KalKat Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Hi, As above are they any use as stand for immediate use or would they be better used for building 'cut 'n' shuts' ? I ask as I am currently tidying the loft prior to beginning my layout, and have found that I have rather more of these than I thought! Emma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 They are very good, still stand the test of time and can be made into very good models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KalKat Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Thanks Black Rat. I have made and detailed some of these, and I agree. I've been looking at SEMG's coaching list and it just strikes me that for the BR(S) Central Section London/Brighton type lines, there weren't too many of them. As Kitmaster only produced three types I'm wondering about selling some of them if it's worthwhile. If not - it'll be out with the razor saw Emma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 There are actually four different Kitmaster coaches BSK, CK, SK (also can be SO) and RF (which can be FK or FO with little modification). The main problem is the odd spacing of the CK windows. BR standardisation allows many variations to be made by 'cut 'n' shut'. One of the simplest is a BG from two BSKs. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70799-kitmaster-fk-coach-kitbash/ http://www.polytechforum.com/uk-trains/kitmaster-coaches-how-good-were-they-compared-to-others-53923-.htm I don't understand the comment in the second list re price - the kits were only 6/6d IIRC (The RF was a bit dearer as it had an interior). EDIT Should be RFO - Kitmaster called it a Restaurant First. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted October 28, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2014 Back in the early '60s, the long-defunct Model Railway Constructor had some articles about cutting & shutting Kitmaster Mk1s - a BCK (Brake Compo) and a 4BEP/CEP unit were among the vehicles featured. In the '70s, due to the lack of available Kitmasters, I applied the MRC's guidance to Triang/Hornby Mk1s and created several different types with reasonable success. I even flush glazed them.... never again! As Il Grifone says, Kitmaster produced 4 coach body styles - CK (with some slight inaccuracies in window spacing), SK/SO, BSK and RFO (restaurant 1st open) which is probably the rarest of all! The RFO was an odd choice as the RFOs normally ran paired with either a RU or RB, the latter vehicle providing the essential kitchen facilities. I understand that when Triang originally produced their scale length Mk1s, flush glazing was considered but abandoned on grounds of cost. Those Kitmasters really were ahead of their time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KalKat Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Thanks for the answers/information. I had forgotten about the RFO.... there's at least two up there! Emma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I fit Peco bearing cups to mine with plain axles and metal wheelsets (Pinpoints would be freer running and allow longer trains for those with the space, but five coaches is all I have room for) and three point bogie suspension. I had a session about 12 months ago cutting and shutting, removing moulding lines, sorting the incorrect channel solebars etc. etc. The result was yet more unfinished projects.... In the meantime, there are 5 more Hachette SK/SOs.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 The Kitmaster Mk.1 glazing has never really been bettered, although Bachmann have arguably matched it, and Coopercraft have run it close. I still buy the odd Kitmaster Mk.1, built or unbuilt, to go with the Coopercrafts and Bachmann variants that I've acquired over the years. They are still eminently usable and will take a good degree of upgrades for P4 running. Coopercraft Mk.1s are 21st-century Kitmasters. They are still available, albeit as separate components, from the current owner (of whom the less said, the better), but the roof moulding is out of production. A substitute Mk.1 roof is available from MJT/Dart Castings, albeit as an aluminium extrusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Given that Kitmaster got flush glazing right as long ago as 1960, it speaks volumes that so few manufacturers have failed to do so subsequently. At least it leaves some modelling still to be done! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 The Kitmaster Mk.1 glazing has never really been bettered, although Bachmann have arguably matched it, and Coopercraft have run it close. I still buy the odd Kitmaster Mk.1, built or unbuilt, to go with the Coopercrafts and Bachmann variants that I've acquired over the years. They are still eminently usable and will take a good degree of upgrades for P4 running. Coopercraft Mk.1s are 21st-century Kitmasters. They are still available, albeit as separate components, from the current owner (of whom the less said, the better), but the roof moulding is out of production. A substitute Mk.1 roof is available from MJT/Dart Castings, albeit as an aluminium extrusion. I gather that the advent of the Bachmann coaches put paid to planned extensions to the Cooper-craft* range. I haven't tried it, (plenty of Kitmaster parts!), but would a Tri-ang/Hornby or Hachette roof fit? * They cost roughly the same, but the Bachmann is complete and ready to go. Replica parts are still available from their website. I was going to get one of their reasonably priced BGs, but the purchase of a cheap job lot of Kitmaster parts and the decision that, being a standard design, all the coaches should be the same make changed that idea. (There are a few Triang/Hornby and Lima in a box now surplus to requirements - including a pair of the neatly finished flush glazed Hornby ones. It's a pity that, when Tri-ang designed their Mk I, they read their drawing wrongly and made the windows too deep. IMHO the best R-T-R flush glazing is to be found on a Dublo Mk I, but they are too short and the bogies leave something to be desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Given that Kitmaster got flush glazing right as long ago as 1960, it speaks volumes that so few manufacturers have failed to do so subsequently. At least it leaves some modelling still to be done! Chris The point was that you were the manufacturer, or at least the assembler; imagine how much it would cost if they had to pay someone else to put individual panes in..(and how many would fall out in transit due to adhesive-related issues) They were nice kits to put together, though in hindsight, giving one to an 8-year-old wasn't the best idea, dad. I think I may have still got that one, with all the windows matching the finish on the toilet one.. I wonder if someone does replacements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 .... all the windows matching the finish on the toilet one.. I wonder if someone does replacements? The Kitmaster Collectors' Club may have glazing available as spares....or you can order glazing from Coopercraft (assuming that the owner notices you've ordered something)..., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted October 29, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2014 The Kitmaster Mk.1 glazing has never really been bettered, although Bachmann have arguably matched it, and Coopercraft have run it close. I still buy the odd Kitmaster Mk.1, built or unbuilt, to go with the Coopercrafts and Bachmann variants that I've acquired over the years. They are still eminently usable and will take a good degree of upgrades for P4 running. Coopercraft Mk.1s are 21st-century Kitmasters. They are still available, albeit as separate components, from the current owner (of whom the less said, the better), but the roof moulding is out of production. A substitute Mk.1 roof is available from MJT/Dart Castings, albeit as an aluminium extrusion. Southern Pride produce a big range of Mk1 kits - AFAIK their roof moulding is available as a spare. Another possibility is DC Kits if you don't fancy an aluminium roof (it wouldn't be my first choice!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted October 29, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2014 I have obtained a few poorly made examples of the Kitmaster coaches, most of the windows have been recoverable. I did try to fit them to the Hornby Dublo/Wrenn Mk 1 horsebox but the only ones that were an exact fit were the door windows, the toilet compartment windows were to tall and narrow to fit the horsebox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 The Kitmaster CK was not so much inaccurate as based on a one-off prototype CK which had only three first class compartments and four second/third class compartments, hence the 'odd' window spacing. I think the coach was numbered S 15000 from memory but am happy to be shot down in flames if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 The Kitmaster CK was not so much inaccurate as based on a one-off prototype CK which had only three first class compartments and four second/third class compartments, hence the 'odd' window spacing. I think the coach was numbered S 15000 from memory but am happy to be shot down in flames if I'm wrong. I considered that too, but the spacing should still be uniform, whereas they are all different. The second class (third originally, but only the name was changed - apart from some SR coaches for 'boat' trains*) compartments are only slightly out but the firsts are all over the place. (It's some time since I handled one, so I forget the exact figures, but IIRC the corridor side is worse, but even the compartment side is uneven and the Peco interior has non-uniform compartments to match). I'll have to dig one out and look. * AFAIK the only difference here was '2' on the doors. EDIT There was an extra door in tne middle otherwise the same. http://www.easybuildcoaches.co.uk/TOP/DRAWINGS/DR%2010.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locomad Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I reckon well built one of the best coaches ever produced I've a set of 6 red ones even unpainted they look very good. Peco i think produced a paper sheet which cut out provided a inner for such coaches add a few airfix seated passengers these look most realistic. They stand the test of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted October 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2014 They stand the test of time As long as you didn't use the Kitmaster glue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosiesBoss Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 G'day, KalKat, I've had lots of fun kitbashing sad Kitmaster wrecks into FKs. They're not perfectly accurate, but look the part in their respective rakes. Here's a link to a description of my project, as well as helpful hints from other experienced modellers: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70799-kitmaster-fk-coach-kitbash/ Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I reckon well built one of the best coaches ever produced I've a set of 6 red ones even unpainted they look very good. Peco i think produced a paper sheet which cut out provided a inner for such coaches add a few airfix seated passengers these look most realistic. They stand the test of time The plastic was quite a reasonable match for the prototype colour. Peco did (until quite recently I believe?) BSK, CK, SK and SO interiors (I have good stocks and they turn up frequently on eBay.) They seat colour is a trifle light but easily darkened a little. I couldn't be bothered to fit the luggage racks, as they should be netting and are out of sight anyway. As long as you didn't use the Kitmaster glue. Unopened, they're a valuable collector's item now! It's just as well it's adhesive powers left something to be desired, as it enables them to be easily dismantled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted November 1, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2014 I considered that too, but the spacing should still be uniform, whereas they are all different. The second class (third originally, but only the name was changed - apart from some SR coaches for 'boat' trains*) compartments are only slightly out but the firsts are all over the place. (It's some time since I handled one, so I forget the exact figures, but IIRC the corridor side is worse, but even the compartment side is uneven and the Peco interior has non-uniform compartments to match). I'll have to dig one out and look. * AFAIK the only difference here was '2' on the doors. the parkin mk1 book explains the non-standard compt. spacing once 15000 was modified into a 'standard' CK. initially it had (looking at toilet side): door, toilet, 3rd compt., 3rd compt., 1st compt, door, 3rd open bay, 3rd open bay, 1st open bay, 1st open bay, toilet, door. the corridor side layout of doors/windows differed from the standard in not having a door w/small windows in the 'open' section the 3rd compts. were 6'2", 3rd open bays 6'7" and 1st class bits 7'2". when rebuilt into standard form - door, toilet, 3 x 3rd compts, door, 4 x 1st compts., toilet, door - this meant the compt sizes differered from normal in that one 3rd was 7'2" and 2 x 1st were only 6'7" (the compts either side of the centre door) just as i was looking for bodyside photos, Google threw this thread up on RMWeb: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76418-s15000-mk1-protype-ck-under-frame-details/ it mentions the kitmaster CK being more correct for 15000, but with the spacings the wrong way round (quoting mark54): "the wrong compartments have the wider spacing. On the Kitmaster coach the two wider 1st class compartments are adjacent to the centre vestibule, not the ones adjacent to the toilet as on S15000. Likewise the wider 2nd class Kitmaster compartment is adjacent to the toilet and not to the centre vestibule as on S15000." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Unfortunately, I don't have the Parkin book and neither do Essex libraries. I believe I'm correct in saying that the large windows should be directly opposite each other and on the Kitmaster CK they aren't. It also lacks the 'stretcher' window in the centre 2nd/3rd compartment (as does S15000 - it looks like they had a drawing of this coach, but somewhere it got mixed up). IIRC all the Kitmaster compartments are different sizes, but it is some time since the Kitmaster coach project got sidelined...... I'll continue converting all mine to the standard layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 ....in hindsight, giving one to an 8-year-old wasn't the best idea, dad. I think I may have still got that one, with all the windows matching the finish on the toilet one.... Tina Turner wrote a song about this many years later. It was called "Steamy Windows". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Hi, Having been reading this topic i've just been and had a look in my workshop and dug out a couple of coaches - one is an old Kitmaster CK and the other is an unfinished rebuild from Hornby Mk1 parts to produce a model of the prototype CK S15000 - this was started several years ago and is on my 'to finish' list along with several other coach rebuilds such as a Bullion Van and the Swindon Works built first 'integral' coach - the prototype of the Mk2. The prototype CK has been completed as far as construction of the basic bodyshell goes. This was done with reference to drawings and information in Keith Parkins book. If its of any interest to anyone i'll photograph the old Kitmaster and my prototype CK and post them either tonight or tomorrow morning - let me know if its of interest. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted November 1, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2014 They were nice kits to put together, though in hindsight, giving one to an 8-year-old wasn't the best idea, dad. I think I may have still got that one, with all the windows matching the finish on the toilet one.. I wonder if someone does replacements? Why not build it as a TU (Toilet Unclassified), experimental 100+ cubicle coach designed for footy/rugby specials and marshalled next to the buffet car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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