Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[Clive Mortimore]

Those have potential. I know a USA light 2-10-2 was used as the basis of a conversion for the never built big Baldwin by mr. King. I might have to look out for something suitable at the next train meet I am at. It has got me thinking.

Richard

HI Richard

 

Thanks for the warning. :scared: :scared:

 

There must be a HO 2-6-0 RTR that could be worked on to represent a GCR Yankie loco.

[Regularity]

The Bachmann model might be of use, but it would require quite a bit of work.

[richard i]

That might be true, but then most pre grouping projects require “quite a bit of work” if there is a kit it is probably old and out of production, so has to be sought second hand and then brought up to scratch. If not then scratch building or cad drawing is needed to produce it and either make own frames or find a suitable donor chassis. The limited r-t-r in pre grouping colours is mostly “as preserved” so has details which need addressing, so having to muck around with a ho 2-6-0 from USA seems to fit that bill squarely in the middle.

And that’s all before we get started on finding drawings, looking in old mags, collecting books, works drawings at NRM. (Or is that just RM now?) I don’t think I know of a drawing for the mogul.

We will see.

Richard

[Denbridge]

That might be true, but then most pre grouping projects require “quite a bit of work” if there is a kit it is probably old and out of production, so has to be sought second hand and then brought up to scratch. If not then scratch building or cad drawing is needed to produce it and either make own frames or find a suitable donor chassis. The limited r-t-r in pre grouping colours is mostly “as preserved” so has details which need addressing, so having to muck around with a ho 2-6-0 from USA seems to fit that bill squarely in the middle.

And that’s all before we get started on finding drawings, looking in old mags, collecting books, works drawings at NRM. (Or is that just RM now?) I don’t think I know of a drawing for the mogul.

We will see.

Richard

Tim Watson built a beautiful 2mm scale GNR 2.6.0 . I assume drawings were available. There have been several others in both 4 & 7mm scales. I doubt you could use a 3.5mm model for anything remotely accurate in 4mm.

[richard i]

Looked on line at pics, possible to do, but how close is it for wheel size and spacing. A cleverer person than me could do an overlay of a photo of one on the photo of the other. Also I done have that skill.

[richard i]

Have almost finished the conversion of my Conrail gp40 to a Pennsylvania railroad gp38. To my untrained eye the only really obvious difference for n gauge viewing is a big box on the right hand side of bonnet. When I say big I mean 6mm by 3mm by 3mm. It is therapeutic doing these quick impressionist models where I do not know enough to worry about a small error. I did make sure the number is right.

I am sure other can point out differences in the fans being open or flat or raised or different diameter but it works for me.

The mogul conversion would be a halfway house as the end result would have to be right.......or as close as pre grouping information can get me.

Richard

[richard i]

Tim Watson built a beautiful 2mm scale GNR 2.6.0 . I assume drawings were available. There have been several others in both 4 & 7mm scales. I doubt you could use a 3.5mm model for anything remotely accurate in 4mm.

Why does my brain take that to be a challenge?

I can hear my two friends saying go on too.

[Regularity]

Your biggest problem may turn out to be with the wheel diameter and spacing: a large mogul in H0 may work as a donor for an 00 model, or there may have to be a lot of compromises.

Next on the list will come cylinders and valve chests, followed by removing outside valve gear.

 

You need to get a reasonably accurate 4mm scale outline (such as a weight diagram) and see how it compares with H0 models, assuming you can find them.

[Clive Mortimore]

Why does my brain take that to be a challenge?

I can hear my two friends saying go on too.

Hi Richie Rick, Dick  Sir

 

I have had a quick look at the yankie GCR locos, this is only photo I could find on line, and suitable models available, which are not that many. I have found this https://www.modelrollercoasterhq.com/index.php/home-vintage-trains/Roundhouse-84776-Canadian-National-2-6-0-Mogul-Locomotive-HO-Scale-p64919701 to be the closest.  It will need a new chimney, dome, cab, running plate and pony wheels. Railroad do another vintage 2-6-0 but that has a tapered firebox. The Bachmann mogul is a later design of an Alco machine.

 

There doesn't seem to be the same want of accuracy with US older steam locos as there is with their diesels.  

[richard i]

Thanks Clive,

I think bashing from the Alco might be easier as the cylinders and slide bars are right. The front end looks reasonable and I find altering body work and cabs simpler to do than the downstairs gubbins.

Also I found one for ten bucks cheaper than the older one. ...Simon you are right it does depend on the relationship between wheels and size of wheel. I will hunt a weight diagram.

You are also correct Clive there are really not that many photos out there of them.

Richard

[richard i]

I’ve just realize this has hit 50 pages. With 46000 visits, that is 9200 visits per page! There are only 25 comments per page. 360 views per comment.

No idea where this is heading, just like numbers and find it interesting what they are telling us.

Richard

Edited November 29, 2018 by richard i

[richard i]

Conversion complete.

Just needs weathering. Ignore the white around the box on the steps, it is just the glue drying.

Thought we needed a photo. Only got brake van, sorry caboose, to repaint in nickel plate colours.

[Clive Mortimore]

Conversion complete.

B93381B1-A8C3-4FD7-AFFD-B5F72DAB0069.jpeg

Just needs weathering. Ignore the white around the box on the steps, it is just the glue drying.

Thought we needed a photo. Only got brake van, sorry caboose, to repaint in nickel plate colours.

Now you are into US diesels, have a look at Michael Eby's website for drawings. He use to have a section for other peoples drawings and I contributed while he was hosting other peoples drawings.

[richard i]

Quick research done.

Drawing found.

Photo for reference.

The dimensions of the Alco Bachmann made.

And the model

Also comes in a set.

However wheel spacing wrong, cylinders wrong and slidebars wrong. Wheels could be good. Ho 19mm and gcr was 5ft so need 20mm wheels.

This one is closer on wheel spacing and cylinders but slide bars wrong. Wheel size unknown.

Most closely matching is this brass offering, but what of the price? Or availability?

On30 might be the way to go, ignore the body it is o gauge but the chassis runs on ho/oo track. But then lost chance to use smokebox boiler etc.

Food for thought.

Richard

[richard i]

Now you are into US diesels, have a look at Michael Eby's website for drawings. He use to have a section for other peoples drawings and I contributed while he was hosting other peoples drawings.

By chance I had stumbled upon this and used it to work out what I needed.

Also steady on about getting into USA diesels I have one and that’s enough. I might get one electric and a mallet steam loco and then I am done. A few more boxcars perhaps three more carriages. Strictly limited you understand.

Richard

[Regularity]

For 5’ drivers in 4mm scale, you need a prototype with 5’8½” driving wheels as the basis for an H0 model.

 

For the period moguls were popular in North America, that may be difficult to find.

[richard i]

For 5’ drivers in 4mm scale, you need a prototype with 5’8½” driving wheels as the basis for an H0 model.

For the period moguls were popular in North America, that may be difficult to find.

They normally had 5’6” drivers hence the 1mm difference Bachmann ho to what I would need. But might be price worth paying to get the rest of the chassis.

[Regularity]

It all depends on how close you want things to be. For example, the B&M B15 moguls had 63” drivers which work out as 4” under the required diameter for a 4mm scale model, ending up as 56”. However it was a reasonably common loco on that road (140 built) so finding a model might be straight forward.

Most Moguls were seen as freight engines in North America, with drivers of 56”, 60” or 63” diameter. If you can find one based on 66”, that would be within tyre-turning tolerances.

You may wish to ask on the USA & Canadian part of the board, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/155-usa-canadian-railroads/

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Richard

 

I still feel the Roundhouse model is the best to convert.

 

Its wheel size and wheel base are near perfect, it has the right type of cylinders, its boiler is possibly a tad high but not enough to notice. The front end needs some attention, new pony truck wheels, shorter smokebox, new smokebox door, buffer beam etc. New cab, safety valves, dome and chimney.

 

I rescaled the side on photo to 122.5mm (5 inches, dimension from this page) . I then rescaled the drawing you posted, using the rail to buffer height of 14mm as my datum. Drew an outline and cleaned that up. Superimposed the outline over the model photo, not the most accurate method but I hope you see where I am coming from.

 

The Bachmann Alco has the wrong wheelbase, and the body is no where near a match in my mind.

 

 

I printed the outline drawing and the wheels are 21mm diameter.

[Clive Mortimore]

I over laid the GCR drawing on a side on photo of the Bachmann Alco.

 

[Regularity]

I still feel the Roundhouse model is the best to convert.

 

I’m not saying it isn’t - it certainly looks the better option.

Up to Richard to think about the compromises necessary, and if there they are acceptable deviations from an exact model.

There is “near enough”, which looks right even if it fails to precisely match the prototype, and there is “nowhere near enough”, where you don’t even need a ruler to know that something isn’t right.

I printed the outline drawing and the wheels are 21mm diameter.

That’s slightly worrying, suggesting that you may not have rescaled it correctly, as it clearly states that the wheels are 5’min diameter, and whilst I haven’t formally studied maths since 1984, 4mmx5 = 20mm.

You appear to have printed out an outline that is 5% oversize.

[Clive Mortimore]

I’m not saying it isn’t - it certainly looks the better option.

Up to Richard to think about the compromises necessary, and if there they are acceptable deviations from an exact model.

There is “near enough”, which looks right even if it fails to precisely match the prototype, and there is “nowhere near enough”, where you don’t even need a ruler to know that something isn’t right.

That’s slightly worrying, suggesting that you may not have rescaled it correctly, as it clearly states that the wheels are 5’min diameter, and whilst I haven’t formally studied maths since 1984, 4mmx5 = 20mm.

You appear to have printed out an outline that is 5% oversize.

Simon

 

Can I suggest you do a similar exercise to see how close another model is.

 

For an accurate model scratchbuilding is the only option, as Richard has done so in the past he may chose that route.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

Another thing the wheels in the drawing are not 100% round, they are oval.

[Regularity]

Another thing the wheels in the drawing are not 100% round, they are oval.

One reason why I wasn’t using it.

[Clive Mortimore]

So what are you going to use?

 

If Richard and I were able to meet up regularly as we use to we would go over things together. We have been able to help each other quite a bit over the years. Now owing to us not living near each other we try to use the internet to share ideas. The sketch was to show Richard that the Roundhouse model MIGHT be a better option than the Bachmann one. It is not a scale drawing.

 

Now, Simon,  I ask again what are you going use as you seem to have a better answer?