FIDDLE YARDS FOR 7mm - What's Best?

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi Everyone,

 

Getting dangerously close to constructing a Fiddle Yard (FY) for Down Ampney <swoons with excitement>

 

I wondered what the perceived wisdom is when it comes to FYs in 7mm (eg to supply/feed a 16-17' layout such as Down Ampney)?

 

I have received some great advice and help from several on here (RMW) and elsewhere and I am truly grateful and yet there are still those that contradict the two main options (ie Cassettes vs Traversers) with 'sage advice' (in certain publications).

 

I can see the arguments for both.

 

My latest 'wobble' between the two - main - types is that I have read that a Traverser, if too long, will bend in the middle (between the two runners) and that cassettes would be too unwieldy. It also has to be remembered that Heljan and DJH diesels are heavy.

 

I have heard arguments for and against the above reasons too.

 

We plan to run up to 3 x MK1 coaches (with the biggest locos being a Cl37 and Cl47) - so the FY needs to cope with these formations.

 

I was wondering if there was a 'rule of thumb' for these things?

 

Thanks in anticipation,

 

Kindest,

 

CME

 

 

[HSB]

Hi CME,

I think cassettes are OK for shortish trains as long as you're only sliding them around or just lifting them a few inches over other cassettes. If you're thinking of lifting them off the layout to turn around or put somewhere else I think they would be an expensive accident waiting to happen!

 

Cheers

[66C]

Hi

 

It would help in giving you advice if you could post a sketch showing how the fiddle yard relates to the rest of the layout. The advice offered may well be different for a single-ended arrangement compared with a through running setup.

 

My own preferences would be a sector plate for a single-ended fiddle yard as it would be easier to construct than a traverser. Be careful in either case not to under-engineer the movable table.

 

For a through yard I suggest a set of loops - I know the turnouts take up space but are preferable to either a traverser (the road you want is never aligned!) or a rotating sector plate (problems with through running).

 

Regards.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi CME,

I think cassettes are OK for shortish trains as long as you're only sliding them around or just lifting them a few inches over other cassettes. If you're thinking of lifting them off the layout to turn around or put somewhere else I think they would be an expensive accident waiting to happen!

 

Cheers

Hi Howard,

 

Thanks - I agree, seeing Ramchester's FY and the size of the layout really helped me. I havent the room for a FY like Ramchesters, so it will have to be Traverser or Cassettes.

 

Kindest,

 

CME

 

Hi

 

It would help in giving you advice if you could post a sketch showing how the fiddle yard relates to the rest of the layout. The advice offered may well be different for a single-ended arrangement compared with a through running setup.

 

My own preferences would be a sector plate for a single-ended fiddle yard as it would be easier to construct than a traverser. Be careful in either case not to under-engineer the movable table.

 

For a through yard I suggest a set of loops - I know the turnouts take up space but are preferable to either a traverser (the road you want is never aligned!) or a rotating sector plate (problems with through running).

 

Regards.

Hi 66C,

 

Thanks - I will try and do a sketch (but would have to be hand drawn some time next week).

 

In the meantime - being realistic - the layout is a 'U'.

 

The FY is in the garage on one side, the line then goes out around our little garden, then back into the garage and the scenic section (Down Ampney). I have toyed with the idea of a temporary link at the other end of the garage (between the scenic section and FY) so as to have a complete circuit for running-in engines BUT I dont think it is realistic in the grand scheme of things (the radii may be too tight and all a bit of a chore). If all goes well there will be a single NG line on the scenic section and I wondered about using the temporary link and having a couple of NG sidings in the main FY (but once again keeping the NG line may be best 'self contained' on the scenic boards).

 

But basically a 'U' - so single ended.

 

That said the FY will be tight up against a garage wall, so a sector plate may not work?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77273-down-ampney/

 

Kindest,

 

CME

[81A Oldoak]

I have opted for a sector plate on Cwm Bach. It has three lines each 54" long. The board is 2' wide and were it not for the elevated storage siding for the colliery branch, I could have fitted 4 tracks on the plate. I accept that there will be manual handling of the locomotives, but this is mitigated by the facts that I won't be operating at exhibition intensity and I will be swapping over stock regularly to ring the changes. If space were no object I think I would like a turntable fed by a fan of points a la Peter Denny. However, that is not ideal for the South Wales Valleys as the locos were always chimney first in the up direction.

[puddlejumper]

You could do a sort of hybrid of sector plate & cassette, in essence you run your train through the sector plate with a shortish (longest loco length) cassette at the end of the sector plate so you can turn your locos???

Just a thought??

[HSB]

You could consider a vertical traverser although that would be a complicated job or how about a lift to drop trains to a low-level fiddle-yard under the baseboard? Just thinking outside the box.

[81A Oldoak]

How about making the fiddle-yard another station?

[Chubber]

There is no reason why the design below should not work very well in 'O' gauge. The swivelling tracl is supported on two sides throughout its length, indexing by a perspex and ball catch is positive and reliably repeatable. It provides an off-scene run-round facility, and in this instance nearly 15 foot of highly flexible 'parking' in less than 4ft of board.

 

Designed for an 'out and back' BLT, by amending the pivot point on the small sector plate to a central position a steam outline locomotive can be turned in a very small place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Doug

[81A Oldoak]

There is no reason why the design below should not work very well in 'O' gauge. The swivelling tracl is supported on two sides throughout its length, indexing by a perspex and ball catch is positive and reliably repeatable. It provides an off-scene run-round facility, and in this instance nearly 15 foot of highly flexible 'parking' in less than 4ft of board.

 

Designed for an 'out and back' BLT, by amending the pivot point on the small sector plate to a central position a steam outline locomotive can be turned in a very small place.

 

7a.jpg

 

1a.jpg

 

2a.jpg

 

3a.jpg

 

4a.jpg

 

5a.jpg

 

6a.jpg

 

 

Doug

Looks well made. What is the strange scale? 

[brianusa]

How about making the fiddle-yard another station?

I've often thought that would be a logical way to go! They're all too often hidden away behind a back board or something, when they could add to the layout.

 

Brian.

[LaScala]

I went for a 3 road turntable, one straight road and two at a more or less constant curve.  It takes tank + 10-11 wagons, or tender loco + 2 bogie coaches (if I had any) + van.

 

To overcome the loco being unrealistically turned, I put a kick back road on the scenic end of the table running under an embankment to allow flexibility and a bit more storage.

 

With substantial barrel bolts soldered to PCB under the track for power supply it's simple.  A cheap "Lazy Susan" provides a nice big support of about 45cm with ball bearings for ease of spinning.  I found I needed aluminium angles above the table to give it rigidity when fully loaded.  DCC makes reversal no issue.

 

Hinged handles at each end also double as safety barriers so nothing can fall off in mid flight.

 

Here is my effort anyway:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34986-o-gauge-turntable/

[Donw]

For a large traverser about 7ft long I used three fully extending drawer runners laid flat on their side underneath the traverser. One each end and one in the middle to support it. The runners came from B&Q and were the type woth ball bearings.

 

I found one problem with Cassette was that my ABC and Portescap powered locos with efficient gearboxes will roll freely on quite a slight slope. So I like to keep the cassette size down to something where I can hold both ends for safety. 1m was ok

 

Don

[Guest Jim Read]

Hello CME & B,

 

I would advise a traverser with a loco release at one end, use thin ply for the base and make a tongue and groove at both ends, the slides only need to be graphited timber and some sawn off threaded bits with slots to make adjusters against stops to line the tracks up. Once it's been in use for a day or so it will move with the slightest finger pressure.

 

I've seen cassettes dropped and with a sector plate the only way to release a loco is to keep picking it up.

 

Cheers - Jim

[Barnaby]

At present I've gone for the plain slip and slide cassettes but I have been recently thinking of changing it over to a rotating sector plate.  Now I've got a few more possible ideas from some of the above suggestions.

 

As for any suggestions I think it is more of a "needs must" what will do it for you.

Note down what you want to do, then choose the simplest way to achieve it.  In my case I will need to rotate my trains but have limited space in the fiddle yard but the rotating sector plate idea might solve my issues. IE run it as a normal sector plate then when I want to rotate the train pull the sector plate back and rotate. But there is now another gleam of an idea taken from above of just having the rotation bit at the max loco length or a small sector plate to take the loco and run it back along the next track but the number of fiddle yard moves required my kill this, I need to play..............

 

I suppose I don't have to rotate every train but set up my locos as some tender first others boiler first then I only need to get the loco to the other end of the train.

 

 

Regards

[Chubber]

At present I've gone for the plain slip and slide cassettes but I have been recently thinking of changing it over to a rotating sector plate. Now I've got a few more possible ideas from some of the above suggestions.

 

As for any suggestions I think it is more of a "needs must" what will do it for you.

Note down what you want to do, then choose the simplest way to achieve it. In my case I will need to rotate my trains but have limited space in the fiddle yard but the rotating sector plate idea might solve my issues. IE run it as a normal sector plate then when I want to rotate the train pull the sector plate back and rotate. But there is now another gleam of an idea taken from above of just having the rotation bit at the max loco length or a small sector plate to take the loco and run it back along the next track but the number of fiddle yard moves required my kill this, I need to play..............

 

I suppose I don't have to rotate every train but set up my locos as some tender first others boiler first then I only need to get the loco to the other end of the train.

 

 

Regards

Be sure to take photos...I don't suppose diesel - weasels would worry too much about turning locomotives, but for those semi-purists who like their steam locomotives to have authentic front buffer beams it's essential. As I designed the sector plate for a BLT it didn't seem too unrealistic to use only the run round facility.

 

D

[Mike Boucher]

At present I've gone for the plain slip and slide cassettes but I have been recently thinking of changing it over to a rotating sector plate.  Now I've got a few more possible ideas from some of the above suggestions.

 

As for any suggestions I think it is more of a "needs must" what will do it for you.

Note down what you want to do, then choose the simplest way to achieve it.  In my case I will need to rotate my trains but have limited space in the fiddle yard but the rotating sector plate idea might solve my issues. IE run it as a normal sector plate then when I want to rotate the train pull the sector plate back and rotate. But there is now another gleam of an idea taken from above of just having the rotation bit at the max loco length or a small sector plate to take the loco and run it back along the next track but the number of fiddle yard moves required my kill this, I need to play..............

 

I suppose I don't have to rotate every train but set up my locos as some tender first others boiler first then I only need to get the loco to the other end of the train.

 

 

Regards

 

A friend built a "whole train turntable" for his exhibition layout.  After a few shows, he scrapped it and went to a simple 3 track traverser.  The turntable was too heavy to move without two people, and had a nasty tendency to rotate unexpectedly they were trying to set it up.

 

Based on his experience, if you're going to bring your layout on the exhibition tour, you might want to consider the weight factor involved in making a stable "whole train turntable"...

[Barnaby]

Yes I think you are correct not a good idea.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I have opted for a sector plate on Cwm Bach. It has three lines each 54" long. The board is 2' wide and were it not for the elevated storage siding for the colliery branch, I could have fitted 4 tracks on the plate. I accept that there will be manual handling of the locomotives, but this is mitigated by the facts that I won't be operating at exhibition intensity and I will be swapping over stock regularly to ring the changes. If space were no object I think I would like a turntable fed by a fan of points a la Peter Denny. However, that is not ideal for the South Wales Valleys as the locos were always chimney first in the up direction.

Hi Chris,

 

Thanks - my alerts for Cwm Bach seem to have stalled, not sure why - for the advice.

 

You could do a sort of hybrid of sector plate & cassette, in essence you run your train through the sector plate with a shortish (longest loco length) cassette at the end of the sector plate so you can turn your locos???

Just a thought??

Thanks Puddlejumper - I was trying to ponder something similar. Most of the locos will be diesels with the occasional steamer.

 

You could consider a vertical traverser although that would be a complicated job or how about a lift to drop trains to a low-level fiddle-yard under the baseboard? Just thinking outside the box.

Hi Howard,

 

I have seen drawings of those - a very neat idea - but there are space restrictions as it still has to function as a shed/garage.

How about making the fiddle-yard another station?

I like that idea very much and was toying with another micro-layout or two bolted (interchangeable) to the end of the FY, but thought that space would be too tight (so the micro layouts would be stored/used indoors).

 

There is no reason why the design below should not work very well in 'O' gauge. The swivelling tracl is supported on two sides throughout its length, indexing by a perspex and ball catch is positive and reliably repeatable. It provides an off-scene run-round facility, and in this instance nearly 15 foot of highly flexible 'parking' in less than 4ft of board.

 

Designed for an 'out and back' BLT, by amending the pivot point on the small sector plate to a central position a steam outline locomotive can be turned in a very small place.

 

7a.jpg

 

1a.jpg

 

2a.jpg

 

3a.jpg

 

4a.jpg

 

5a.jpg

 

6a.jpg

 

 

Doug

Hi Doug,

 

Wow nice work and it could work for Down Ampney.

 

Thanks!

 

I went for a 3 road turntable, one straight road and two at a more or less constant curve.  It takes tank + 10-11 wagons, or tender loco + 2 bogie coaches (if I had any) + van.

 

To overcome the loco being unrealistically turned, I put a kick back road on the scenic end of the table running under an embankment to allow flexibility and a bit more storage.

 

With substantial barrel bolts soldered to PCB under the track for power supply it's simple.  A cheap "Lazy Susan" provides a nice big support of about 45cm with ball bearings for ease of spinning.  I found I needed aluminium angles above the table to give it rigidity when fully loaded.  DCC makes reversal no issue.

 

Hinged handles at each end also double as safety barriers so nothing can fall off in mid flight.

 

Here is my effort anyway:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34986-o-gauge-turntable/

Hi,

 

Great idea yet I dont think that I have the room - also the layout is tight to the wall.

 

I like the idea of 'rat-runs' or kick back roads though.

 

For a large traverser about 7ft long I used three fully extending drawer runners laid flat on their side underneath the traverser. One each end and one in the middle to support it. The runners came from B&Q and were the type woth ball bearings.

 

I found one problem with Cassette was that my ABC and Portescap powered locos with efficient gearboxes will roll freely on quite a slight slope. So I like to keep the cassette size down to something where I can hold both ends for safety. 1m was ok

 

Don

Hi Don,

 

Thanks - I have used HD draw runners for computer tables in the past - that's a neat idea though to fit an additional one in the middle and mounted on their sides (I had only every seen them fitted in the standard configuration). I was pondering that 3 x Mk1's and eg. a Cl47 that would be about 6' which would, I suppose, as many have said, that would be very unweildy for cassettes - this is where, despite running dad's SM32 stuff, my mind still thinks in 4mm when it comes to FY's.

 

A friend built a "whole train turntable" for his exhibition layout.  After a few shows, he scrapped it and went to a simple 3 track traverser.  The turntable was too heavy to move without two people, and had a nasty tendency to rotate unexpectedly they were trying to set it up.

 

Based on his experience, if you're going to bring your layout on the exhibition tour, you might want to consider the weight factor involved in making a stable "whole train turntable"...

Hi Mike,

 

That was a shame - this will be a layout that doesnt leave home - and it's these sort of issues that I have to consider, thanks for the sage advice.

 

I would just like to say thanks to everyone for all of your help, support and kind words, it is all much appreciated, hopefully this will be a useful Thread for other 'newbies' too!

[flexible_coupling]

Hospital Gates has an excellent setup (I was looking up the layout as a general inspiration and didn't realize their fiddle-yard arrangement);

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=710864&sid=56ccfe2fbc6d19515043eec43ead95d8#p710864

 

The first image in that linked post shows the combined short turntable and multiple storage roads. I'm quite inclined to draw up an equivalent to permit a four foot long train to be turned and stowed...

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hospital Gates has an excellent setup (I was looking up the layout as a general inspiration and didn't realize their fiddle-yard arrangement);

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=710864&sid=56ccfe2fbc6d19515043eec43ead95d8#p710864

 

The first image in that linked post shows the combined short turntable and multiple storage roads. I'm quite inclined to draw up an equivalent to permit a four foot long train to be turned and stowed...

Hi FC,

 

Thanks that is a useful idea, yet I dont think that it would work in our location - I shall ponder it for awhile though!

 

Kind regards,

 

CME

[Hesperus]

 

 

 

My latest 'wobble' between the two - main - types is that I have read that a Traverser, if too long, will bend in the middle (between the two runners) and that cassettes would be too unwieldy.

Traversers were used for full sized rolling stock so it certainly isn't a given that a long one will bend. One that bends under the weight of model trains is simply under engineered. A full sized traversed for a locomotive would often have four rails underneath so four drawer sliders for a whole train doesn't seem excessive.

[2ManySpams]

I'm in a similar quandary as to what type of fiddle to build for Pencarrow. It's also a BLT and I don't want to turn the train or locos, just move loco and brake from one end to another. Current thoughts are to just go for a 4-road traverser, with track centres set at 4". The deck would be 16" x 4'8" and probably supported on three runners.

 

No idea if this is best though.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Traversers were used for full sized rolling stock so it certainly isn't a given that a long one will bend. One that bends under the weight of model trains is simply under engineered. A full sized traversed for a locomotive would often have four rails underneath so four drawer sliders for a whole train doesn't seem excessive.

Hi Hesperus,

 

That's good advice and until a previous Poster said that he just mounted them on their sides I couldnt fathom a way around it. Our other boards are pretty heavy duty. The obvious isnt always, well, obvious to me, although I am not all that dim LOL!

 

Thanks....

 

I'm in a similar quandary as to what type of fiddle to build for Pencarrow. It's also a BLT and I don't want to turn the train or locos, just move loco and brake from one end to another. Current thoughts are to just go for a 4-road traverser, with track centres set at 4". The deck would be 16" x 4'8" and probably supported on three runners.

 

No idea if this is best though.

I agree, maybe four runners. I tend to try and over-engineer for most other things, like engineering of old, rather than the modern trend for adequate, yet each carries merits.

 

Hopefully this Thread will help others, who were also 'afraid' to ask.

[flexible_coupling]

You needn't go to the expense of multiple drawer-runners and potentially risk misalignment and poor movement - use two runners (one at each end of the deck), then cut and place as many soaped wooden bearers (or your preferred method of making wood-on-wood movement smooth) in the middle at the same height/matching the underside of the traverser deck. That way you have the z-axis support you need and the guided movement you desire.