NFL - American Football

[Invicta Informant]

11 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Being a full contact sport, the more 'protection' they wear the more invincible they feel.....

Similar story in motor racing. Making the cars safer could in turn encourage riskier overtakes and manoeuvres and complacency in that if they do have an accident they should be able to walk away.

[rockershovel]

6 hours ago, Invicta Informant said:

Similar story in motor racing. Making the cars safer could in turn encourage riskier overtakes and manoeuvres and complacency in that if they do have an accident they should be able to walk away.

I don't believe racers think that way. I never did, when the red mist came down... I've noticed on the speedway pages, reference to the anniversary of the death of Peter Craven which I think sums it up. 

[Ozexpatriate]

9 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

These days, with the NFL having become predominantly a "passing league", QBs - especially classic "pocket passers" - are increasingly dependent on their O line for protection.

These days? It's been that way since the likes of Joe Montana and John Elway in the 80s.

 

9 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

And some of those O lines - or their coaches - demonstrably aren't up to the job against an aggressive pass rushing defence.  That might also be a factor in the prominence in recent years of more mobile QBs like Jackson, Murray, Russell, Mahomes

The pass rush is bigger and faster and harder to defend than it was.

 

The mobile quarterback comes from the college game, where having (in man-on-man) an 'extra' undefended running back (ie the quarterback) is useful. College defences are not as big and fast as the NFL. Russ Wilson and Patrick Mahomes are pocket passers who can scramble when needed - unlike say, Peyton Manning who could not.

 

Those who entered the NFL as "mobile quarterbacks" don't usually last. Examples are Michael Vick, Cam Newton and the poster-boy, Robert Griffin III, who proved his doubters right with injury. Lamar Jackson is athletic. Time will tell if he has staying power or can take a team to the Superbowl.

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Ozexpatriate

[Ian J.]

Vick was finished by his own stupidity in thinking that dog fighting was acceptable. Who knows how long he might have lasted had that not happened. Re ATL QBs, Matt Ryan was never the mobile quarterback though, and he's still feeling those effects in Indy where they haven't been able to protect him for some reason. So far, Mariota is looking reasonable for mobility, but he keeps lunging forwards when finishing scrambles which could lead to injury as it makes him a viable tackling target. Our back up, the rookie Desmond Ridder, hasn't seen any action this regular season yet.

[ejstubbs]

19 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

These days? It's been that way since the likes of Joe Montana and John Elway in the 80s.

 

You're right, bad choice of words on my part.  Perhaps "modern times" would be more appropriate.

 

Mind you, given that the NFL was founded in 1922 (so is 100 years old this year 🎂🍾🥳) one might be able to justify saying "only in the last forty years".  If one felt so inclined...

[rockershovel]

7 hours ago, Ian J. said:

Vick was finished by his own stupidity in thinking that dog fighting was acceptable. Who knows how long he might have lasted had that not happened. Re ATL QBs, Matt Ryan was never the mobile quarterback though, and he's still feeling those effects in Indy where they haven't been able to protect him for some reason. So far, Mariota is looking reasonable for mobility, but he keeps lunging forwards when finishing scrambles which could lead to injury as it makes him a viable tackling target. Our back up, the rookie Desmond Ridder, hasn't seen any action this regular season yet.

I've just looked up Michael Vick, who was previously unknown to me.

 

I'd query your remark about dog-fighting, though. From what I can see, he had previous discipline and legal issues during his time with Falcons;  he spent almost two years in prison and was only released by Falcons near the end of his term (suggesting that they saw at least, the possibility of his return), joined Philadelphia for a six-year career including another Pro Bowl appearance, spent two FURTHER years knocking around the NFL as a free agent for two other teams and finally retired after what many players would regard as a full career. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

I wonder what Mark Twain would have made of the NFL, and football generally. It has always seemed to me quintessentially American, to play on a wider stage than our round-ball game can manage, although figures like Paul Gascoigne and George Best approached it. 

 

Digressing, but not very far, I recently watched a programme on one of the free-view channels called "Pony Excess" about SMU in the early 80s, featuring their alumnus Eric Dickerson (who proved to be a very articulate and interesting character). You couldn't make it up....

 

 

 

[Ozexpatriate]

Regarding Tua, it was announced yesterday that the NFLPA fired the unaffiliated neurologist for 'mistakes made' clearing Tua for the second half last Sunday.

[Ian J.]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I've just looked up Michael Vick, who was previously unknown to me.

 

I'd query your remark about dog-fighting, though. From what I can see, he had previous discipline and legal issues during his time with Falcons;  he spent almost two years in prison and was only released by Falcons near the end of his term (suggesting that they saw at least, the possibility of his return), joined Philadelphia for a six-year career including another Pro Bowl appearance, spent two FURTHER years knocking around the NFL as a free agent for two other teams and finally retired after what many players would regard as a full career. 

 

 

 

I think my point was that Vick could have been a long term mobile QB for the Falcons, but due to the conviction for the dog fighting (perhaps along with other issues as you state), he 'threw' that opportunity away, and instead had a relatively lacklustre career afterwards compared to what it could have been.

[Jeff Smith]

I have plenty of opportunities to watch 'football', in fact I'll probably watch some of the Tampa game tonight.  However I do get frustrated by the whole nature of the game with the QB just executing plays relayed by the coach, there seems to be hardly any initiative allowed.  I know they are pre-set plays but especially with a hand-off pass, the receiver often just runs into a group of defenders....

 

There, that's my soapbox over, I'll say no more.....

[Ozexpatriate]

16 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

I do get frustrated by the whole nature of the game with the QB just executing plays relayed by the coach

Understood, but the QB often changes the play depending on how he sees the defence set up. Better QBs are better at this. Depending on the coach/QB relationship there can be a surprising amount of initiative 'permitted' to the elite QBs.

 

Hand-offs where the running back runs into a wall of defensive linemen are the result of poor offensive blocking or a poor offensive blocking scheme.

[Ian J.]

I'm a relative newcomer to the game, having only started watching it in late 2014, but from what I can see it's relatively difficult to improvise when so much is dependent on pre-trained moves for players, and systems based on those in order to try and 'fool' the opposing team into making the wrong decision about what you're set up to do.

 

What I can see though is that players who can improvise successfully after the snap when things start to evolve rapidly, tend to do better, both visibly on the field, and in their stats.

[Ozexpatriate]

4 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

it's relatively difficult to improvise when so much is dependent on pre-trained moves for players

When plays break down and the QB improvises you can get a lot of penalties like "ineligible receiver downfield" (linemen more than five yards downfield* during an unexpected pass) and, of course, holding penalties.

 

* They are allowed to block more than five yards downfield on a running play.

[Jeff Smith]

Plenty of scoring in last nights Tampa game, but not enough for Tampa, Tom Brady should have retired while on top!

[Jamiel]

Just caught up on the Thursday night NFL game. I may have been a Denver Broncos fan since the 80s, but this was awful football. A game drawn and going to overtime. Sounds exciting?

9-9 score, 3 field goals apiece, the home crowd were leaving in droves at full time unable to endure any more of the drivel that had been served up to them. Two quarterbacks who should have their number’s as expired sell-by dates on their shirts, two coaches who have teams that did not know where to run their plays. Denver have a fantastic defence, but the offense is laughable. I find it hard to believe this coach will last a full year, even if he is Paul Hackett’s son.

[rockershovel]

Just had a fun day at Tottenham watching Green Bay v NY Giants. Very much a Packers crowd! 

 

Exciting game with a "technical" ending which puzzled No 2 Son rather....

[Ian J.]

I watched the NYG vs GB on NFL Game Pass. Shame GB couldn't get the win.

 

In the ATL game against TB, we had a very questionable roughing passer call that pretty much destroyed our comeback that might have coat us the game. I'm not at all happy about that 🤬

[Jeff Smith]

Well, Brady won despite presumably his ongoing divorce settlement on his mind.......

[rockershovel]

13 hours ago, Ian J. said:

I watched the NYG vs GB on NFL Game Pass. Shame GB couldn't get the win.

 

In the ATL game against TB, we had a very questionable roughing passer call that pretty much destroyed our comeback that might have coat us the game. I'm not at all happy about that 🤬

GB didn't get the win because having dominated the first half, they did nothing after the half. Third quarter was unremarkable all round. Fourth quarter was all Giants, apart from the last 2 min when GB drove down the pitch but stalled at the 12. I can't remember the last time I saw a team concede the ball in the red zone like that. 

 

NYG then played 2 QB kneels before attempting to run. Giants are now 4th and long on their own 12 with 1 min plus remaining, played a fake punt and conceded a safety - but the clock is running.

 

NYG kick to GB with about 30 sec left and the clock running. GB needed a quick run to touch (to stop the clock and get some yards) them a Hail Mary to win, but again couldn't execute.

 

GB didn't get the win because NYG were better on the day. 

[Ozexpatriate]

On 09/10/2022 at 15:06, Ian J. said:

In the ATL game against TB, we had a very questionable roughing passer call

When you posted that, I wondered if TB12 was getting 'special' treatment. (That call is all over the web like a rash.)

 

However:

 

The same thing happened in the second quarter on Monday night (KC v. LV) where Derek Carr was strip/sacked, called as "roughing the passer".  KC fans chanted "boos" for the officials until they scored a field goal as time expired before the half.

 

I can't help but wonder after the Tua debacle, officials now have a 'special emphasis' on "roughing the passer" calls. It doesn't help that Teddy Bridgewater (yet another journeyman QB, who was Tua's backup for the Dolphins) was taken off the field after being hit during the Jets game on Sunday. He was ruled out by the new 'ataxia' policy.

 

As Ian Fleming put it:

Quote

Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Ozexpatriate

[Ian J.]

I've just watched the LV@KC game, and I think there's an important difference in the sacks. Jarrett didn't land on top of Brady, but rolled under him first, then in the roll over didn't put any weight on Brady at all. The KC rusher ran into Carr head on and landed on top of him, with only a feeble attempt with his left arm to stabilize himself. Other than that, his full weight landed on Carr. To me, Jarrett's sack was one of the safest I've ever seen.

[rockershovel]

I was interested to see that there was limited availability of tickets for the Wembley game as late as yesterday. Secondary sellers clearing late cancellations, I guess. 

 

Worth bearing in mind for next year. 

[Invicta Informant]

The ending of the Patriots @ Raiders game (follow the link to YouTube). What was New England thinking (if at all)?

 

[Ozexpatriate]

8 hours ago, Invicta Informant said:

The ending of the Patriots @ Raiders game (follow the link to YouTube). What was New England thinking (if at all)?

Of course I got this:

But no matter - I saw the play you mention many times.

 

Bill Belichick is known for coaching "situational football". He wouldn't have been happy. It wasn't "New England thinking" but a player who made a big mistake that people will remember forever. Jakobi Meyers would later say he was 'Trying to be a hero'. Big mistake. I kind of feel bad for him.

[Ian J.]

I've just watched the Pats@Raiders game on NFL GamePass. It looked to me at the time that the Pats players were trying to keep a run game extended. However, it ended in one of the two most likely outcomes: either the play ends up dead; or the ball gets picked off. So it didn't work, at least for the Pats.