Hornby 2015 Announcements now made

[Michanglais]

At the risk of getting shot down... warning, this is a big rant

 

Apologies, I haven't read this topic in full so I may be repeating what others have said, my comments are more general than specific regarding Hornby's 2015 releases, but have certainly been sparked by the latter.

 

I'm astounded that Hornby are still peddling those Mk4 coaches and, for that matter, the Mk3 (even with its 'improvements')! I also model continental and for between €55 and €65 (yes, more expensive, but not that much - especially considering the more favourable exchange rate at the moment) you can get a coach model with a wealth of detail that blows even the latest Hornby and Bachmann offerings out of the water. (BTW, is that really the final Hornby air-con Mk2 model with the sagging underframe - or just a pre-production prototype?). Take a look at some of the offerings at http://www.reisezugwagen.eu/to get an idea.

 

It's a matter of choice but I'd rather have a few less coaches, even half the number, with incredible detail, than longer rakes that don't even have proper NEM coupler sockets, contain toy interiors and sit on bogies that are frequently little more than lumps of unpainted plastic. 

 

The Hornby crane/pantographs are a joke (take a look at an LS Models SNCF BB22200 as an example of how fine operating pantographs can be - try: http://www.traindefrance.fr/fr/locomotives-electriques/978-locomotive-electrique-bb-22200-sncf-de-ls-models-10050.html- click on 'Agrandir'. Note, this is the sound version, the 'silent' versions usually go for around €220. Just a random site, btw, no affiliation!). Yes, a vastly different price range, but that gap seems to be closing (a 3-figure Hornby shunter, for instance). In fact, I've got Roco locos that I've bought second hand for around €50 that date back 20 years and sport better pans than the current efforts available on UK models.

 

I desperately want to model the latter days of BR (notably AC electric) but am constantly disappointed by what is churned out. I'm not even that impressed with Bachmann's Class 85, which is by far the best AC electric on offer.

 

I'll happily admit I'm not a particularly talented modeller - I can fit items from a few aftermarket detailing packs and flush glazing - so I need at least a good base. 

 

As far as markets and pricing goes, I think the UK and French markets are probably similar in size, having lived in France for 12 years now, the hobby seems to be no more or less popular here and there is an international following probably equalling that of British ex-pats. Unfortunately, I think there is even a market to be tapped into. I've heard a number of French modellers admiring the 1:1 styling of UK rolling stock but not being prepared to pay prices that seem excessive for low(er)-quality products.

 

I'm praying that Bachmann produce a decent panto on their class 90 (that is available as a spare...), I'm awaiting the front valance solution with bated breath.

 

Along with another contributor, I was relieved to see that Hornby haven't included a new 87 in their plans.

 

As I touched on earlier, some of this depends on how much post-purchase improvement you are willing to make (if you've got the skills), however, the increasing prices of UK models leave me reluctant to take the risk of messing up an expensive model.

 

Probably the most 'insulting' issue is that Hornby International offers former Jouef models that can be had for exactly the same price as current UK models with much greater detailing.

 

Okay, I could go on but I realise a lot of this has been said before and will cause some contention. Just as a sidebar, I don't have a big modelling budget, I'd just prefer quality over quantity.

 

Please feel free to comment

 

 

 

 

[bigherb]

I'm astounded that Hornby are still peddling those Mk4 coaches and, for that matter, the Mk3 (even with its 'improvements')

What do you expect them to do? Retool and up spec the same models ever couple of years?

[wombatofludham]

What do you expect them to do? Retool and up spec the same models ever couple of years?

 

Except the Mk4s have never been upgraded since their introduction in 1988, and are now incorrect for the current liveries they carry, some of the Mk3 range is ex-Lima dating from the early 1980s and the others from 1999, but were modelled on a hybrid design featuring some details from the loco hauled Mk3 stock and some details from the HST stock, so are neither fish nor fowl.  It would be like Hornby deciding that the Gresley and Thompson suburbans were close enough and doing one moulding for both with bits of each design merged into one model.  No doubt there would be howls of protest here if that had happened, so why should those who model the 1970s onward have to accept second best?  Or are "modern image" fans "kiddies" who will accept any old tat whilst the true modellers only ever model steam?

 

An unchanged tooling from 1985 or 1988, or even 1999, is not expecting them to be retooled every two years, for the ex-Lima Mk3 we're talking nearly thirty years and for the Mk4 over 25 years yet they seem to be able to find the funding for myriad variations of Pullman cars.  The ECML Mk4 is as much a prestige high speed train as the Queen of Scots Pullman ever was.

[JSpencer]

 

I'm astounded that Hornby are still peddling those Mk4 coaches and, for that matter, the Mk3 (even with its 'improvements')! I also model continental and for between €55 and €65 (yes, more expensive, but not that much - especially considering the more favourable exchange rate at the moment) you can get a coach model with a wealth of detail that blows even the latest Hornby and Bachmann offerings out of the water. (BTW, is that really the final Hornby air-con Mk2 model with the sagging underframe - or just a pre-production prototype?). Take a look at some of the offerings at http://www.reisezugwagen.eu/to get an idea.

 

It's a matter of choice but I'd rather have a few less coaches, even half the number, with incredible detail, than longer rakes that don't even have proper NEM coupler sockets, contain toy interiors and sit on bogies that are frequently little more than lumps of unpainted plastic. 

 

The Hornby crane/pantographs are a joke (take a look at an LS Models SNCF BB22200 as an example of how fine operating pantographs can be - try: http://www.traindefrance.fr/fr/locomotives-electriques/978-locomotive-electrique-bb-22200-sncf-de-ls-models-10050.html- click on 'Agrandir'. Note, this is the sound version, the 'silent' versions usually go for around €220. Just a random site, btw, no affiliation!). Yes, a vastly different price range, but that gap seems to be closing (a 3-figure Hornby shunter, for instance). In fact, I've got Roco locos that I've bought second hand for around €50 that date back 20 years and sport better pans than the current efforts available on UK models.

 

I desperately want to model the latter days of BR (notably AC electric) but am constantly disappointed by what is churned out. I'm not even that impressed with Bachmann's Class 85, which is by far the best AC electric on offer.

 

As far as markets and pricing goes, I think the UK and French markets are probably similar in size, having lived in France for 12 years now, the hobby seems to be no more or less popular here and there is an international following probably equalling that of British ex-pats. Unfortunately, I think there is even a market to be tapped into. I've heard a number of French modellers admiring the 1:1 styling of UK rolling stock but not being prepared to pay prices that seem excessive for low(er)-quality products.

 

I'm praying that Bachmann produce a decent panto on their class 90 (that is available as a spare...), I'm awaiting the front valance solution with bated breath.

 

Along with another contributor, I was relieved to see that Hornby haven't included a new 87 in their plans.

 

)

I find The "best" Hornby and Bachmann offerings are pretty close to equal to most of their continental cousins, they have NEM sockets , close coupling systems and more than enough separately fitted detail. With the exception of Pullmans, these best are behind on lighting. The only exceptions being the latest continental which are OTT. Best is enemy of the good enough. What is the point of having super duper detailed coaches and not being able to afford a full rake of them?

 

The prices you seem to show are like comparing a box shifter from France with Hornby's SRPs. On the whole, most French people I know (and I have lived in France since 2001), are jealous at the Balance of detail we have these days, combined with smooth running and price. They drooled over my Bachmann 9F and Hornby A1 and fell over backwards when they say the price was half or 2/3rds of what they would pay. They were equally shocked that the A1 moved under the slightest bit current.

Currently there is a HO all new Joeuf USA tank vs Bachmann special edition USA tank. I think they will match each other for detail, but the UK model with be a 1/3 cheaper.

 

The class 85 is, I agree the best UK outline AC electric to date, I find it out classes anything continental produced before 2000, especially for running qualities. All the rest, there I agree, not worth a carrot until the Bachmann 90 arrives.

 

 

As to whether the French Market is similar in size to the UK one, I doubt it. All French modelers I know are complaining about how pricy these trains are. Disposable income is currently on a sharp decline thanks to current governments policies of taxing more and more those who earn more than one euro above the SMIC.

Many of layouts I have seen, are typical Faller round and round style, unlike most UK layouts which has lots of craftsmanship built into them. Indeed I am surprised at the number of Marklin stud contact layouts I see at exhibitions, which must surely be an obsolete concept in this day and age.

 

Moving back to the thread, I agree the current offerings of Mk3 and Mk4 coaches are not worth it. Certainly I would not insult the super detailed HST power cars with such dated coaches. Hopefully 2015 will see Rapido bring something better out there.

 

I also fail to understand why the dated and pointless 4 wheel coaches cost £15. Assembly of these must be peanuts, there are only 8 parts after all and I could make one in 15 seconds blind folded.

 

That said there loco offerings in steam are very good, and perfectly adequate in terms of detail for my likes.

[Coryton]

I also fail to understand why the dated and pointless 4 wheel coaches cost £15. Assembly of these must be peanuts, there are only 8 parts after all and I could make one in 15 seconds blind folded.

 

Presumably because there are enough people out there who will pay £15 for them. There is no reason that what they charge should bear any resemblance to their costs, so long as it is enough higher. I'm sure they could make a profit selling them for a lot less, and sell more of them...but overall presumably they think £15 maximises their profit, for something that most "real" modellers wouldn't touch anyway.

[Ozexpatriate]

I also fail to understand why the dated and pointless 4 wheel coaches cost £15. Assembly of these must be peanuts, there are only 8 parts after all and I could make one in 15 seconds blind folded.

Perhaps Hornby is responding to criticisms that there should be *some* coaches in the range for every locomotive to pull and they represent each of the Big Four. Plus, they are Railroad branded items. Presumably your issue is the price, rather than their existence?

 

At £15 they remain slightly cheaper than other Railroad coaches (£19-£20), so are arguably more affordable for younger enthusiasts. £8-10 might be a fairer price given that the Railroad vans are priced at around £7.75.

 

Asking twice as much for the four-wheeled coach compared to a van does seem a bit inconsistent.

[Removed a/c]

I think perhaps it is the inconsistent pricing that people cannot fathom ? 

 

The new MK2Es for example (main range) have a RRP of £24.99  yet the MK3s are priced at £28.49 It can't be the livery because the prices are the same across the board.  Surely it can't just be popularity? The MK3s don't even have NEM pockets !!! 

 

Interesting to note that the MK2D brake is £27.49 and the open is £28.49  WTH ?!?!

 

With pricing like that is it no wonder people get annoyed ! 

[frobisher]

I think perhaps it is the inconsistent pricing that people cannot fathom ? 

 

The new MK2Es for example (main range) have a RRP of £24.99  yet the MK3s are priced at £28.49 It can't be the livery because the prices are the same across the board.  Surely it can't just be popularity? The MK3s don't even have NEM pockets !!! 

 

Interesting to note that the MK2D brake is £27.49 and the open is £28.49  WTH ?!?!

 

With pricing like that is it no wonder people get annoyed !

Manufacturing costs can sometimes be higher on old tooling due to a combination of factors. The MK2E's were designed to be low production cost items on current manufacturing processes. The MK3's weren't necessarily designed with the same aims in mind

[coachmann]

Manufacturing costs can sometimes be higher on old tooling due to a combination of factors. The MK2E's were designed to be low production cost items on current manufacturing processes. The MK3's weren't necessarily designed with the same aims in mind

I often think of this when handling the latest batch of Gresley corridor coaches. Hornby invested in correcting the lower beading but has done nothing about the multi-component bogies. It matters when they are so fragile. That said, Bachmann's current LMS bogies must represent the ultimate in 2014 awfulness both in design and appearance. 

[Budgie]

I also fail to understand why the dated and pointless 4 wheel coaches cost £15. Assembly of these must be peanuts, there are only 8 parts after all and I could make one in 15 seconds blind folded.

I'm sure you can get them much cheaper by going to an exhibition and buying them from various second-hand dealers.

[Andy Hayter]

Not in France Budgie - I have seen a few very tatty UK models (as I suspect has JSpencer) but never a 4 wheel Hornby coach.

[olivegreen]

Not in France Budgie - I have seen a few very tatty UK models (as I suspect has JSpencer) but never a 4 wheel Hornby coach.

I have seen a  few, too… and in exhibitions some of the most un-exhibition-worthy layouts imaginable.

[Budgie]

Not in France Budgie - I have seen a few very tatty UK models (as I suspect has JSpencer) but never a 4 wheel Hornby coach.

Ah, yes. Sorry.

[ozwarrior]

The UK model railway market is considerably larger than either France or Italy and is second to Germany. I used to have the data but annoyingly can't find it. It was a while ago but I doubt it will have changed, if anything perhaps strengthened with the Eurozone problems. So I am sorry I can't reference this.

Regards,

Les

[Andy Hayter]

I don't doubt the market sizes Ozwarrior, but if you do find the reference, I would be fascinated to see the numbers

[jjb1970]

I think it is easy to lose sight of what a significant hobby it is in Britain. If we only consider OO we have four major suppliers of RTR:

 

Hornby

Bachmann

Dapol

Heljan

 

We have two new entrants to RTR with potential to become large suppliers:

 

DJM

Oxford Rail

 

At least two niche RTR suppliers with potential to expand their OO line:

 

Realtrack

Rapido

 

Multiple shops and a museum commissioning models including new tooling. One of the major suppliers of track and track accessories is a British company, Peco. And that is without going into the myriad kit and specialist producers. There really are not many other countries with anything like this level of trade support.

[Oldddudders]

jjb1970, on 04 Jan 2015 - 17:26, said:

I think it is easy to lose sight of what a significant hobby it is in Britain. If we only consider OO we have four major suppliers of RTR:

 

SNIP

 

Multiple shops and a museum commissioning models including new tooling. One of the major suppliers of track and track accessories is a British company, Peco. And that is without going into the myriad kit and specialist producers. There really are not many other countries with anything like this level of trade support.

I agree. You only have to compare the monthly magazines in UK and France to see how dramatically different the markets are. UK has (at least) 4 mass-market monthlies, each pretty well packed with ads. France has (at least) 3 comparable monthlies - but they are far more expensive per copy and pathetically short of ads to offset the cover price.

[Focalplane]

When I used to visit Calgary (work related) the modelers there always claimed that the North American market dwarves all others, hence the huge variety of locomotives and stock that is available.  But I am not so sure these days, thanks to the combination of OO gauge RTR and the equivalent of American (Asian) brass which would be the OO gauge metal kits that remain very popular in the UK.  It also seems to be true that many think that the desirable range of British RTR locomotives will soon be reached - the Adams Radial has been cited as a good example - with some of the range already subject to duplication.  The UK market (its oddball scale notwithstanding) seems to be surviving rather well.

 

When you factor in the demographics, the shrinking size of UK houses, the expanding time gap between pre-Beeching and the present day, etc., it is all the more remarkable that there is such a broad selection available.

 

I believe the future may well see a huge expansion of customization through limited run 3D printing offerings.  Another way to keep the discerning modeler more than satisfied.

[JSpencer]

When I used to visit Calgary (work related) the modelers there always claimed that the North American market dwarves all others, hence the huge variety of locomotives and stock that is available.  But I am not so sure these days, thanks to the combination of OO gauge RTR and the equivalent of American (Asian) brass which would be the OO gauge metal kits that remain very popular in the UK.  It also seems to be true that many think that the desirable range of British RTR locomotives will soon be reached - the Adams Radial has been cited as a good example - with some of the range already subject to duplication.  The UK market (its oddball scale notwithstanding) seems to be surviving rather well.

 

When you factor in the demographics, the shrinking size of UK houses, the expanding time gap between pre-Beeching and the present day, etc., it is all the more remarkable that there is such a broad selection available.

 

I believe the future may well see a huge expansion of customization through limited run 3D printing offerings.  Another way to keep the discerning modeler more than satisfied.

 

What you have to remember is that most of the UK has a railway nearby. When I visited Canada, you were lucky to see a railway in most places we visited, even rare was a train on them. But when you see a train, what a train!

[jaym481]

What you have to remember is that most of the UK has a railway nearby. When I visited Canada, you were lucky to see a railway in most places we visited, even rare was a train on them. But when you see a train, what a train!

I'm Canadian, so I probably have a slightly different view. In Western Canada, dominated by mountains and river valleys, rail lines nearly always parallel roads. My home town happened to be the one place where both the Canadian Pacific and Canadian National lines met, as they had one suitable route to go through to Vancouver. One line ran on the North/West side of the valley, and the other on the South/East. The main road (Trans-Canada Highway - grandly named two-lane twisty mountain road) also ran on the South/East side, so any road trip to Vancouver gave plenty of looong looks at CP stock (as you say, massive trains). Today though, there's an alternate road route to Vancouver, which cuts 3 hours off the trip, though beyond Hope (that's a town   ) the road joins up with The TCH again (now four-lane at least) and the rails are in on-and-off view.

 

In Eastern Canada it's another story, though the Go! Train can often be seen when driving the 401 corridor East of Toronto.

[brushman47544]

I see from Graham Muspratt's site that "Stocks of the LMS horsebox and the BR 21T hopper wagon announced at Warley are already in the Hornby warehouse ready for immediate shipping in the new year." Wow!

 

Or perhaps not, since the Hornby website is now saying Q4 2015 for the 21Tonners...?

[Ian Abel]

It appears it will be "...business as usual..." for Hornby this year in spite of the fanfare for the 2015 models and the "..we're trying harder..." rubbish??

 

In addition to the 21 tonners now listed as Q4 (see above), apparently the "Winston Churchill" set is now showing as Aug. 1st. 2015, seven months later than originally stated, and I got an email from Hattons letting me know that "R3310 WC Bude" is now slated for July 1st. 2015 - don't even remember how "late" that makes it beyond the original date.

 

Who knows how likely the current dates are (I WON'T PLACE BETS!!), but they certainly are a swift change from the dates provided less than a month ago!

Now I'm no scheduling genius and can often be held accountable by the Mrs for not exactly bringing things in on schedule, BUT, my cockups are usually accompanied by reasonable scheduling changes and other planning/event issues - what's Hornbys excuse?

 

Does anyone there think/plan before opening their mouths and placing dates on these things?!?! I find it hard to believe that less than 30 days ago they had a planned date for "Winston Churchill", for example, and NOW it's moved out 7 months. Either they are lying to folks when they post the dates, or somewhere in the building they are housing a pack of idiots for planners/schedulers! Sorry, but it's one or the other IMHO!

[JSpencer]

I do not see why people get so obsessed over delivery dates. I accept that they are indicative of what they are hoping for and nothing more.

 

These days Hornby should just say, "we hope to have most of this out within 2 years" and leave it at that.

 

Other manufacturers have quite clearly said that the only part they can definitely predict is shipping, 28 days. The rest depends on how lucky they are with the first EPs being spot on (or you accept serious errors!).

[coachmann]

Can anyone shed any light on the Hornby LMS horsebox droplight. A lake droplight most likely, a varnished wood one maybe, but yellow?

[virginhst539]

I can only assume the mk4 DVT in east coast livery will be missing the wifi dome. Is there anywhere produces them?