Peco insulfrog, and it looks as though the whole layout is wired to be live, but I'm not sure how this affects the points.

 

I'm likely to want to run a maximum of 2 locos at once, I have a fleet of over 40 locos, but if I go DCC they will be converted a few at a time! Most of the fleet are DCC ready, with the exception of some older Bachmann and Hornby locos, I'd love to run the L&Y Pug, but suspect it will be tricky to convert, I also have 3 Bachmann Scots all of which are split frame, which I hear is tricky. As its a shunting layout, they aren't likely to run any time soon however.

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Regards

 

Mike

A layout wired for DCC should operate with a single locomotive and a DC controller without any trouble. The rules about avoiding short circuits are the same but for DCC the whole layout would be electrically live all the time and for a small layout probably as a single zone.  If you want to operate more than one loco (I assume that on a shunting layout they'd not be running simultaneously)  it may be enough to simply disconnect some of the feeds to sidings so that they are switched by the points but you may need to add a couple of section switches to isolate one or other loco.

 

I think your first step should be to trace the existing wiring to find out which wire is feeding which rail and where any insulated breaks have been placed (for insulfrog there may not be any) and draw that up on a track plan. For a small shunting layout it shouldn't be that complicated. You can then work out what modifications to the wirjng are needed and with that plan I'm sure that people here can help with that.

[tractor_37260]

Hi Mike

             If the layout is presently DCC wired, you can always confirm that with the previous owner, why not try using DCC.  For a good basic DCC system. ie a Roco Multimaus set up can be purchased new for under £100,  -  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roco-Multimaus-DIGITAL-DCC-Controller-Set-HO-00-N-Gauge-NEW-/171415433791?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item27e927f23f&nma=true&si=HGQ5TZomTgmYYg7o%252BB%252By7Z8aFWU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

this has all you'll need to get you started. It should also be possible to add good basic decoders to 4 locos for less than £100, provided you can fit them yourself.

 

Using DC on the layout as it is should also be possible, but you may find that if all tracks are live at all times, you would only be able to put one loco on the tracks at a time, as with DC control there would normally be isolated sidings/sections etc some being controlled via the points in sidings etc so more than one loco can be on the layout at the same time.

 

DCC control is much more flexible in use, with superb slow speed running, constant lighting, and within reason, no limit to the number of locos on the tracks, although on a small shunting layout this will not apply. Very few modellers that have changed over to DCC control have even considered going back to DC.

 

HTH

[Steven B]

You should be able to get a DCC controller plus four or five decoders for about £200.

 

A Digitrax Zephyr or NCE Power Cab will set you back about £130-150 and will be more than enough to run two locos at a time.

 

Alternatively the Bachmann trainset controller is about £60-70 (£130 if bought with a DCC train set); It's very basic (max nine locos) with limited re-programming abilities (loco address only) but is good enough to get started with.

 

Fitting decoders isn't too tricky - suitable decoders should cost under £15 (yes you can spend more and get better performance but that's a decision you can make later).

 

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[skipepsi]

Fitting a decoder to the L&Y has been covered on here previously but you will need to be better at searching the forum than me....... At the risk of upsetting someone DCC can be obtained for a lot less than £200 and decoders can be fitted even by me and my sausage fingers. I would suggest if you are a club member to find a DCC user and take the layout to them for a demo of DCC then make your mind up which way you want to go.

[Crosland]

Good wiring practice is the same, whether DC or DCC. The ultimate aim is the same, get power to the locos. With DCC the control of locos is in the loco, with DC you need separate power feeds and a bank of switches to route the power from as many controllers as you want trains to run.

 

Issues around dead from or electrofrog are the same. Electrofrog, however wired, will always give better results. isolating and switching the frogs is best practice for reliability, for both DC and DCC, just ask anyone who builds their own track.

 

For DC you need to plan where you want independent control and isolate those sections of track by cutting the rail and disconnecting them from the DCC wiring. Connect them to the section switches.

 

You can easily revert to DCC in the future by connecting all of the sections to the same controller, replacing that controller with a DCC system.

 

[edit]

Just realised this is a shunting plank. Is the trackwork atually complex enough to allow two, or more, simultaneously running locos? If not then all you may need to do is arrange for a few isolated parking spaces at the ends of sidings/fiddle yard.

 

Andrew

[MikeHunter]

Thanks for the swift responses everyone. All very helpful. I'm tempted to take the plunge and go DCC. The suggestion about tracing the wiring is very helpful. My wiring normally looks like spaghetti, but the layout is extremely well wired, which tempts me towards leaving well alone and just going DCC. I probably won't run more than one loco at once, though there are two exits to the fiddle yard, and 4 parallel sidings, so it would be quite easy to shunt front and back sections simultaneously. There is no run round loop, so bringing in a train engine, and the ability to run a shunter on the same track is quite tempting. I had a demo of a single DC loco running on the layout with current wiring, its the live sidings and need to install sections which puts me off DC, on the other hand, its going to be a lot of work to chip all my locos. Has anyone on here got fed up and changed back having gone DCC, or is it really much better than DC operation?

 

I've added a photo with an overall view of the layout. The scenic section is 7ft long, there are 5 points (plus 2 in the fiddle yard), there are 4 parallel tracks, and the back siding is going to be fun, as you can only get an 0-6-0 and a single short wagon in the headshunt. Interchanging wagons between two locos is going to be necessary. I'm looking at adding on to the left hand end, with a riverside station, but would need to alter the track plan if I do this, so its a project for the future.

[Crosland]

Some will say DCC is only needed for more complex layouts but, IMHO, DCC is ideal for even the smallest shunting layouts where you want to bring one loco up behind another without fussing over isolating switches.

 

You only need to chip one or two locos to start with and, with most decoders, they will still work on your DC layout.

 

Andrew

[johnb]

Hi MIke

 

I've gone DCC in recent years and am not looking back!!  Chipping DCC ready locos is not that difficult. The usual pain is actually getting the body off the chassis and then getting it back on again. Plugging in the chip is usually simplicity itself, note that I say USUALLY. I'm a dlesel and electric modeller and most diesels are easy to do. It's the Bachy EMUs that take the time in actually getting the body off without damage, plugging in a 21pin chip takes all of a few seconds.

 

As for controllers I use and like the NCE Powercab. It is simple to get started with it, but has a lot of facilities that can be used later. When setting up a loco with the program track section, it does most of the CV twiddling for you, no real need to alter CVs manually unless you want or need to for some reason. I used it as my starter set about three years ago and have found no need to go to the bigger and more expensive ProCab. I am into small OO and HO layouts and the Powercab's 2amp output suits me fine as I don't have sound except for a couple of US locos.

 

But before you do buy a controller, do try several types and see what you personally like. I looked at Digitrax, Roco, Lenz and NCE. I settled on NCE, but you will find proponents of all the others around this forum.

 

As for chips, I have used a variety in both US and UK models, TCS, NCE, DCC Concepts, Bachmann, a couple of Digitrax and a couple of Hornby. All have suited what I do, the basic Hornby's are a bit limited though. Personally I like TCS as they are smallish and fully insulated around the electronic bits. I keep things simple and only really use the chips for loco control and simple lighting, so the basic ones are fine for me.

 

DCC point control I have not used, on small layouts it's either manual or analogue control, so can't comment there.

 

Have fun

 

John

[sdw7300]

Hi Mike

 

Another vote for going to DCC. I "converted" recently and love it. I have an NCE Powercab and use Hatton's decoders which come out at about £10 each (They are actually DCC Concepts chips reboxed as Hattons). Don't let talk of changing CV's confuse you / put you off - I haven't bothered changing any. (I might do in the future once I learn a bit more about DCC but for now my loco's go forward and backwards so I'm happy!) 

 

Chipping loco's is fairly easy. For loco's which are "DCC Ready" it's simply a case of lifting the body off and plugging in a chip. For older loco's you cut the wires from the pick-up to the motor and solder in the chip - there are loads of fitting guides in the DCC area of the forum.

 

Cheers

[Pacific231G]

Thanks for the swift responses everyone. All very helpful. I'm tempted to take the plunge and go DCC. The suggestion about tracing the wiring is very helpful. My wiring normally looks like spaghetti, but the layout is extremely well wired, which tempts me towards leaving well alone and just going DCC. I probably won't run more than one loco at once, though there are two exits to the fiddle yard, and 4 parallel sidings, so it would be quite easy to shunt front and back sections simultaneously. There is no run round loop, so bringing in a train engine, and the ability to run a shunter on the same track is quite tempting. I had a demo of a single DC loco running on the layout with current wiring, its the live sidings and need to install sections which puts me off DC, on the other hand, its going to be a lot of work to chip all my locos. Has anyone on here got fed up and changed back having gone DCC, or is it really much better than DC operation?

 

I've added a photo with an overall view of the layout. The scenic section is 7ft long, there are 5 points (plus 2 in the fiddle yard), there are 4 parallel tracks, and the back siding is going to be fun, as you can only get an 0-6-0 and a single short wagon in the headshunt. Interchanging wagons between two locos is going to be necessary. I'm looking at adding on to the left hand end, with a riverside station, but would need to alter the track plan if I do this, so its a project for the future.

Best of luick with the layout and whether you go DCC or DC there's nothing like having a small layout where you can do some quiet wagon bashing whenever the mood takes you.

For DC I was quite taken with the arrangement that  Geoff Ashdown usd for his EM gauge  'Tower Pier' terminus where all the tracks were live (with a single controller for the passenger terminus and another for the  goods lines with no connections between them) but there were individual "hand brake" sections where a loco could be isolated.

[Reorte]

If you're going to DCC it doesn't stop you using any other existing layouts you've got either, just wire all the sections together and swap the controller over, no need to buy another one if you don't want to. Keep the DC controller and a bit of test track though for giving any new non-DCC locos a test run, it's useful for ironing out any running issues.

[AngryMeerkat]

If it's cost that's putting you off, don't be scared to try the Hornby Select. It'll cost you £35 for the controller, granted it's basic but as a first go at DCC it does everything you need - loco's move and lights can be operated. If you like DCC then you can upgrade your controller later, if not you're only £35 out of pocket and not £150+. At this point many people are going to say steer clear of Hornby, but mine has served me well for over 4 years and I'm only looking to upgrade as I want to start getting some sound loco's.

 

As for decoders - DCC ready is easy, plug in your decoder and that's it. For a basic 4 function decoder you can pay around £15, I'm currently using Gaugemaster decoders which cost £16 and are perfect. As most posters above have said, You won't struggle with fitting a decoder in a DCC ready loco.

 

If your loco isn't DCC ready then it's still (usually) relatively easy to convert as long as you can solder to a basic standard. Getting the motor running is four wires, it really is that simple.

 

Mark

[Pete the Elaner]

I also started with a Hornby Select to see if I liked DCC. After 3 hours, I knew DCC was for me & after 3 days, I wanted more than the Select. I soon bought a Powercab & still have it.

For me, DCC's selling point was that for the first time, I felt like I was in control of the train itself.

I didn't chip all my locos at once (I must have about 50-100). I started with about 4 & bought one now & again. Before I knew it, most of my stock is chipped & I have no memory of doing most of them. I think I must have a chip fairy in the house.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...My question is, how practical .. is it to convert to DCC?

 

 ... I'd love to run the L&Y Pug, but suspect it will be tricky to convert... 

The practicality side of conversion will be determined for you by that L&Y pug. This, while small, has readily isolated connections between pick ups and the motor brush tags ; it does need thought about exactly where a compact decoder can be located, and how the wiring is to run. But if you can cut metal, estimate wiring run lengths and make neat soldered electrical joints, which are then covered with heatshrink insulation, you have the basic toolkit. I'd choose a small high grade decoder, Lenz Silver mini, or if a 'stay alive' capability proved necessary* would go to the Zimo MX620.

 

Once you have done a small loco, it is easy thereafter. Often ignoring the 'DCC ready' provision is the best course; many models have an ineptly mounted and bulky socket in a non-ideal location. Ripping out all this junk and hardwiring is very often the better choice. (In fairness to the RTR manufacturers they have been improving on this front, some of the more recent model toolings are genuinely plug and play. I was much taken with Bach's new class 03 model in this respect, and there are others that are similarly in the 'neatly done' category.)

 

*The 'always on at full voltage' track supply of DCC shows up to great advantage on a small layout where reliable slow speed movement is a primary requirement, as the pick up is so much better. Locos start every time, with a dead slow creep into (and out of) motion if that is required. Part of the attraction of DCC to me was the prospect of 'stay alive' to overcome the slight hesitancy at low speed and occasional failure to start on DC. Over a dozen years on, and I have so far not needed the 'stay alive' facility at all! I wouldn't go back to DC, FATTIC.

[RedgateModels]

Mike,

 

having been given advance notice of the questions Steve Lemacq will be asking me in the RMweb Theatre at this weekend's show you really should try to be there at midday on either day - it just about covers your topic

[MikeHunter]

Mike,

 

having been given advance notice of the questions Steve Lemacq will be asking me in the RMweb Theatre at this weekend's show you really should try to be there at midday on either day - it just about covers your topic

Would love to, but I'm away this weekend.   The local model shop has been quite helpful. I'm going to have to bite the bullet and go DCC. Reassured by a lot of the comments about fitting decoders. Will probably start with three or 4 locos, my new Bachmann 3Fs will look great on shunting duties, what an amazing little loco. Eagerly awaiting a half cab as well. Will tackle the Pug on one of those cold winter evenings....

[MikeHunter]

Thanks for all the help, I've bitten the bullet and gone DCC. Thanks for the advice about the NCE Power Cab, really pleased with it. I was able to wire it up and chip three logos this afternoon, they were DCC ready so pretty easy. They are half cab, L&Y 2-4-2 and a 3F, amazing results. I may have a go at hard wiring a loco next, possibly a Jinty, (I have 3 and none are DCC ready.

[johnb]

Well done MIke, you won't go back now!!!

 

Thanks for your thanks, it's good to know how people get on. Looks a rather nice little layout that you've acquired, you will have fun with that. It's very exhibitable too, so are you planning to get it on the circuit?

 

Keep in touch we will all like to know about your progress.

 

regards

 

John

[MikeHunter]

Progressing nicely, chickened out of Hard wiring the Jinty in favour of chipping my Stanier 2-6-4 tank, shock it's too wide for the loading gauge, fouls the coal stage, sharp knife and file time to reidy this weekend.

 

I have had problems with my Bachmann 4F though, thought it would be really easy as the tender is the same as the 3F, but can't get the chip to respond, do they ever come faulty when new? It's a Bachmann 21 pin.

[johnb]

I have had problems with my Bachmann 4F though, thought it would be really easy as the tender is the same as the 3F, but can't get the chip to respond, do they ever come faulty when new? It's a Bachmann 21 pin.

Yes!!

 

But have you tried another known good chip in the loco? If you use the program track to do the setup, then the risk to the good chip in the event of a fault on the loco is reduced.

 

Also do check that none of the pins is bent. Easy to do as they aren't very strong, unless you push the chip on squarely it can happen, guess how I know that!!!

 

Just a couple of ideas from experiences.

 

John

[MikeHunter]

Thx John, two of the pins were bent, I spent ages straightening them with a pair of tweezers. Decided to give it one last try, and managed to program it straight away. I was so traumatised trying to remove the tender top that I wasn't thinking straight when Itried it the first time! What an amazing loco!

[johnb]

That's good news, yes straightening the pins for a 21 pin chip is rather fiddley!!!

 

John

[MikeHunter]

Thanks for all the replies on this topic, I'm now thoroughly hooked on DCC, just finishing my 10th loco conversion. I've found DCC ready logos generally straightforward, my latest is LMS 5036. The biggest problem has been fitting Kadees, much more hassle than the decoder! I've also doubled the number of points on the layout, adding a crossover between the three main tracks using two short radius points and a double slip. It has revolutionised operation, and so much easier than DC. I was able to reuse the existing track feeds, just made judicious use of insulated rail joiners. Can now actually use the back siding, the head shunt only allowed 1 wagon before, totally useless, I can also run round to my hearts content. Also makes the layout accessible to larger locos, hence the black 5.