Class 800 - Updates

[4630]

A few more of the shots I took at Eastleigh on Tuesday this week. It will be interesting to see if this is a one off trip by an 800 or whether it becomes a regular event. 

 

Godfrey

 

 

 

 

On that basis it would seem reasonable to assume that further class 800 trips are likely over the coming weeks.

 

 

Following on from Godfrey's posts of photos of 800109 at Eastleigh on 4th September, it looks as though another set will be moving to Eastleigh on 8th September;

 

5X80 Doncaster Carr IEP Depot to Acton Main Line   http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10116/2018/09/08/advanced

 

5X81 Acton Main Line to Eastleigh TRSMD   http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10117/2018/09/08/advanced

[SouthernMafia]

First 9-car 802 in service last week, 802101 working 1C04 07:30 Pad-Pnz and is working the same train today.

[SouthernMafia]

East Coast Azuma trains thwarted by northern track - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-45435683

[Zomboid]

Nice bit of finger pointing by both parties there.

Though if just about every other electric train can operate without causing dangerous EMC issues, I can't quite see how it's not Hitachi's problem. They might have had a case on the GWML, but not the ECML.

[jamie92208]

It's interesting that they can't even get a picture of an Azuma and show a 40 year old HST.   There is an update in Modern Railways and apparently talks to come up with a solution are still ongoing.

 

Jamie

[iands]

Nice bit of finger pointing by both parties there.

Though if just about every other electric train can operate without causing dangerous EMC issues, I can't quite see how it's not Hitachi's problem. They might have had a case on the GWML, but not the ECML.

The "screening wire" on the north main line was stolen many years ago and not replaced. My understanding is that without the screening wire the electrical interference produced by the "91s" etc. (which is then induced into the lineside copper cables) is just below the acceptable threshold. However, the electrical interference produced by the Azumas is well above the acceptable threshold. Rumour has it, that even with a screening conductor, the interference from the Azumas would still be above the acceptable threshold.

 

Regards, Ian.

[iands]

It's interesting that they can't even get a picture of an Azuma and show a 40 year old HST.   There is an update in Modern Railways and apparently talks to come up with a solution are still ongoing.

 

Jamie

There are two pictures of Azumas, as well as the HST, in the BBC article. Did you open all of the article?

 

Regards, Ian.

[jamie92208]

There are two pictures of Azumas, as well as the HST, in the BBC article. Did you open all of the article?

 

Regards, Ian.

 

Thanks Ian, not all photos open over in France but I've had a look and things make a bit more sense now picture wise.

 

Jamie

[iands]

.... not all photos open over in France .....

 

Hi Jamie,

 

Has Brexit started early then?

 

Regards, Ian.

[St. Simon]

East Coast Azuma trains thwarted by northern track - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-45435683

 

Hi,

 

Just to note at this point is that some of the 'teething' problems mentioned by Grayling, the axle counter problems experienced at Reading and Chosley, were actually faults in the axle counters not the trains (although the problem was increased by the IEPs).

 

Simon

[Coryton]

East Coast Azuma trains thwarted by northern track - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-45435683

 

The quotes by Lord Adonis do read rather oddly. Essentially he's been written as saying "I ordered the trains that don't work with the signalling system and it's Chris Grayling's fault for not finding a way of making them work".

 

(I suspect he didn't actually order them personally, but that's what the article said).

[4630]

Interestingly 5 car 801101 and 801102 were operating in multiple on the Airedale Line to Skipton today using the OHLE.

 

I wonder if a decision has been made to do the testing and mileage accumulation 'under the wires' on this line where there would appear to be are no signal interference issues and it's probably easier to get paths approved, as well as on those parts of the ECML where the units are permitted to use OHLE.

 

801102 leads 801101 through Kirkstall Forge with 5X83, 12.07 Leeds to Skipton...

 

 

...and now with 801101 leading 801102 on the return run, 5X84 13.29 Skipton to Doncaster Carr IEP Depot.

 

 

 

Identical runs are in the schedule for 11th September, for any one local along the route who wants a butchers.

 

5X81 08.27 Doncaster Carr IEP Depot to Skipton http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10123/2018/09/11/advanced

 

5X82 10.53 Skipton to Leeds http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10124/2018/09/11/advanced

 

5X83 11.47 Leeds to Skipton http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10127/2018/09/11/advanced

 

5X84 12.59 Skipton to Doncaster Carr IEP Depot http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10128/2018/09/11/advanced

Edited September 12, 2018 by 4630

[ess1uk]

The "screening wire" on the north main line was stolen many years ago and not replaced. My understanding is that without the screening wire the electrical interference produced by the "91s" etc. (which is then induced into the lineside copper cables) is just below the acceptable threshold. However, the electrical interference produced by the Azumas is well above the acceptable threshold. Rumour has it, that even with a screening conductor, the interference from the Azumas would still be above the acceptable threshold.

Regards, Ian.

Time to go optical

[iands]

Time to go optical

The telecoms infrastructure supporting signalling on the north main line has been Fibre Optic cable for well over 20 years, with diverse routes via microwave, initially the microwave went all they between York and Tweedmouth, but was cut back to Newcastle in the early 2000s. Obviously the "local" cables connecting lineside signal and telecoms equipment to the transmission "nodes" is on copper cable which is being affected by the induced interference. I take the point that it would help greatly if all the "signalling" connections could be via FO cable, but I can't see it happening soon. The logistics of such could be reasonably achieved, but the finances to fund it would be an issue. So no doubt we will get a compromised solution (i.e. less than ideal techincally, but affordable) until the next major resignalling of the north main line is sanctioned.

 

Regards, Ian.

[Mark Saunders]

The telecoms infrastructure supporting signalling on the north main line has been Fibre Optic cable for well over 20 years, with diverse routes via microwave, initially the microwave went all they between York and Tweedmouth, but was cut back to Newcastle in the early 2000s. Obviously the "local" cables connecting lineside signal and telecoms equipment to the transmission "nodes" is on copper cable which is being affected by the induced interference. I take the point that it would help greatly if all the "signalling" connections could be via FO cable, but I can't see it happening soon. The logistics of such could be reasonably achieved, but the finances to fund it would be an issue. So no doubt we will get a compromised solution (i.e. less than ideal techincally, but affordable) until the next major resignalling of the north main line is sanctioned.

 

Regards, Ian.

 

The main benefit of fibre optic was that it has no scrap value and when it was installed on the East Coast in about 1990 the S&T were leaving bits lying around so it could be examined by those looking to relocate it!

 

Mark Saunders

[iands]

The main benefit of fibre optic was that it has no scrap value and when it was installed on the East Coast in about 1990 the S&T were leaving bits lying around so it could be examined by those looking to relocate it!

 

Mark Saunders

I'm not sure the main benefit of FO cable is "no scrap value" (I can think of several others), though I admit it is a happy coincidence.

 

Regards, Ian.

[phil-b259]

Interestingly 5 car 801101 and 801102 were operating in multiple on the Airevale Line to Skipton today using the OHLE.

 

I wonder if a decision has been made to do the testing and mileage accumulation 'under the wires' on this line where there would appear to be are no signal interference issues and it's probably easier to get paths approved, as well as on those parts of the ECML where the units are permitted to use OHLE.

 

 

Somethings obviously changed then since the wires went up - when the line was electrified in the last few years of BR it was most definitely done as an suburban EMU only* style scheme and InterCity services from Bradford had to remain in the hands of HSTs as the OHE wouldn't cope with the power drawn by the 91s.

 

* As was Royston - Cambridge, the MML (which requires significant work to make it suitable for 125mph bi-nodes) and various GE branch lines.

Edited September 10, 2018 by phil-b259

[jamie92208]

Somethings obviously changed then since the wires went up - when the line was electrified in the last few years of BR it was most definitely done as an suburban EMU only* style scheme and InterCity services from Bradford had to remain in the hands of HSTs as the OHE wouldn't cope with the power drawn by the 91s.

 

* As was Royston - Cambridge, the MML (which requires significant work to make it suitable for 125mph bi-nodes) and various GE branch lines.

 

I can't remember the details but I believe that there has been some sort of upgrade to the power supply on the Shipley to Skipton section.   Leeds to Bradford via Shipley had regular 91 hauled services from the start.

 

Jamie

Edited September 11, 2018 by jamie92208

[Zomboid]

The feeder station at Bingley was a pretty feeble affair, but it's possible to upgrade some by simply amending the connection agreement to allow the railway to take more power. Though not always, actual infrastructure changes can also be needed.

 

Could also be that it's only electric locos which are not permitted, and 800s count as EMUs.

[31A]

I can't remember the details but I believe that there has been some sort of upgrade to the power supply on the Shipley to Skipton section.   Leeds to Bradford via Shipley had regular 91 hauled services from the start.

 

Jamie

 

That's correct, there was, maybe 5 or 6 years ago and since then the Skipton-King's Cross has been electrically hauled instead of HST.

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y73789/2018/09/11/advanced

[The Stationmaster]

The B&H is a mess from Somerton Tunnel to Castle Cary, you could have a train with the best suspension in the World and it would still throw you around, the track and embankments are the problem not the train.

 

Technically, and on a point of geographical exactitude Somerton to Castle Cary is not on the Berks & Hants and never was  (the B&H terminated at Hungerford although the BHL route code includes the Berks & Hants Extension so goes as far as Patney & Chrirton).

 

Anyone from that part of the world railway wise would be very confused to hear of the Langport Cut-off, in reality the Castle Cary - Langport line, route code CCL, being referred to as the B&H; the route code now extends to Cogload.   The BHL code ends at Patney where it changes to SWY (Stert and Westbury) which in turn ends at Westbury station where it changes to WEY (for Wilts & Weymouth) or at Heywoord Road where it changes to WES for the Westbury Avoiding Line to Fairwood.  Staff working in the area never referred to anything west of Westbury as 'the B&H' because it very definitely wasn't and never had been.  Similarly the Stert & Westbury was usually referred to as  'the Lavington cut-off' because the B&H Extension went, of course, to Devizes. 

 

I know things have changed but i wonder what Westbury Signalmen would make of Castle Cary - Somerton being referred to as the B&H - one or two who were in Westbury panel would I reckon be less than polite when hearing that.

[The Stationmaster]

East Coast Azuma trains thwarted by northern track - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-45435683

 

And in the meanwhile Lord Adonis yet again proves he hasn't got a clue about what he is talking about.  Generally interference issues only emerge during testing, whatever people thought they had done in the design, and of course the point is that the train should be compatible with the infrastructure which it is intended to run over and designed accordingly including taking account of potential interference issues. 

 

There were no major interference issues with Eurostar sets on the ECML north of Newcastle and the 373s are pretty good at pumping out some electromagnetic interference.  The only problem with them was current draw and the power supplies were strengthened, at Eurostar project expense, to deal with that. But overall one particular type of track circuit (Aster I think) had to be changed to cope with 373 electromagnetic emissions and that was done on numerous routes.

[iands]

And in the meanwhile Lord Adonis yet again proves he hasn't got a clue about what he is talking about.  Generally interference issues only emerge during testing, whatever people thought they had done in the design, and of course the point is that the train should be compatible with the infrastructure which it is intended to run over and designed accordingly including taking account of potential interference issues. 

 

There were no major interference issues with Eurostar sets on the ECML north of Newcastle and the 373s are pretty good at pumping out some electromagnetic interference.  The only problem with them was current draw and the power supplies were strengthened, at Eurostar project expense, to deal with that. But overall one particular type of track circuit (Aster I think) had to be changed to cope with 373 electromagnetic emissions and that was done on numerous routes.

 

Hi Mike,

 

I seem to recall that the GNER White Rose set (a hired-in Eurostar) was banned north of York due to clearance issues, but was cleared for the Leeds - Kings Cross route (hence the White Rose tag). Did any 373s venture north of York, even if only for testing purposes?

 

Regards, Ian.

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike,

 

I seem to recall that the GNER White Rose set (a hired-in Eurostar) was banned north of York due to clearance issues, but was cleared for the Leeds - Kings Cross route (hence the White Rose tag). Did any 373s venture north of York, even if only for testing purposes?

 

Regards, Ian.run never took plac e (because I ga

 

Yes Ian.  The power supply work was - reportedly - completed but some of the physical clearance work wasn't, for example Newcastle was only (very) partially dealt with.  I think a set might well have ventured north of York but I know the full filming run never took place (because I had bagged the 'secondman's' seat - for location advising - on the filming helicopter for that job so I missed out in a big way  ).

[Mark Saunders]

Yes Ian.  The power supply work was - reportedly - completed but some of the physical clearance work wasn't, for example Newcastle was only (very) partially dealt with.  I think a set might well have ventured north of York but I know the full filming run never took place (because I had bagged the 'secondman's' seat - for location advising - on the filming helicopter for that job so I missed out in a big way  ).

 

There was work clearance work done on the down platform at Darlington and a class 373 stop board installed!

 

There were also power related speed restrictions south of York that were in the Sectional Appendix.

 

Mark Saunders