shortliner Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 US HO Small space modellers are going to be happy with one of them. Diecast, so it's heavy, but it isn't cheap! http://www.broadway-limited.com/plymouthswitcherho.aspx Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielB Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Oooh, those hopper cars are lovely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 The H2a Hoppers are nice, but it is the M1a/M1b and the Centipedes that are going to be the real wallet killers. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 That's something I find weird about US modellers, "its a Consolidation 2-8-0". So what is the prototype? Can you imagine Hornby or Bachmann UK producing a new loco and just referring to it as a 2-8-0? Edit: further research show it is freelance, using various bits from other locos they produce. What a waste of time. Why not put the effort into producing something real, even if you then produce it in loads of spurious colours Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigZ Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 That's something I find weird about US modellers, "its a Consolidation 2-8-0". So what is the prototype? Can you imagine Hornby or Bachmann UK producing a new loco and just referring to it as a 2-8-0? Edit: further research show it is freelance, using various bits from other locos they produce. What a waste of time. Why not put the effort into producing something real, even if you then produce it in loads of spurious colours Well, not ALL of us like stuff like that. This reminds me of Exactrail's depressed center flat - it's a mash up of various prototype details. Make it like a broken clock where it will be right twice a day...instead of never right. I suspect the BLI won't be a great seller but one nevers knows. I was looking at the BLI Consol for possibly a starting point for a NYO&W W2 class...then the distinctive PRR cab stopped me cold. Not worth the effort of changing if the construction is anything like their actual PRR H10 Consols...the drive of which is apparently under the generic engine. And it's a good base - the H10 is a very smooth runner and a good puller to boot. I'm impressed with mine, well apart from the Paragon 2 decoder. If they'd offered a non sound version I'd have done that and put in a Tsunami or a WOW... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 That's something I find weird about US modellers, "its a Consolidation 2-8-0". So what is the prototype? Can you imagine Hornby or Bachmann UK producing a new loco and just referring to it as a 2-8-0? Edit: further research show it is freelance, using various bits from other locos they produce. What a waste of time. Why not put the effort into producing something real, even if you then produce it in loads of spurious colours Because, for a loco like that, you either have to create a reasonably generic loco or you have to create one that is specific to one particular road (and possibly only some of the locos of that type used by that road). The only relatively standard locos that were used by multiple roads were the USRA designs and even they varied depending on road, age (i.e. whether they had been modified by that road), and whether they were a real USRA loco or a copy. Most of the locos came from one of a very small number of builders, so creating a relativel generic Baldwin (or Alco) and allowing the modellers who care to add/modify the details is far more cost effective than creating a road-specific loco. The exceptions are the iconic locos like the UP Big Boys. In the UK, the loco is specific to a particular railway, and cam from that railway's shops, where in the US a lot of railroads used very similar locos, typically sourced from one of the big manufacturers. Only a few railroads had shops that could build locos from scratch (e.g. the PRR Juniata shops). Even road-specific locos like the PRR's K4s pacific had changes over their lifetime (the most visible being the pilot). Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 On a freelance model the only thing that will ever be inaccurate will be the paint and lettering, unless you use fictitious road names. If you bring out a version for the Undec RR you have a model nobody can nitpick. If, say, they'd gone to Scranton or North Conway and measured up either of the MEC 2-8-0s and modeled that engine, there would have been all sorts of negative comments when the model appeared. Very smart move by Broadway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Because, for a loco like that, you either have to create a reasonably generic loco or you have to create one that is specific to one particular road (and possibly only some of the locos of that type used by that road). The only relatively standard locos that were used by multiple roads were the USRA designs and even they varied depending on road, age (i.e. whether they had been modified by that road), and whether they were a real USRA loco or a copy. Most of the locos came from one of a very small number of builders, so creating a relativel generic Baldwin (or Alco) and allowing the modellers who care to add/modify the details is far more cost effective than creating a road-specific loco. The exceptions are the iconic locos like the UP Big Boys. In the UK, the loco is specific to a particular railway, and cam from that railway's shops, where in the US a lot of railroads used very similar locos, typically sourced from one of the big manufacturers. Only a few railroads had shops that could build locos from scratch (e.g. the PRR Juniata shops). Even road-specific locos like the PRR's K4s pacific had changes over their lifetime (the most visible being the pilot). Adrian A model of a specific proto US loco is no more or less limiting than a model of a specific UK proto loco and while the range of available prototypes to choose from might be bigger, so is the market. You're kinda contradicting yourself, RRs buying locos from a few main manufacturers should actually make the situation easier than that of the UK, you produce the loco and with clever use of mould slides etc put the proto-specific details for the road, period or individual loco on, in the same way as is done with diesels, for example the new Athearn GP38/40 range. With the exception of small industrial locos and the GCR Class 8Ks, there are no pre-BR locos that were owned by multiple contemporary companies, (I've probably missed some!) Thus the only livery variations are basically pre and post grouping companies and BR, depending on the lifespan of the loco. On a freelance model the only thing that will ever be inaccurate will be the paint and lettering, unless you use fictitious road names. If you bring out a version for the Undec RR you have a model nobody can nitpick. If, say, they'd gone to Scranton or North Conway and measured up either of the MEC 2-8-0s and modeled that engine, there would have been all sorts of negative comments when the model appeared. Very smart move by Broadway. Negative comments because people would find fault with their representation of a specific MEC prototype, or because people would find fault with a a MEC loco in other paint, or because they had picked a MEC loco over their favourite loco? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 A heck of a lot of US model railroads use a fictitious RR company name, which then justifies buying freelanced or specific models as extras or cast-offs from the major suppliers. That's quite reasonable, because, along with the few big guys, there were hundreds of smaller local area railroads, which did much the same in full size. (No equivalent of British Railways in the US). Unless there were/are a matching range of short run (and expensive) brass models available, its near to impossible to model the typical steam roster scope of an actual US railroad from RTR examples. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I was attempting a spot of humour in justifying re their choice of freelance subject. Modelers are a bit prone to complaining about probably all of the above (choice, accuracy, bogus lettering etc). On a more serious note, the manufacturers are a bit stymied when it comes to choosing prototypes, for all the reasons Adrian mentioned. There were resemblances between roads who favoured the same builder but if you want a close match to a specific engine then there's work involved. The question becomes "how much work" and, per Craig's observations, where do you draw the line or what compromises do you accept? Otherwise Andy's point is pretty much correct. In the case of the MEC, you've got the hand-me-down 0-8-0 they got from the B&M (which I think only ever worked at Waterville), the USRA 0-6-0 (which was not really typical of MEC steam switchers) and with a few mods the USRA light 2-8-2 (which also wasn't really the signature MEC 2-8-2.) Anything else RTR really isn't that accurate, moving some appliances around gets you a passing resemblance but that's about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 A model of a specific proto US loco is no more or less limiting than a model of a specific UK proto loco and while the range of available prototypes to choose from might be bigger, so is the market. You're kinda contradicting yourself, RRs buying locos from a few main manufacturers should actually make the situation easier than that of the UK, you produce the loco and with clever use of mould slides etc put the proto-specific details for the road, period or individual loco on, in the same way as is done with diesels, for example the new Athearn GP38/40 range. With the exception of small industrial locos and the GCR Class 8Ks, there are no pre-BR locos that were owned by multiple contemporary companies, (I've probably missed some!) Thus the only livery variations are basically pre and post grouping companies and BR, depending on the lifespan of the loco. But the UK steam market basically covers 5 railways (the big four + BR) with few people modelling the predecessor railways. In the US you could start with the PRR, NYC, C&O, B&O, and RDG and you still wouldn't have gotten out of a very small portion of the country, or even covered all the railroads in that area. Outside of the USRA locos (with the caveats I gave above) there are relatively few locos that were used by multiple companies, but there were many similar locos that were bought by multiple companies with road-specific details. And by similar, I don't mean the same loco with minor differences like the diesels you mention. By similar I mean the same basic wheelbase, similar sized wheels, similar sized boilers, and similar valve gear. Almost all other details would be different, both in style and positioning, and that is on contemporary locos from the same builder. It is like suggesting that you could do all the GWR 4-6-0s with a single mould and a clever use of mould slides (and yes, I know some people would say you could ). Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 That Pymouth Switcher looks tasty BUT I'll bet the price will be a killer... steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Unless there were/are a matching range of short run (and expensive) brass models available, its near to impossible to model the typical steam roster scope of an actual US railroad from RTR examples. Andy Well, wasting your model development budget on a freelance loco isn't going to help the situation! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 But the UK steam market basically covers 5 railways (the big four + BR) with few people modelling the predecessor railways. In the US you could start with the PRR, NYC, C&O, B&O, and RDG and you still wouldn't have gotten out of a very small portion of the country, or even covered all the railroads in that area. Outside of the USRA locos (with the caveats I gave above) there are relatively few locos that were used by multiple companies, but there were many similar locos that were bought by multiple companies with road-specific details. And by similar, I don't mean the same loco with minor differences like the diesels you mention. By similar I mean the same basic wheelbase, similar sized wheels, similar sized boilers, and similar valve gear. Almost all other details would be different, both in style and positioning, and that is on contemporary locos from the same builder. It is like suggesting that you could do all the GWR 4-6-0s with a single mould and a clever use of mould slides (and yes, I know some people would say you could ). Adrian Look as Europe as a whole, to compare with the US. At least as many 'roads' with their own designs and far more available as models. I don't know how the model market volume compares, mind you. Also, a large amount of the locos on the big four, and even BR, were pre-grouping designs, so while there might be only 5 railways, there's a lot of designs per railway. In the last 10 years of so, the modeller has had an increasing number of these made available to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Oddly enough we have been here before, and in brass: http://http://www.brasstrains.com/classic/Product/Detail/032677/HO-WMC-Westside-Freelance-2-10-0-The-Brute Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Oddly enough we have been here before, and in brass: http://www.brasstrains.com/classic/Product/Detail/032677/HO-WMC-Westside-Freelance-2-10-0-The-Brute That makes even less sense! Just done a rough count up. There's about 80 US steam loco types recently available RTR (not including brass) , with a fair few of them being generic 'type's and some being pretty basic like the Lifelike locos. There's about 90 UK RTR locos of specified prototypes and a few basic ones like the Hornby trainset saddle tank. Having done that, I'm not sure what it says. Obviously steam lasted later in the UK, which will have some impact. In the US, you may be able to fill some of the gaps with brass, but some is pretty dated but hasn't got cheaper. In the UK you can pretty much fill any gap with a kit, (although some may be of varying quality). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 You’re right there, the kit situation in the ‘States really sucks (there are some good ones but you’ve got to really search for them). Either mod to your railroad (easier with modern diesels and quite popular) or “ignorance is bliss”..... The modern scene is much easier to model with consists of diesels from all other the country at the moment - I saw a BC Rail locomotive in Newark recently. I took this in 2008 on the southern BNSF Transcon in Arizona - it used to be quite rare - even rarer (sic) seeing a NS as the lead locomotive on a BNSF mainline: Taken from moving car on I40 between Holbrook and Winslow. Btw here is a maker of HOn3 that you may not have heard of: http://blackstonemodels.com/loco/ I haven’t seen any in person but they do appear to be made with fidelity but also expensive... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I checked my bible of N&W coal cars*, and the H2A cars were a development of the H2 cars (obviously) with 13500 built between 1948 and 1956.Compare that to the 1500 H2 cars built in 1941. *Norfolk and Western Coal Cars from 1881 to 1998, Andrew Dow, TLC Publishing 1998, ISBN 1-883089-36-0. It is a very interesting book if you are modelling coal traffic on the N&W or NS. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Btw here is a maker of HOn3 that you may not have heard of: http://blackstonemodels.com/loco/ I haven’t seen any in person but they do appear to be made with fidelity but also expensive... I've seen some of their cars and they do look really nice. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Well, wasting your model development budget on a freelance loco isn't going to help the situation! Budget??? We don't need no steenking budget!!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 While drifting off-topic a bit, the kit scene has never been particularly vibrant in the US, at least not in the last thirty or forty years. Bowser, Mantua and MDC were probably the dominant players, Cary offered cast body shells to fit Mantua chassis and that was really about it as far as mainstream HO standard gauge went. Arbour Models appeared in the 70s and about the best that can be said for them (from internet research) is that they helped the decline of the market gather pace. I recall a number of articles in RMC in the late 70s/80s describing the creation of a freelance motive power stud using the available kits, but when it comes to specific real railroads for the most part it's always been about having to make do to create something that might resemble your desired prototype but only from a distance. With the decline of kits, the RTR stuff becomes fodder for modifications, but the game gets expensive when you take the current offerings as a start point. The MSRP for the new 2-8-0 is apparently $449, making it an unlikely candidate for chopping and changing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted October 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 23, 2014 I've seen some of their cars and they do look really nice. Adrian Another long term project, I pick up a car or two over here once every few months and a loco every year or two since they introduced their models. Each loco they release is built to represent a particular real loco at a set time. They are beautiful models but expensive. I have pre ordered the K36 and K28 Mikados but hope that they don't both arrive at the same time!! Coming a bit more back on topic, I have a few of the BLI diesels and whilst they did get some criticism I have made various modification to them using the large range of detailing bits. A friend has altered one of the steamers to make it more road specific by scratch building some of the details although again many are available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 That Pymouth Switcher looks tasty BUT I'll bet the price will be a killer... steve Steve - see the link above the pickie for roadvnames - MSRP $149.00! - my wallet is squealing in pain! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVSNE Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 First of all, thanks for pointing the "non-PRR" 2-8-0 out - I somehow missed it. Brilliant marketing move by BLI - especially when one considers the runaway success of the Bachmann "generic" 2-8-0 when it was introduced more than 15 years ago. I'm going to look very closely at these since my "layout quality" Central Vermont 2-8-0s, redetailed from the Bachmann engines, are starting to show their age (many having been in service on my layout for more than a decade). So, I need to replace them. To answer one of the earlier posters concerns - 1. Why a "generic" 2-8-0 - this has covered well in this thread, but the answer is there is no "standard" 2-8-0 but the 2-8-0 was either #1 or #2 in total locomotives built in the US by wheel type so every railroad had one, or more. And most of them had some variations in the design but they all "kinda looked the same." At least in basic dimensions. In a way, the railroad's chief mechanical officer called up a builder (Alco, Baldwin or whomever - depending on the railroad's preference, typically most railroads were either Alco customers, or Baldwin customers, or whomever customers, but rarely bought from more than one...) and based on the needs of the railroad ordered a "standard" 2-8-0 with either 57" or 63" drivers from that builder. Then they customized it with various appliances and the like. These "standard" engines were not like the USRA locomotives - all of which were built and delivered to the same set of parameters. 2. A minor thing, and while I agree "Consolidation 2-8-0" is redundant, not every railroad referred to a specific wheel arrangement using the same nickname. So if I market a 4-8-4 and simply refer to it as a "Northern" what about those roads that didn't call a 4-8-4 a "Northern" but instead called it a "Dixie?" <g> Marty Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 . So if I market a 4-8-4 and simply refer to it as a "Northern" what about those roads that didn't call a 4-8-4 a "Northern" but instead called it a "Dixie?" <g> Or a Niagara... Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.