Class 800 - Updates

[royaloak]

One factor in this is that the Hitachi order books are pretty full and the only way to get the stock they needed when they needed them was to look elsewhere. It also looks like the only viable elsewhere is Stadler with nothing suitable in the offing from the usual suspects...

So its a question of what you can get rather than what you want!

 

Of course if we had a sensible long term replacement policy, yeah I know!

Edited December 26, 2016 by royaloak

[Indomitable026]

800 001 out today.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/110131-ecml-mile-post-129-photo-miscellany/?p=2553322

[Indomitable026]

5X65 Peterborough to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/110131-ecml-mile-post-129-photo-miscellany/?p=2582051

[surfsup]

It seems to be a busy week for issues with the IEP Sets. Roger Ford's Informed Sources blog had this to say this week, while it's been reported on another forum that 800004 - Which was due to run a PR run this week failed on depot with a small engine fire in North Pole.

 

Roger Ford

 

October debut for GWR IEP

Among the new trains due to start entering service this year is Great Western Railway’s Intercity Express Programme fleet.* But* when the railway technical press sat down with Hitachi management hard information on what comes next was in short supply. To an extent this was understandable.* Apart from the different Japanese business culture, many reputations are riding on the IEP, from the Department of Transport, which specified and bought it, to the multiple banks funding the trains.

 

But in the UK, we of the technical press are accustomed to asking straightforward, if awkward questions.* And if these are ducked, we just explore other channels.

*

For example, in the press release for the visit, GWR Managing Director Mark Hopwood was quoted as saying* that passengers could expect to see IEP trains ‘operating on our network next summer and in regular timetable service in autumn’. But pressed for more detail on the programme Hitachi would only repeat ‘autumn’. Informed Sources Third Law refers.

 

However, I understand that the current plan is to introduce six daily diagrams from mid October.* According to the Great Western Train Availability & Reliability Agreement with the IEP train service provider, 20 five car Class 800 Bi-mode sets should be available for service from 19 October.*

 

Acceptance

But then, how many sets will actually be available?* Another issue with no clear answer was the possible delay to electrical testing and thus acceptance.*

 

Route Section 3 (RS3)is the Great Western Main Line’s IEP* electrified test track between Reading and Didcot. Running started in July 2016 and promptly stopped when interference issues with the Overhead Line traction power supply emerged.* A second run at the end of September, with the IEP in its final electric power configuration, was also unsuccessful and since then there has been no further electrical acceptance running on RS3.

 

At the press* briefing Hitachi said that type testing was still progressing while the company was working through the electrical interference issues with Network Rail.* Yet when I asked how far back the delay to electric test running has pushed the programme, I was told ‘with the potential solutions we are looking at we don’t expect that [delayed electrical acceptance running] to have any programme impact’.*

 

Contractually the Type Acceptance date for the five car bi-mode is 2 February 2017 – in other words, next week.* And a Great Western Informed Source subsequently reported that Hitachi had claimed a 104 day delay to acceptance because of the unavailability of RS3 for electrical testing.**

*

 

Performance

Another question raised at the railway press briefing concerned long-standing query over the ability of the bi-modes to keep to IC125 timings when running under diesel power. The design maximum speed as a diesel is 100mile/h, although testing has shown the bi-mode can run faster.* Hitachi is working with GWR on end-to-end journey times to assess the impact of the bi-mode’s superior acceleration at low speeds, plus the benefit on station dwell times of the pocketed sliding power doors.*

 

 

When asked if the Class 800 engines would be restored to their full commercial output, as in the AT300 versions being supplied to GWR and TransPennine Express, Hitachi explained that with the electrified mileage expected to be available* ‘there is no requirement to change the rating of the engines’.

 

However, the immediate challenge is October this year. Airport Junction to Maidenhead is due to be energised* by June as part of the Crossrail programme: Reading-Didcot follows in* December. Assuming electric operation to Didcot, diesel running would be limited to the remaining 63 miles to Bristol Temple Meads via Bristol Parkway.

 

 

Of course, the easy way out in October would be to allocate the IEP diagrams to the Oxford service, where they could replace* the Class 180 DMUs. Since January these have been sub-leased by GWR from* Grand Central for four months.

 

So many unanswered questions, such as why has no one* bothered to establish the balancing speed of a five car bi-mode on level track?* And what sort of IEP timetable is planned for October?* Frustrating, but I will keep on beavering away.

[EdChap]

Interesting, a small fire under a Class 230 unit and loads of people are writing it off and wishing it dead. Now we read that a Class 800 has had a small fire under it and there are no comments made about it. Strange.

[The Stationmaster]

Uncle Roger can always be relied on to bring out the issues I find (and have found over the years) although in this case some of them are rather critical.

 

And somebody is going to have to be quick as the Timetable Planning Rules for December are supposed to be published on 03 February (er next week) which is going to be rather awkward if running times for Class 800 have not been validated by then although presumably 'computer' based times should have been available sometime back.

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting, a small fire under a Class 230 unit and loads of people are writing it off and wishing it dead. Now we read that a Class 800 has had a small fire under it and there are no comments made about it. Strange.

 

I only look at this forum and for all I know it might have already collected 20 pages of comment elsewhere (or it might not) and the 230 fire was subject of considerable 'public exposure' in the media so from that alone is likely to have provoked far more comment.

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....Which was due to run a PR run this week failed on depot with a small engine fire in North Pole.

 

 

 

Interesting, a small fire under a Class 230 unit and loads of people are writing it off and wishing it dead. Now we read that a Class 800 has had a small fire under it and there are no comments made about it. Strange.

 

 

False news?

From another forum and from someone who was on the train in question; it appears the reports of a small engine fire are false.

There was no engine fire, but a warning system was triggered, or technical glitch occurred that halted the test.

(note it wasn't a PR run).

Apparently, after a quick safety check, the train moved forward to Southall for a closer inspection, where nothing was found.

The test was "canned" and the train returned to North Pole. After full investigations and checks, the unit returned to the test programme a couple of days later.

The report says that the aborted test is to be re-run next week.

 

 

.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[surfsup]

False news?

From another forum and from someone who was on the train in question; it appears the reports of a small engine fire are false.

There was no engine fire, but a warning system was triggered, or technical glitch occurred that halted the test.

(note it wasn't a PR run).

Apparently, after a quick safety check, the train moved forward to Southall for a closer inspection, where nothing was found.

The test was "canned" and the train returned to North Pole. After full investigations and checks, the unit returned to the test programme a couple of days later.

The report says that the aborted test is to be re-run next week.

 

 

.

Indeed it seems it was a false report. It does however raise another issue with the unit - from the perceived Electrical interference issues in the Dicot test section to false fire alarm activations. I suppose these things are expected to happen as part of the testing stage, however it does add as another setback for these units. Not least when the questions over their top speed on Diesel vs their incumbents will still remain.

[royaloak]

Does anyone know how the loaded (with dumpy bags full of sand) test runs went last week, I am hearing that the performance was not exactly what was expected.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Does anyone know how the loaded (with dumpy bags full of sand) test runs went last week, I am hearing that the performance was not exactly what was expected.

 

If that was a timing run, then I'm lead to believe that's what the aborted test was due to carry out.

It stands to reason then, that "performance was not exactly what was expected", as the test didn't actually take place.

 

 

.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[The Stationmaster]

Indeed it seems it was a false report. It does however raise another issue with the unit - from the perceived Electrical interference issues in the Dicot test section to false fire alarm activations. I suppose these things are expected to happen as part of the testing stage, however it does add as another setback for these units. Not least when the questions over their top speed on Diesel vs their incumbents will still remain.

 

It's train undergoing testing and from what has crept into the public arena in testing terms it all sounds relatively unexciting and commonplace for a test programme.   The electrical interference issues - whatever they are - will have an awful long way to go in terms of clocking up problems if they are to come even close to Eurostar Class 373 sets let alone a Class 92.  Test programmes are with us to reveal problems - not to hide them.

[Coryton]

It's train undergoing testing and from what has crept into the public arena in testing terms it all sounds relatively unexciting and commonplace for a test programme.   The electrical interference issues - whatever they are - will have an awful long way to go in terms of clocking up problems if they are to come even close to Eurostar Class 373 sets let alone a Class 92.  Test programmes are with us to reveal problems - not to hide them.

 

Well if the DfT is looking for justifications for not extending electrification, there's another one...trains on diesel power tend to interfere somewhat less with the signalling...

[modfather]

Good rumour making.

 

004 is on stoke Gifford. No fire here unless I've missed something watching driver training.

Edited January 27, 2017 by modfather

[royaloak]

If that was a timing run, then I'm lead to believe that's what the aborted test was due to carry out.

It stands to reason then, that "performance was not exactly what was expected", as the test didn't actually take place.

 

 

.

The one you are on about was oop Lundun way, I am on about the runs from Bristol the week before.

[royaloak]

Good rumour making.

 

004 is on stoke Gifford. No fire here unless I've missed something watching driver training.

It was a fire ALARM activation not an actual fire.

[The Stationmaster]

Well if the DfT is looking for justifications for not extending electrification, there's another one...trains on diesel power tend to interfere somewhat less with the signalling...

 

Possibly, and usually probably - but it depends on the exact nature of the electrical set-up on the train but what is lost with diesel power is whatever occurs at the interface between the fixed power conductor system and the means of current collection on the train and transforming it to the voltage the train requires.

[SwissRailPassion]

We hardly hear any of this on the BBC or Sky. NR's flagship project and 'The greatest investment since Victorian times' is in tatters and the entire electrification programme in ruins. The contract for IEP begins very soon and the government will be paying for trains on a daily rate as they stand in the sidings. All this was predicted three or four years ago and it is coming true in slow motion.

[phil-b259]

We hardly hear any of this on the BBC or Sky. NR's flagship project and 'The greatest investment since Victorian times' is in tatters and the entire electrification programme in ruins. The contract for IEP begins very soon and the government will be paying for trains on a daily rate as they stand in the sidings. All this was predicted three or four years ago and it is coming true in slow motion.

 

But will they? he Government will only be paying for said trains if they are fully tested and authorised for passenger operations. By the sound of things Hitachi are encountering problems during testing - and until those problems have been solved its extremely unlikely the DfT will have to pay anything.

 

Would you start paying hire charges for a new car even though its still undergoing tests and fails them delaying when you get your hands on it?

[royaloak]

But will they? he Government will only be paying for said trains if they are fully tested and authorised for passenger operations. By the sound of things Hitachi are encountering problems during testing - and until those problems have been solved its extremely unlikely the DfT will have to pay anything.

 

Would you start paying hire charges for a new car even though its still undergoing tests and fails them delaying when you get your hands on it?

Last I heard was 104 days behind on the testing programme.

[jjb1970]

Unless DafT really have taken stupidity to a new level then the contract will define the acceptance criteria and milestones to trigger payments. There will also be liquidated damage provisions for late delivery or poor performance.

[Coryton]

Unless DafT really have taken stupidity to a new level then the contract will define the acceptance criteria and milestones to trigger payments. There will also be liquidated damage provisions for late delivery or poor performance.

 

Could all get interesting...if acceptance is delayed because the infrastructure (electrification) wasn't complete on time....

[4630]

Unless DafT really have taken stupidity to a new level then the contract will define the acceptance criteria and milestones to trigger payments. There will also be liquidated damage provisions for late delivery or poor performance.

It would be great to have confidence in DafT and their contract negotiators wouldn't it?

 

Based solely on Modern Railways respected Industry and Technical Editor Roger Ford's comments previously though, I suspect that the contract will probably be seriously deficient in the key areas that you highlight.

 

After all, it seems that DafT has managed to negotiate leasing costs that are disproportionately expensive compared with what First Group has been able to negotiate subsequently for their order. To say nothing of the contract variation costs now being incurred with the increased number of bi-mode units being ordered.

Edited January 29, 2017 by 4630

[jjb1970]

It would be great to have confidence in DafT and their contract negotiators wouldn't it?

 

Based solely on Modern Railways respected Industry and Technical Editor Roger Ford's comments previously though, I suspect that the contract will probably be seriously deficient in the key areas that you highlight.

 

After all, it seems that DafT has managed to negotiate leasing costs that are disproportionately expensive compared with what First Group has been able to negotiate subsequently. To say nothing of the contract variation costs now being incurred with the increased number of bi-mode units being ordered.

 

I admit that does worry me. The government in general doesn't have the best of track records when it comes to negotiating contracts.

[Coryton]

After all, it seems that DafT has managed to negotiate leasing costs that are disproportionately expensive compared with what First Group has been able to negotiate subsequently for their order. To say nothing of the contract variation costs now being incurred with the increased number of bi-mode units being ordered.

 

I don't know that in itself the fact that First have done a better deal means the original negotiation was flawed.

 

If Hitachi made sure their development costs were entirely covered by the DfT order since there was no guarantee of any later follow-ons, they could still do quite nicely for later orders and charge quite a bit less.