Manufacturing in China

[Budgie]

I have just watched tonight's Panorama on BBC1, which was concerned with how Apple products were made, with conditions for their workers being terrible and contrary to what Apple says they should be, and with some of the metal in some components originating from illegal sources.

 

Naturally, I wonder if the same sort of thing applies to those Chinese manufacturers who supply the model railway companies in the UK, US, Canada, etc. Also, I wonder if people not returning to work after the New Year holiday is a symptom of their inability to cope with the working conditions.

 

What do other people think?

[Ozexpatriate]

What do other people think?

I think the situation with Hon Hai/Foxconn is probably quite different than the average model railway manufacturer in China.

 

Everything is on a much bigger and more industrial scale at Foxconn. The number of employees, the dormitory life and I suspect the regimentation expected of employees as well. Foxconn and high tech manufacturers pay workers more than the small factories which has been used to explain why some model railway workers don't return after the New Year.

 

I've never been to China or seen the inside of a model railway factory. My best source of information so far is Jason Shron of Rapido Trains who has shared photographs of the factory and the employees in their working environment. (It's not what I'd call 'nice' but I've worked in dirty sheds too. No injection moulding shop is ever 'clean'.) The model railway factories are pretty low-tech compared with Foxconn, but my guess is that they are not nearly as regimented. Doubtless the employees work really hard for not a lot of money by our standards.

 

You can find Jason's photo essays on the factories here, here and here. Many of Jason's blog entries contain photos of the employees in the factory in China.

 

The principal of OxfordRail describes his Oxford Diecast Factory in China with the following comment: "I would place a bet that our factory is in the top 10 most efficient manufacturers of our type in China. It looks like Swansea 1979!"

 

We've read stories of labour disputes between employees and Kader as they closed and moved the old Sanda Kan facility. Clearly the model railway factories are no workers' paradise.

 

As to their sourcing of raw materials - I have no idea. Things operate differently in China than the west.

[Ozexpatriate]

But it certainly justified my belief that Apple is 99% hype and <1% technical innovation

Apple is all about design ethos and an aesthetic form factor - not technology.

[298]

I gave up on the Panorama programme as they were trying to compare factory conditions to western standards, which is never going to be relevant. The health & safety standards on the tin extracting site looked worrying, but such practices are hard to break and you probably don't have to go back too many years to see similar standards in the UK.

 

(But no more than 60 hours a week, no unpaid meetings, and being allowed to fall asleep on breaks- when can I start....?)

[It's Sadie!]

Given that China is The PRC  i cant imagine the people in any trade are wll looked after, by our western European "standards of living" - but if people keep trading with them and they work thier through choice (sort of) well that life innit.

Oh that's OK then...

 

I imagine that's how many in the west justify their consumer choices? I take it that 'well that life innit' when buildings in Bangladesh collapse killing thousands of workers making cheapo clothes for or glorious retail industry in the UK?

 

Sleep well in your comfy life there...

[TheQ]

. (It's not what I'd call 'nice' but I've worked in dirty sheds too. No injection moulding shop is ever 'clean'.) 

 

 

Not entirely true, I had a job interview at one of the biggest manufacturer of plastic caps for milk bottles (amongst other things) and the place was absolutely immaculate

[It's Sadie!]

From the posts on here so far it appears many are scratching around to justify poor working conditions overseas to ease their conscience as they consume the products.

 

Putting anyone in any danger to pander to our insatiable consumerist appetite in the west cannot be morally justified - you just end up with comments attempting to distance the problem. It won't go away. If you buy these products then live with that on your conscience...

[black and decker boy]

This is going to be a long hard thread. Such a topic is like Politics, you will never see agreement and it will degenerate due the moral stance taken by some. The same applies to discussions about Apple in general but if you read the threads on here, is equally applicable to Hornby and Bachmann who have both fervent supporters and objectors who like to trade insults.

 

Then there is ABS who can give you a prickly destructive review of anything and everything so I will wait for his in depth review of the Chinese (and all other overseas) factories before I make my own statement.

[johnarcher]

Does anyone know whether this applies only to the products of Bachmann, Hornby etc., or is any etching or casting for kits and components done there?

[Jol Wilkinson]

It is ironic that, whatever view you take on working conditions, etc. in the Far East, it is very difficult not to buy products from those countries. Consumer electronics, toys, model railway products, clothes, the list goes on.

 

Where there are alternative products manufactured in the UK or Europe, many people will still choose F E manufactured items, based on price, perceived value for money or a belief that the items are better made. Cars are one major, high cost, example.

 

So despite sharing Mickey's view that I would like to buy more locally sourced products, it isn't always possible. At least we can take some comfort from the fact most model railway kits are UK manufactured, often in small sheds for fairly poor returns, so putting us on a par with the Chinese. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Does anyone know whether this applies only to the products of Bachmann, Hornby etc., or is any etching or casting for kits and components done there?

John,

 

as far as I know, most of the kit components are UK produced. Etchings, brass and w/m castings almost certainly UK produced. Some items such as motors are usually produced in the far east, but that is often because they are a side line of manufacturing for other industries.

 

Jol

[johnarcher]

John,

 

as far as I know, most of the kit components are UK produced. Etchings, brass and w/m castings almost certainly UK produced. Some items such as motors are usually produced in the far east, but that is often because they are a side line of manufacturing for other industries.

 

Jol

Thanks, that's what I thought. maybe I can have a semi-clear conscience then (Mashima motors?).

At least the people producing kits in the UK for small returns are presumably doing it voluntarily. (As I do some, non-modelling, work here in a shed).

[Mike Storey]

As an aside, a recent poll showed 1 in 6 UK firms have considered "re-shoring" (the reverse of "off-shoring") in the last two years, but only 1 in 60 (IIRC) have actually done it, either fully or partially (vast majority only partially). I guess this may increase as wages and other costs in China increase, and few other viable, low cost countries with the necessary skills and infrastructure appear available, but Eastern Europe may benefit more from this. Static European demand may slow this down.

 

China's new strategy is to produce a far greater proportion of output for their domestic consumption, to satisfy their growing middle class who would otherwise be demanding greater political reform. The 100% increase in wages over five years commanded for factory workers, will also generate greater domestic buying power, and much reduce state and communal welfare bills. As their working age profile worsens, producing labour shortages over time, working conditions are one area which will see some improvement in order to attract and retain staff, but automation will also increase dramatically, requiring major increases in investment, at a time when borrowing is difficult there. Foreign inward investment is therefore being encouraged more than has been the case in the past. All the time that Chinese manufacturers need to squeeze maximum gain from a rising costs base, with minimal domestic regulation or enforcement of basic safety, environmental or transparency standards, then Panorama could go on making such documentaries for years to come. Is this caused by rapacious western demand for cheap goods? Well, would they have any kind of economy now if such demand had not existed and they decided to fulfill it, and is the majority now driven by rapacious Chinese and other Asian demand for cheap goods? Will their burgeoning middle classes force improved working standards for their poorer comrades? No sign of that.

 

The highly labour-intensive field of model railway manufacture is thus sensitive to these multiple impacts, but the cost of withdrawal to other climes is still, presumably, greater than sticking with it, for now. Perhaps Dave Jones has better insight on this.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

From the posts on here so far it appears many are scratching around to justify poor working conditions overseas to ease their conscience as they consume the products.

 

Putting anyone in any danger to pander to our insatiable consumerist appetite in the west cannot be morally justified - you just end up with comments attempting to distance the problem. It won't go away. If you buy these products then live with that on your conscience...

I am happy to do so. People flocked to the appalling conditions of the cities of the industrialising UK, because it offered a better life than dying dirt poor in the picturesque slum which was the countryside. I wish there were a better way to spread the benefits of industrialisation - and the decent earning power that goes with it - globally, but this appears to be the least worst method on the available evidence. The PRC's own 'alternative' experiments under the 'leader of immortal memory' just one of many failed theoretically 'better' ways.

[johnarcher]

I am happy to do so. People flocked to the appalling conditions of the cities of the industrialising UK, because it offered a better life than dying dirt poor in the picturesque slum which was the countryside. I wish there were a better way to spread the benefits of industrialisation - and the decent earning power that goes with it - globally, but this appears to be the least worst method on the available evidence. The PRC's own 'alternative' experiments under the 'leader of immortal memory' just one of many failed theoretically 'better' ways.

It is perhaps true to say that the 'benefits of industrialisation'. spread, gradually, to ordinary working people in the UK, getting them out of those appalling conditions, because a lot of people were not happy to 'live with that on their conscience', so they protested, boycotted and unionised, in the teeth of vested interests who asserted that there was 'no alternative', and any sort of regulation would destroy industry.

Perhaps it is worth considering the ethical side of this situation.

[pointstaken]

Seems to me that comparing the PRC to industrialisation in the UK is comparing chalk and cheese. "Panorama" as a source of information ?

 

Dennis

[johnarcher]

Seems to me that comparing the PRC to industrialisation in the UK is comparing chalk and cheese. "Panorama" as a source of information I would feel is somewhat dubious.

 

Dennis

There is some similarity, people worked long hours in awful conditions for little money in the early industrial UK, isn't that what is being suggested is the case in some of the Far East now?

I think that has been reported by other sources than Panorama, do you have some less dubious information?

[Barry O]

If the workforce were given improved conditions of employment and the factories were brought up to spec the quality of the product might improve..reducing overheads and delays...major problem is that they can't read an engineering drawing (or rather they can went it suites the factory owners) and seem incapable of changing a protype before moving into production... Not tolerated in other manufacturing plants in the west. But...everyone is convinced using China as a manufacturing base red CDs costs...I am not at all sure that I that is the case.

 

A major problem for people who make use of these factories is the cost/ability to move tooling elsewhere...as Hornby found out.

 

Time to use a bit of engineering nouse to see if the operation could be streamlined and that doesn't just mean moving to cheaper labour - that is a bean counters' short term view..no look at the whole process and design and build it to a high quality using a lot more engineer driven decision making.

Baz

[Ozexpatriate]

I am happy to do so. People flocked to the appalling conditions of the cities of the industrialising UK, because it offered a better life than dying dirt poor in the picturesque slum which was the countryside.

In an historical long view, I think that's a pretty fair comparison and relatively poor working conditions in the UK (by today's standards) lasted into the middle of the 20th century. The urbanization trend in China is following what happened in 19th century Britain.

 

It always surprises me that the second largest English speaking city in the world in the 1770s was Philadelphia.

 

It will be interesting to see what working conditions in China are like in 2050 (and whether there will be many manufacturing jobs left there by then).

[petethemole]

relatively poor working conditions in the UK (by today's standards) lasted into the middle of the 20th century.

 

The working and living conditions endured by those who migrated to the industrial towns of the British Industrial Revolution were considerably worse. Conditions in the first half of the 20th century were an improvement won by protest, unionisation and the efforts of the more philanthropic industrialists.  I don't think the conditions for Chinese workers in general are as bad as in late18th/early 19th century Britain. A closer parallel might be the garment workers of South and South-east Asia.

 

And recent court cases have shown that ruthless exploitation and dreadful conditions are still being inflicted on a small minority of the UK workforce including vulnerable British people as well as illegal and trafficked immigrants.

 

Pete

[johnarcher]

Mind you, to say that conditions for Chinese workers are not quite as bad as those that exploited, killed and maimed large numbers of British workers in the 18th and 19th centuries is not really saying much.

[APOLLO]

Crewe works grinding shop 1913

 

 

Brit15

[Pugsley]

You'd definitely be very careful to make sure that didn't dig in while you were doing that!

[Bernard Lamb]

Does anyone know whether this applies only to the products of Bachmann, Hornby etc., or is any etching or casting for kits and components done there?

Going by what was in the program the problem lies with tin manufacturing as much as in work on making finished products. On that score pretty well all of us use solder. Traceability? Very difficult.

Going back a while a Chinese delegation visited LLanwern steel works. At the time their were some old wooden sheds on site going back I believe to war time. The Chinese enquired if that was where the workers lived. As for Apple being better or worse than other companies I don't think one program provides sufficient data to reach a conclusion.

Bernard

[highpeak]

A few years ago the football team I coached (amateur adult women) wanted to buy new kit. I spent an evening trying to determine which of the available vendors could be counted on to provide products that we could have a reasonable belief were not made in sweatshop conditions. Given that the players were women and the workers making the shirts were for the most part women, this was an important consideration for some of the players on the team.

After an exhaustive search of the internet I was unable to find any suppliers at the time who had been independently verified as sourcing their products from suppliers who provided decent working conditions for their workforce. We reluctantly ended up buying Nike, given that their products offered the best fit in the opinion of the players.

 

The only significant vendor doing business in the USA I found at the time that appeared to have a strong commitment to decent working conditions was the Danish company Select, whose product line back then did not, as I recall, include shirts and shorts. They did and do have a commitment to sourcing footballs that are not made using child labor, a major problem with hand stitched balls, and we generally used those balls.

 

As this episode revealed, it is very difficult to exercise consumer choices to avoid purchasing products made in conditions that we would not accept for ourselves. I do not believe that the kind of conditions prevailing in many parts of the world are in some way inevitable or an immutable part of economic development. One of the driving forces behind the shifting of production overseas has been the ability to reduce costs by avoiding the legislation and regulations that have been fought for and won over the years in developed countries. This laissez-faire approach is a deliberate course of action on the part of politicians and business people who write trade agreements and business contracts and to pretend otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

 

I'm not sure how much small companies like the different model manufacturers can be expected to do to promote change. On the other hand, very large companies such as Apple and Walmart could be much stronger forces for change if they so chose. How much influence we can bring to bear either as consumers or voters would seem to be insignificant in comparison.