Hornby 2015 Announcements now made

[Coryton]

Parcels coach, parcels van, baggage van, Baggage Gangwayed, Full Brake............... I am pretty sure we all know what Hornby is referring to. My interest in particular is coaching stock but to be honest I never use the 'official' codes. 

 

From the picture yes. But if someone said that Hornby were making a Mk 1 Parcels Coach I would have probably have been a bit confused and guessed they meant a CCT or GUV, not a full brake.

 

To be honest I was just curious that the use of the word "tourist" in the TSO generated some discussion, but nobody seemed bothered by parcels coach, and was wondering if I was missing something.

 

Does it matter ? Probably not, but when has that stopped us discussing things before?

 

 

 

(Edited because I got confused with what did Hornby actually say...)

[Coryton]

Off topic....but I couldn't resist this.Hi-Fi....Rega and Castle...made in UK which is where the best stuff in this line is made.

 

Car....VW....Germany ,yes ? Nein . Sud Afrika. But if we break things down into component parts,do we really know where anything is manufactured these days ? The Airbus conglomerate is an example of this.

 

As they (have to) say on the safety cards on aircraft in the US: "Country of final assembly is..." which tells you nothing about where the components were made.

[coachmann]

Car....VW....Germany ,yes ? Nein . Sud Afrika. But if we break things down into component parts,do we really know where anything is manufactured these days ?

LG coaches : Brass made and rolled dunno where. CAD in Wales. Etched in Scotland. Built and painted in Wales. By an Englishman. With Germanic surname. Derived from Norseland. Born of Lancashire and Cheshire parentage. With Yorkshire grandparents. Right-wing tendencies. But left-handed.....   

[Godfrey Glyn]

I'm sure Luis Suarez agrees....

And would bite your hand off for saying it.

Godfrey

[Derekstuart]

If you ask most people in this fair island of ours "what is the place you go to in order to board a train", the general consensus is "a train station".

Which those of us who know about railways and who may have even inadvertently swallowed a thesaurus, would refer to it as "rail(way) station".

It doesn't make it right because of common consensus. Common consensus would suggest Mc Donalds is the best restaurant in the world, but is that so?

On that basis I would respectfully point out that only a special charter- or the Scarborough Spa Express etc- should have coaches/carriages (there's another one!) named "tourist".

 

If you look in the 1957 Railwaymans rule book issued by BR (of which I have 2 copies) passenger carrying non-powered vehicles are most certainly named "trailer". Not tourist.

 

But as someone else has just pointed out this is a Hornby 2015 release thread and not one in which poor grammar should be corrected and right propar English like wot we duz.

 

I think we reached consensus that they are correct to call a TSO a Tourist Second Open, but in this case are they using a (to put it politely) non-standard term?

[Derekstuart]

Having re-read the announcement, it looks like the K1 is a re-release in a different livery. I thought this was a new model entirely?

(apologies if I've missed something somewhere).

[Oldddudders]

Derekstuart, on 22 Dec 2014 - 16:59, said:

On that basis I would respectfully point out that only a special charter- or the Scarborough Spa Express etc- should have coaches/carriages (there's another one!) named "tourist".

 

If you look in the 1957 Railwaymans rule book issued by BR (of which I have 2 copies) passenger carrying non-powered vehicles are most certainly named "trailer". Not tourist.

 

 

There was no BR 1957 Rule Book. The 1950 version was in force, with countless amendments, until the replacement in, I think, 1972.

[coachmann]

From the picture yes. But if someone said that Hornby were making a Mk 1 Parcels Coach I would have probably have been a bit confused and guessed they meant a CCT or GUV, not a full brake.

 

To be honest I was just curious that the use of the word "tourist" in the TSO generated some discussion, but nobody seemed bothered by parcels coach, and was wondering if I was missing something.

 

Does it matter ? Probably not, but when has that stopped us discussing things before?

 Incidentally, a CCT is a Covered Carriage Truck, not especially built for carrying parcels. The LMS and GWR referred to some of their open coaches as Excursion Stock while the LNER built Tourist Stock. The LMS reference meant open third coaches with high capacity seating and tables...Ideal excursion stock. While externally similar, a BR Mk.I Open Second has 48 seats with offset passageway (2+1) while a high capacity Tourist Open Second has 64 seats with central passageway (2+2), therefore the TSO designation is important to modellers in that it describes the style of interior.

[bennyboy]

Now I have the best of both worlds- I have a mix of British and foreign workers, with different skills blended together- BUT it is all under MY control HERE.

 

 

 

BENNY- that is probably the daftest thing I have heard yet.

 

To change the subject to cars as a clearer example, what you are doing is comparing a 1970's Austin to a 2014 Mercedes and saying "Britain can't build as good cars as the Germans".

 

It is true to say that the move to China saw investment in new technology. A factory move from Margate to Manchester could equally have seen the same thing. Or are you saying the Britain is inherently poor at manufacturing and that China is inherently better?

 

If that is the case (and particularly if we can expand to manufacturing generally, rather than just model trains) I think we'd need our own thread, possibly forum.

 

 

You may have disagreed with my comments, but you obviously didn't read them. I pointed out that 1970s Chinese made models were made to a much higher standard than 1970s Hornby models which is true. Ask any modeller and they will tell you that the kind of models that Hornby (and Lima for that matter) made pre 97 were twenty years behind what Chinese factories were producing for the American market.

 

"Or are you saying the Britain is inherently poor at manufacturing and that China is inherently better"

 

In general no, at manufacturing highly detailed scale models? Yes! 

 

If you can't even face the fact that the quality of Hornby's models massively increased when production moved to China then I'm obviously wasting my time arguing with you. 

[Oldddudders]

coachmann, on 22 Dec 2014 - 18:00, said:

The LMS and GWR referred to some of their open coaches as Excursion Stock while the LNER built Tourist Stock.

OTOH the LSWR built "Emigrant" stock to cater for a sort of reverse tourist!

[wombatofludham]

 Incidentally, a CCT is a Covered Carriage Truck, not especially built for carrying parcels. The LMS and GWR referred to some of their open coaches as Excursion Stock while the LNER built Tourist Stock. The LMS reference meant open third coaches with high capacity seating and tables...Ideal excursion stock. While externally similar, a BR Mk.I Open Second has 48 seats with offset passageway (2+1) while a high capacity Tourist Open Second has 64 seats with central passageway (2+2), therefore the TSO designation is important to modellers in that it describes the style of interior.

 

You beat me to it.  I distinctly recall travelling in the 1980s on a Mk2 SO labelled as such on the end data panels which was definitely not powered, so a "trailer", whilst the next carriage was a Mk2 TSO, labelled as such.  If the T stood for "trailer" both would have been TSOs but they were not.  Like you say the only difference was the SO had 2+1 seating at second class pitch (i.e 8 bays) and the TSO had 64 seats in the more normal 2+2 layout.  The 48 seat SO was built to work with a kitchen car and an FO as a dining triplet, the 2+1 arrangement giving more elbow room to avoid you wearing your Brown Windsor soup.  Whenever I used the Birmingham-Norwich service I always did a quick check to see if there was an SO (or a demoted first...) in the rake so I could get a single seat and not have some vile prole, who thought they caught their train from a train station, sit next to me.

[Budgie]

On that basis I would respectfully point out that only a special charter- or the Scarborough Spa Express etc- should have coaches/carriages (there's another one!) named "tourist".

 

If you look in the 1957 Railwaymans rule book issued by BR (of which I have 2 copies) passenger carrying non-powered vehicles are most certainly named "trailer". Not tourist.

I respectfully suggest that you look at Parkin, Mk. I Coaching Stock of British Railways.

 

The 2 and 2 seating of the thirds was rather cramped ... and later batches were given 3" wider seats and a correspondingly narrower aisle. To confuse matters further a few batches, intended for fairly regular dining use, were given 2 and 1 seating. This led the E and NE regions to adopt the brand TTO (tourist third open) to distinguish the 64 seat stock from the 48 seat TO (third open). This terminology has been continued and all 2 and 2 seated seconds are now branded TSO (the other regions not having adopted this until after the 1956 regrading).

[Derekstuart]

I did read your comments and still disagree with them.

 

What you have written below is not the same as what you wrote earlier.

 

It is well known that European and American markets were engineered to greater standards- but that's nothing to do with them being Chinese made. It has everything to do with British modeling at the time being "how many can I get in my collection" compared to the European and American "how good can I get my collection." It could be argued that this attitude still prevails generally in Britain.

 

China did not have a good reputation for quality production in the 1970's any more than it does in 2014.

 

 

As an aside, there are a few pre-eminent modelers who are recommending people use 1970's produced Hornby/ Lima models as the more recent versions aren't anything like as accurate (the 25 and 31 are good examples). In this day and age of £high and CAD and LASER measuring, that is not forgivable.

 

You may have disagreed with my comments, but you obviously didn't read them. I pointed out that 1970s Chinese made models were made to a much higher standard than 1970s Hornby models which is true. Ask any modeller and they will tell you that the kind of models that Hornby (and Lima for that matter) made pre 97 were twenty years behind what Chinese factories were producing for the American market.

 

"Or are you saying the Britain is inherently poor at manufacturing and that China is inherently better"

 

In general no, at manufacturing highly detailed scale models? Yes! 

 

If you can't even face the fact that the quality of Hornby's models massively increased when production moved to China then I'm obviously wasting my time arguing with you. 

[Ozexpatriate]

given that youve gone to the trouble to count the comments did you also count how many were pretty much questioning this coach?

Most of those comments questioned the coach in question. I didn't distinguish between 'for' and 'against'. (It was a very rough count done by searching for the word "graffiti" with a couple of different spellings.)

 

The whole discussion is very much a tempest in a teacup and I was amused by just how much people wanted to debate the topic.  

 

oh and your new tally just went up by +1 if youre still chalking the comments up.......

More than that! But I'm not keeping score.

 

At least it's more on topic than British manufacturing and education for tradespeople versus manufacturing economics in China.

[Derekstuart]

I would respectfully suggest that the BR rule book is a more credible source of terminology than any third party spotter books.

 

But as others have said (and I am as guilty as many others) this is a discussion about Hornby's 2015 releases and not my attempt to correct the grammar of people that cannot speak correct English.

 

Would you agree to disagree on this? (as long as no one suggests that train station is an accurate description for a rail(way) station, I am sure I can survive not labouring this point)

 

I respectfully suggest that you look at Parkin, Mk. I Coaching Stock of British Railways.
 

[Dave47549]

.

[Derekstuart]

I've completely changed my mind and I am sure you are right.

 

It's just that the sun is expected to blow up in 5,000,000,000 and I'd like to not still be discussing this.

 

Well, I'd choose to disagree with you! The BRB Coaching stock diagrams specifically refer to TSO with 2+2 seating & an SO with 2+1, therefore the 'T' is for 'Tourist, not 'Trailer' for LHCS.

 

I would respectfully suggest that the specific diagram book is a more credible source than a rule book ;-) . The Parkin reference is to the (now) HMRS published 'bible on Mk.1 stock. I also have several other sources confirming the use of the offending 'T' - but they're 'only' spotter books....

[Peter Bedding]

OTOH the LSWR built "Emigrant" stock to cater for a sort of reverse tourist!

 

At 46ft 6inches long these Emigrant coaches were most unusual. In the fullness of time conversions were added to the pull-push fleet. Middleton's "Branch Lines around Plymouh" has a photo of Set 734 after conversion, and attached to O2 Number 30207 at Lucas Terrace Halt between Turnchapel and Plymouth Friary. A fascinating contemporary alternative to gate stock Set 374 (and others) on the same duty.

 

PB

[Arthur]

 

 

 

I've completely changed my mind and I am sure you are right.

 

It's just that the sun is expected to blow up in 5,000,000,000 and I'd like to not still be discussing this.

 

 

 

That's gracious of you.

[Dave47549]

.

[Peter Bedding]

...................................

 

It's just that the sun is expected to blow up in 5,000,000,000 and I'd like to not still be discussing this...........................

 

Thanks for the tip; I must set my alarm clock.

 

PB

[Guest]

It's just that the sun is expected to blow up in 5,000,000,000 and I'd like to not still be discussing this.

 

 

Thanks for the tip; I must set my alarm clock.

 

Me too. Should tie in nicely with the arrival of the 2015 range...

[Derekstuart]

What a very strange thing to say.

 

Are you comparing your own viewpoint to a scientifically proven viewpoint that has been around since the mid 1500's?

 

Like I said, I will leave you to it. I've made my point and I genuinely didn't intend to take part in a thread hijacking.

 

I shall leave you to your debate about graffiti and "that strange bloke who doesn't like poor grammar".

 

 

By the way, the earth isn't flat.

 

... 'Tho I'm sure you'll hit disagree to that too.

[Ian Abel]

By the way, the earth isn't flat.

 

... 'Tho I'm sure you'll hit disagree to that too.

Wait...what??? It ISN'T.... well, b**gg**er, and here I was telling folks not to sail too far west otherwise they'd fall off the edge

[olivegreen]

Profuse apologies for returning to the subject of this thread…(sort of)...

 

… I have just noticed the Threadgold open wagon in  Hornby's 2015 list.  Isn't Threadgold the company that made thoroughgrip garterettes?

 

(Those for whom 'It's a Square World' is unknown territory may not understand the question)