RMweb Premium petethemole Posted December 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2014 Going back a while a Chinese delegation visited LLanwern steel works. At the time their were some old wooden sheds on site going back I believe to war time. The Chinese enquired if that was where the workers lived. It's quite possible that the delegates believed that in the dreadful capitalist West the workers lived in worse conditions than in the glorious, etc PRC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 ....ABS who can give you a prickly destructive review of anything and everything so I will wait for his in depth review of the Chinese..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 20, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 20, 2014 Crewe works grinding shop 1913 Brit15 Things didn't seem to have changed much, except for a pair of goggles, 50 years later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Crewe works grinding shop 1913 Brit15 Behind that picture you have to look at what his employers, the LNWR, provided for their workforce at Crewe. Housing, schools, a hospital, Workman's Institute, town park, etc., The Victorian/Edwardian "upper classes" weren't always very philanthropic, but some did see the benefits of having and retaining a healthy, skilled and loyal workforce. I am not so sure that applies in the Far East to the same degree, central and local government now being seen by employers as responsible for those social benefits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Behind that picture you have to look at what his employers, the LNWR, provided for their workforce at Crewe. Housing, schools, a hospital, Workman's Institute, town park, etc., The Victorian/Edwardian "upper classes" weren't always very philanthropic, but some did see the benefits of having and retaining a healthy, skilled and loyal workforce. I am not so sure that applies in the Far East to the same degree, central and local government now being seen by employers as responsible for those social benefits. That's true, but it was only some who did see the sense in doing that (Port Sunlight etc), others provided the lethal working conditions without any compensating benefits, and it took a long time for the government to fill in the gap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheffield Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 I do not think the utopia of which you speak can ever be achieved. The planet does not have sufficient resources for every one to have a "Western" type lifestyle. And even if by some magic that problem was overcome, every one would still be "poor" as goods produced factories with "Western" costs would be too expensive for people to buy in sufficient numbers to keep every one employed. Increasing wages would just push up prices. It is a circle that can not be broken. Further, this problem will only get worse as the world population increases. If China goes "up" it will be at the expense of others who will have to go "Down". And are not many people in Britain finding themselves worse off compared with their parents? Money, ie wages, have no value in themselves, they just represent other resources, which are finite. A good war, wiping out half or more of the population may make a difference, as resources would have to be shared out amongst fewer people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dickerson Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 A good war, wiping out half or more of the population may make a difference, as resources would have to be shared out amongst fewer people. There's a Rev. Malthus outside who wants a word, Will the drop in the price of oil affect manufacturing costs? If so I could suggest where the money should go... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 That's true, but it was only some who did see the sense in doing that (Port Sunlight etc), others provided the lethal working conditions without any compensating benefits, and it took a long time for the government to fill in the gap.'Tis true, but it was still on the employers terms- Bournville might have been a chocolate box utopia, but there wasn't a Pub. I'm waiting for part 2 of the documentary where they look at working conditions within the British retail sector might be a good one, I don't usually boycott a lot of things but shopping on Boxing day is one. We'd be better off looking after conditions at home, instead of going on a crusade akin to the religious missionaries who spread the gospel to lesser developed populations who were literally living in paradise, but then told if they didn't behave in a certain worshipful manner they'd go to Hell... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 That is one serious bit of grinding going off there! If he falls over, that would presumably become "bump and grind". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 'Tis true, but it was still on the employers terms- Bournville might have been a chocolate box utopia, but there wasn't a Pub. I'm waiting for part 2 of the documentary where they look at working conditions within the British retail sector might be a good one, I don't usually boycott a lot of things but shopping on Boxing day is one. We'd be better off looking after conditions at home, instead of going on a crusade akin to the religious missionaries who spread the gospel to lesser developed populations who were literally living in paradise, but then told if they didn't behave in a certain worshipful manner they'd go to Hell... I agree with your first sentence - the employers exercised a sort of totalitarian paternalism. Stiil maybe better than those who only exercised their rights to extract as much from their workers as possible. You are also right about the retail sector, but I don't see the relevance of the missionaries, we're hardly talking about people abroad who are living in paradise. Or about a crusade, just wondering how these things are produced. This started with wondering if any of the model-producing factories are comparable to the one on Panorama. If they are, the facts that 150 years ago British workers maybe endured even worse, or that Utopia isn't possible, are hardly relevant. No-one is talking about Utopia or perfection, and one hopes the world is becoming a slightly more civilised place than 150 years ago - they had abominations like bear baiting, no votes or jobs for women and the gauge conversion of 1892. When campaigning started to improve the conditions of those British workers vested interests protested that it was economic necessity, any thought of change was utopianism and a ruinous interference with the rights of employers (and with the 'right' of children to earn what they could by hauling trolleys in mines, or crawling under unguarded machinery in cotton mills). Also that the workers could hardly expect a western middle class lifestyle so unfortunately nothing could be done. Yet it could, and was, eventually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 but I don't see the relevance of the missionaries, we're hardly talking about people abroad who are living in paradise. Or about a crusade, just wondering how these things are produced. The relevance between Missionaries and those who think we ought to know about the subject of the Panorama documentary is comparable as neither really ought to be championing what they deem to be wrong and is based on the belief that their way is perfect, I'm not saying change shouldn't happen but it has to be gradual, suddenly creating a manufacturing boom and a middle class consumerism driven society as happened in China only risks hyper-inflation and shortens the life span of economy as costs increase and the more developed economies look for new cheaper suppliers. Evolution has always been a slow process, Vietnam ended up with quite an advanced private transport system that worked really well, until someone realised there was an opportunity to sell more cars in the emerging market, and the end result probably resulted in a net loss in lifestyle standards, even when they're told they've never had it so good... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 The relevance between Missionaries and those who think we ought to know about the subject of the Panorama documentary is comparable as neither really ought to be championing what they deem to be wrong and is based on the belief that their way is perfect, I'm not saying change shouldn't happen but it has to be gradual, suddenly creating a manufacturing boom and a middle class consumerism driven society as happened in China only risks hyper-inflation and shortens the life span of economy as costs increase and the more developed economies look for new cheaper suppliers. Evolution has always been a slow process, Vietnam ended up with quite an advanced private transport system that worked really well, until someone realised there was an opportunity to sell more cars in the emerging market, and the end result probably resulted in a net loss in lifestyle standards, even when they're told they've never had it so good... Sorry but you appear to be self-contradictory. You berate investigative journalism (which was actually driven by Apple's boast, not Chinese culture per se) for "championing what they deem to be wrong" and yet proscribe another solution yourself, also criticising what the Chinese have done with their economy. Is it that you feel more right than they? There is a theme to the various investigations into poor working conditions and human rights abroad, within the context of cheap goods being produced for the benefit of a world wide middle class. It challenges the "acceptance" of the myth that we have to do the same in order to remain competitive, which suits all those who stand to benefit, but not the vast majority who don't. It has no parallels with 19thC colonialist missionary zeal whatsoever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 'Tis true, but it was still on the employers terms- Bournville might have been a chocolate box utopia, but there wasn't a Pub. I'm waiting for part 2 of the documentary where they look at working conditions within the British retail sector might be a good one, I don't usually boycott a lot of things but shopping on Boxing day is one. We'd be better off looking after conditions at home, instead of going on a crusade akin to the religious missionaries who spread the gospel to lesser developed populations who were literally living in paradise, but then told if they didn't behave in a certain worshipful manner they'd go to Hell... I find it ironic that, when the tv news present pictures of the rush into the stores when the doors open for the "New Year" sales, the buyers very much in evidence would seem to be mainly from those Far Eastern countries of which we speak. Perhaps they got the message from the missionaries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 The relevance between Missionaries and those who think we ought to know about the subject of the Panorama documentary is comparable as neither really ought to be championing what they deem to be wrong and is based on the belief that their way is perfect, I'm not saying change shouldn't happen but it has to be gradual, suddenly creating a manufacturing boom and a middle class consumerism driven society as happened in China only risks hyper-inflation and shortens the life span of economy as costs increase and the more developed economies look for new cheaper suppliers. Evolution has always been a slow process, Vietnam ended up with quite an advanced private transport system that worked really well, until someone realised there was an opportunity to sell more cars in the emerging market, and the end result probably resulted in a net loss in lifestyle standards, even when they're told they've never had it so good... Who is championing what they deem to be wrong? The whole point is criticising what they deem to be wrong. The missionaries are completely irrelevant, they probably did think their way (religion) was perfect, but no-one here has said that. This is just a question of how people feel about buying things that may be produced by exploitation and abuse of other people, about specific abuses (that even the companies involved often say shouldn't happen - though we still don't know if any of this applies to Hornby etc) not about exporting a whole western consumerist lifestyle (which is probably not even sustainable in the West long-term anyway), or sending missionaries to convert rural China or India into the South-East of England. If you don't care how people are treated to produce what you buy as cheaply as possible (or do care, but can't imagine any response short of turning the world into paradise), fine, but why not say so, rather than answering an argument that nobody ever made? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 I've not yet seen the Panorama film, but I doubt it will surprise me, knowing that greed and profit motivates most. I would expect similar situations existed/exist in other factories. It is a case of 'making hay while the sun shines'. A couple of interesting and amusing 'Ted' talks. The first, related to global developments - http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_asia_s_rise_how_and_when (and have a look at the guys web site at http://www.gapminder.org/ ) The second, perhaps, highlights a fundamental reason why folk don't care. Although specifically aimed at a particular situation. I think the principle extends to other aspects, even to pre-grouping railway modelling http://www.ted.com/talks/verna_myers_how_to_overcome_our_biases_walk_boldly_toward_them One of the interesting aspects, is that in the first talk it shows how technology/communications in particular, allows a fairly quick increase in most nations 'growth', but the second talk shows how slow it is changing wrt 'personal growth'. (I blame the parents ) Best wishes, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Well, I've just seen the Panorama film. I think it can be summarised by 'Mr. Tin' referring to 'bullsh1t Apple'. Typical corporate crap from them, reinforces the truth that 'Life is like a sh1t sandwich, the more bread you have, the less sh1t!' It won't last - China will be outsourcing to Africa, within a few years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 ....China will be outsourcing to Africa, within a few years.They have already been investing there for quite a few years. Get yourself a copy of China's Silent Army, by Cardenal and Araujo. Very revealing book. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted December 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2014 They have already been investing there for quite a few years. Going O/T The Tazara Railway was funded by the Chinese, primarily for the export of copper from Africa to China. There was a TV documentary on BBC4 on it - The African Railway. Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPR Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Hmmm, sounds like rebuilding existing models, kit-building and scratch-building might now be the way to a clear conscience and a healthy bank balance (says he, typing this on a MacBook Air ...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheQ Posted December 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2014 As 3D Printing evolves to a higher standard and for different materials, I see less need for off shore production. Whilst this may help production in the UK, does that mean there well be less chance of improvement of lifestyle for 3rd world countries. Actually this may not help UK production, as production may end up in the home. Print your own lego set for Christmas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted December 22, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 22, 2014 The Tazara Railway was funded by the Chinese, primarily for the export of copper from Africa to China. There was a TV documentary on BBC4 on it - The African Railway. AIUI the Tazara is up to its neck in debt and broken-down equipment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Print your own lego set for Christmas? I understand this is already ramping up as quite a cottage industry. It will be interesting to see how the company responds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 As 3D Printing evolves to a higher standard and for different materials, I see less need for off shore production. Whilst this may help production in the UK, does that mean there well be less chance of improvement of lifestyle for 3rd world countries. Actually this may not help UK production, as production may end up in the home. Print your own lego set for Christmas? I know little of the technicalities, but I have seen recent, massive price rises in 3D products (see the Wild Boar thread and others), primarily due to the rising cost of two of the main source "ingredients" and due to the need to cut wastage from intricate designs. I had hoped to see this grow faster, along with the quality of the finish, to enable small scale production of models or model parts for which there is limited demand, and for which brass/whitemetal construction has proved difficult. But it seems to be faltering a little right now. I hope this is just a blip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted December 25, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 25, 2014 I understand this is already ramping up as quite a cottage industry. It will be interesting to see how the company responds. When I saw the names of some of the Lego personnel I checked the date, it wasn't April 1st. (Roar Rude Trangbaek and Mads Nipper.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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