What do I need to do to my points for DCC - Electrofrog and insulfrog?

[topsy11]

Hello.

 

I've been running DC for the last few weeks and everythings been running nicely. I've wired up a BUS main and currently just wired up the outer line which has been fine.

 

I've installed an electrofrog point today and when I switched it across the train would cut out and eventually it seems to of broke my controller HM2000.

 

I'm going DCC next week once I get some decoders and don't want to blow up my Lenz 100.

 

I've had a quick look online and read the back of the packaging on the peco points but not sure what I actually need to do on the electrofrog and insulfrog points so I don't have any trouble. I'm guessing I've caused some sort of earth today as I got a little spark when switching the points??

 

Please try and keep it fairly simple for me :-)

 

Cheers

Mark

[griffo49]

Try this first! Very good, from first principle, explanations.

 

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.html#Live

 

Steve

[topsy11]

Thanks mate, I've read that before but still a little lost with it all to be honest.

 

Do I need to add any insulating fishplates for now and do I need to do anything to the metal wire bits on the rear of the points before going DCC is probably a more suitable question just so I can get a few locos running next week while I still try and understand all this DCC malarky!

 

Cheers

 

Mark

[Crewlisle]

Simple answer - nothing so long as you insert insulating rail joiners iaw instructions with the live frog points!  I have 32 Peco Electrofrog Code 100 points on my layout, all operated by Peco solenoid motors & the only polarity switch on the whole of my DCC layout is for the live frog diamond.  Inspite of what all the DCC 'experts' say it is not mandatory to spend extra time & money on polarity switches or JMRIs or SPROGS (whatever they are).

 

Peco points can be used straight out of the box.  In the last 8 years I have been using DCC, the number of times I have had problems with stalling on points due to polarity problems I can count on one hand & the cause was either dirt on the closing face of the moving rail or a piece of ballast/dirt preventing the moving blade making contact with the fixed rail.  Every time I clean the track I push the blades together & rub a piece of very fine emery paper between them to ensure there is no dirt on the inside faces of the point blade.

[topsy11]

Thanks for the reply.

 

I've not fitted any isolating fishplates so I'm guessing that's what's causing the short circuit!

 

I've just watched a quick video on YouTube which explains it fairly well. Looks like I'll have to order a pack. I think my x-over is an electrofrog as well as the point.

 

Cheers

Mark

[deadlyduck]

Thanks mate, I've read that before but still a little lost with it all to be honest.

 

Do I need to add any insulating fishplates for now and do I need to do anything to the metal wire bits on the rear of the points before going DCC is probably a more suitable question just so I can get a few locos running next week while I still try and understand all this DCC malarky!

 

Cheers

 

Mark

Hi if you are just getting into DCC it might be an idea to look round where you live for a Model Railway club.I think its a lot easier to understand when you are being shown n trying things out yourself,with someone who knows about these thing that can point you in the right direction.Once you know the basics the rest should follow.the last thing any new modeller needs is to get bogged down n lose interest,better to be shown.Thats how i started

david

[deadlyduck]

Thanks for the reply.

 

I've not fitted any isolating fishplates so I'm guessing that's what's causing the short circuit!

 

I've just watched a quick video on YouTube which explains it fairly well. Looks like I'll have to order a pack. I think my x-over is an electrofrog as well as the point.

 

Cheers

Mark

As has been aready quote Brian Lambert website is a great introduction n more into the realms of DCC,but as i have pointed out is to get through the basics first.Like soldering,if you are good at this you are a way way forward

David

[michaelp]

Simple answer - nothing so long as you insert insulating rail joiners iaw instructions with the live frog points!  I have 32 Peco Electrofrog Code 100 points on my layout, all operated by Peco solenoid motors & the only polarity switch on the whole of my DCC layout is for the live frog diamond.  Inspite of what all the DCC 'experts' say it is not mandatory to spend extra time & money on polarity switches or JMRIs or SPROGS (whatever they are).

 

Peco points can be used straight out of the box.  In the last 8 years I have been using DCC, the number of times I have had problems with stalling on points due to polarity problems I can count on one hand & the cause was either dirt on the closing face of the moving rail or a piece of ballast/dirt preventing the moving blade making contact with the fixed rail.  Every time I clean the track I push the blades together & rub a piece of very fine emery paper between them to ensure there is no dirt on the inside faces of the point blade.

 

Yep same for me, IRJs only and regular cleaning of switch and stock rails as well as the rest of the track of course.

[topsy11]

I would love to join a club but probably only get one evening off a month to go due to my work commitments.

 

Warley club is around 10 mins from here and would be ideal but only being able to attend once a month isn't really ideal.

 

I've orders some nylon fishplates and had another look through the Brian Lambert page and think I've got the hang of it!

 

Isolating fishplates - cut two metal wires on the rear and add a link across the + and - on the rear?

 

Luckily I think I've only got a couple of electrofrog points with the rest being insulfrog which I should of maybe stuck with throughout!

 

I'll pop up and hopefully get the points sorted this week in prep for next Monday :-)

[deadlyduck]

I would love to join a club but probably only get one evening off a month to go due to my work commitments.

 

Warley club is around 10 mins from here and would be ideal but only being able to attend once a month isn't really ideal.

 

I've orders some nylon fishplates and had another look through the Brian Lambert page and think I've got the hang of it!

 

Isolating fishplates - cut two metal wires on the rear and add a link across the + and - on the rear?

 

Luckily I think I've only got a couple of electrofrog points with the rest being insulfrog which I should of maybe stuck with throughout!

 

I'll pop up and hopefully get the points sorted this week in prep for next Monday :-)

Its a great club Tuesdays between 7.00pm till around 10.00pm.I know it hard sometimes due to work,but if you can stsrt on the right path you can save yourself a lot of stress in the long term.It is a great hobby but if things start to go wrong a very frustrating 1

[BR60103]

Topsy:

the minimum you need to do is the IRJs. The point blade acts like a wire across the tracks. You will need them any place that electricity may come into a point from the frog end. If you put them in places like dead-end sidings, you will need an extra feed on the siding.

The extra work on the point: some wheels contact the open point blade and cause a short. On DC the train hesitates a bit; on DCC the system shuts down. This is when you need to cut the jumpers and add the cross feeds. Test your stock before you fix the points down permanently.  I do the modifications even though I'm running DC.

[topsy11]

Many thanks for true reply. Excuse my ignorance but what's an IRJ?

 

Thanks

 

Mark.

[Downendian]

iRJ = insulating rail joiner.

I've many code 75 Peco points on my layout all wired for DCC, none yet have the frog "juiced" by polarity switches but I intend to do so as I'm not sure about the longevity of using the point blades to do the polarity switching for me. I will use a combination of tortoise point motors and bullfrog manual point switches to do this, both have polarity switches inbuilt.

 

Neil

[RFS]

Bear in mind also that the point blades provide power to the closure and frog rails via a pivoted connection.  Ballasting the points by the time-honoured method of flooding with PVA, and then capillary action, enhanced by the drops of washing up liquid, can cause PVA to seep into this and cause electrical problems.  I've had several instances of that on my layout with code 75 points.  But all my points use Tortoise point motors with polarity switching, and the stock and closure rails are bonded with a DCC dropper, so it's only the blade that is affected, not the entire length of the point. Locos with plenty of pickups will cope with just a dead blade, but I've needed to clean the place where they touch to make sure the blade stays live.

[Butler Henderson]

Would agree that the frog should be switched so as not to depend on the rails contacting, Maplins alarm tamper switch works perfectly once aligned corrected off the peco point motor operating rod as it is very lightly sprung, other microswitches can be heavilly sprung and counteract the switching action of the point motor.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/v3-style-alarm-tamper-switch-nf21x

 

The pivot is a pain, really a weak point in Pecos design and they really ought to factory fit a link wire across the pivot short of redesigning the point to exclude it like Tilligs for example.

[RFS]

The pivot is a pain, really a weak point in Pecos design and they really ought to factory fit a link wire across the pivot short of redesigning the point to exclude it like Tilligs for example.

 

If I were laying my points again in the scenic section, where they would be ballasted, then I'd certainly think about bonding the moving blade to the stock rail with a short piece of 3-amp fuse wire, as I have seen recommended elsewhere.  This should be flexible enough to move with the blades.

[shibushe]

It was mentioned use Emery Tape to clean the inside of the point blades.

That's a NO NO NO

What he may have meant, use fine grade Wet & Dry.

Emery will leave unacceptable amount of grit giving you more problems.

I use unmodified electro points not had any problems.

Just make sure you feed from the toe end.

Another tip. after you have laid a length of track. wire it run a loco see if it works.

Sort the problems as you go.

.

[Crewlisle]

My mistake!  I agree with 'shibushe'.  I always use very fine wet & dry.

[kevinlms]

Simple answer - nothing so long as you insert insulating rail joiners iaw instructions with the live frog points!  I have 32 Peco Electrofrog Code 100 points on my layout, all operated by Peco solenoid motors & the only polarity switch on the whole of my DCC layout is for the live frog diamond.  Inspite of what all the DCC 'experts' say it is not mandatory to spend extra time & money on polarity switches or JMRIs or SPROGS (whatever they are).

 

It isn't just a DCC thing, its good electrical practice to not rely on the point blade contacting the stock rail, on DC too. It certainly isn't 'mandatory' at all. Would I do it on a new layout - absolutely.