Mike Mackay Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Hi all, Is anyone aware of damage caused to DCC components by the use of electrostatic grass machines (near trackwork, obviously)? I will shortly be at the stage of scenicing with one of these things and wonder whether any, or what, precautions are necessary. I can switch out the booster, but circuit breakers for each power district are hard-wired to the busses. Removing locomotives is a minor pain, but I shall probably do that. There are no auxiliary decoders on the layout. Is there any value in jumping the busses to household ground temporarily? Any comments or experience of this issue would be appreciated. -- Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I dont think you will have any issues at all, I and my friends have used the system when The digital system was in use many times, without any problems whatsoever Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mackay Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 Dutch, Steve, thanks for the comments. It sounds as if there should not be much of a problem, but I'll take a few precautions anyway. -- If anything fries, I'll update this topic as a caution to others... Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 All computers (and that's what your DCC controller and decoders are) are susceptible to damage by large electro-magnetic force (EMF) fields. Every electricsal device creates these fields including transformers and motors which run in close proximity to your controllers/decoders every day. However large static charges can produce EMF spikes. Since you can't control the spark there is a small risk that you may cause damage to your DCC equipment when using a static applicator in close proximity. Only you can decide if you're willing to take that risk, personally I wouldn't. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 I would have the power off at the wall and I would remove the locomotives and any other rolling stock as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold kipford Posted September 29, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 29, 2014 Brighton East has static grass and is DCC. The grass was applied with all power supplies disconnected and all stock removed. The ESU Switch Pilots had to be left connected, but everything was ok. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted September 29, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 29, 2014 Interesting topic.My qualifications and experience tells me that it will have no effect as only one electrode is 'exposed' resulting in, in this case, 'floating' potentials.(Don't touch the electrode inside the applicator!!!)My brain asks “how much 'charge' is actually transferred when a 'handful' of grass lands into the glue?(Where there is a path back to the static applicator.)My heart says :–“My trains, my trains! Don't let all that voltage anywhere near my precious trains!”Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted September 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 30, 2014 My brain asks “how much 'charge' is actually transferred when a 'handful' of grass lands into the glue? At the recent excellent RMweb show, at the Ricoh, I was given a demonstration of a Static Grass Applicator. The Vendor extolled the virtues of his design over others, and to be fair, it did work extremely well – especially when a certain member, with a stunning layout/thread here, also said he preferred this Applicator over other more 'expensive' offerings. Anyways I digress, after finishing the demo, (I did not buy but will), a mother and daughter stepped up for the spiel. The Vendor immediately asked the girl, of about eight, if she would like a 'furry green' finger nail! He did not, at this stage, emphasise the 18kV, (like he did with me!), but just said that she might feel “a little prickly sensation” and with that applied glue to the said nail, added grass to the applicator, switched it on and shook it, and then placed the 'free end' electrode on her finger near the nail and applied grass as if from a salt cellar. Result – one rich even furry green finger nail and a very pleased little girl. I was really impressed! Now, how much voltage is “a little prickly sensation”? I don't really know but some say they can 'feel' voltages above 12v. But this is not really relevant. The 'static' electricity(!), or charge, really really wants to get back to the Applicator. It WILL take the easiest route too, and the electrode into the glue locally is this route. The worst case would be to 'static grass' one rail whilst having the return electrode on the other. Would this 'kill' DCC stuff? Again, I don't know but to ensure I never find out I will just follow Dutch_Master's advice and place a coin on the dead rails locally. Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Most people will feel quite low voltages on the tongue which is in a nice moist environment. DO NOT TRY THAT AT HOME. Remember the old saying "It's the Amps that cramps and the Volts that jolts" It may be 18KV, but it will be very low current and, as you correctly point out, what current there is will only be flowing through a few mm of nail and skin. On the other hand a few 10s of volts can kill under the right (or should that be wrong) circumstances. Electrical equipment on UK building sites is (or used to be, I think the EU may have interfered) powered from 110 but this is sourced from a transformer with a centre tap connected to earth, so that no part of the equipment is ever more than 55V above earth potential. It also depends on the individual. As I understand it, approximately 5% of the population will not be protected by a 30mA RCD in their home (way higher than what the static grass machine can source). I wonder if the exhibition's health and safety rep was aware of what he was doing. No matter how safe it might be I can imagine the reaction these days Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 The 'message' I'm getting is as clear as mud! First it's fine, then it isn't, then it is and then it isn't!!! Has any DCC modeller actually experienced 'damage' through the use of a static grass applicator?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 The 'message' I'm getting is as clear as mud! First it's fine, then it isn't, then it is and then it isn't!!! This is the internet Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 You mean people tend to waffle a lot but don't actually focus on giving a direct answer to the question asked?... thus merely contributing towards the confusion... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mackay Posted April 28, 2015 Author Share Posted April 28, 2015 To follow up on this issue, I recently asked the same question on the Railways of Germany forum, and Brian Gates posted a link to the following YouTube vid wherein a number of LEDs on the Miniatur Wunderland layout were apparently blown by the use of a static grass applicator. I will be using suitable precautions when I have mine ready... -- Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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