Hornby. Availability of pre-nationalisation rolling stock

[Robin Brasher]

Now that corridor coaches from three out of the four Big Four pre-nationalisation railway companies are only available in the Railroad range and a similar situation exists for goods wagons we need to source the supplies from model shops and on the second hand market for high quality Hornby Big Four rolling stock.

 

 

[Ozexpatriate]

Now that corridor coaches from three out of the four Big Four pre-nationalisation railway companies are only available in the Railroad range and a similar situation exists for goods wagons we need to source the supplies from model shops and on the second hand market for high quality Hornby Big Four rolling stock.

Robin, that's quite true, but Hornby has announced LMS non-gangwayed coaches with a estimated delivery of September and (collectively) we have griped for years about a lack of non-gangwayed coaching stock.

 

Once upon a time their approach was to have a composite + brake third available every year and provide a new running number for each as a re-release.

 

With the excellent Maunsell coaches you illustrate they broke away from the old way and produced a wide variety sufficient to build more representative trains. These certainly were popular. I was surprised by

1. the rapidity with which they introduced alternative running numbers - many in the first and second year of production and then
2. how quickly they shut down production (of the pre-nationalisation liveries). (I think they got to the "F" or "G" variants on the part number (RxxxxA etc) in the second year.

Other than some high window variants we haven't seen these since.

 

Bachmann meanwhile has announced LNER Thompson teaks and the SECR Birdcage stock, but I would be surprised to see the SECR stock in 2015, despite their being announced a couple of years ago. Bachmann also announced a reissue of their Collett stock in Hawksworth livery. Bachmann, who are usually excellent in communicating availability are quite silent on this item.

 

The coach availability issue is not confined to Hornby.

 

Are you advocating that Hornby return to the drip feed composite + brake third approach with a new running number each year?

 

With the way production is managed today, I can't see how either big supplier would try to keep a wide range of coaches for every company available in the range every year.

 

Perhaps Oxford Rail may take coaches on, but I haven't seen interest from other suppliers or commissioners for coaches - likely due to opportunity cost/profitability issues.

[Robin Brasher]

Hornby has told me that it will definitely be producing more corridor pre nationalisation stock in the future. Meanwhile I find it interesting to see how the old stock sells, which items remain on the shelves and what happens to the prices.

 

At my nearest model shop the remaining Hornby corridor coaches to a pre-nationalisation design are the Maunsell 1st class corridor coaches in malachite green and in crimson and cream and the BR maroon Hawksworth coaches.

[Ozexpatriate]

At my nearest model shop the remaining Hornby corridor coaches to a pre-nationalisation design are the Maunsell 1st class corridor coaches in malachite green and in crimson and cream and the BR maroon Hawksworth coaches.

And crimson and cream and BR maroon are hardly pre-nationalization liveries!

 

Presuming that at least some people run pre-nationalization passenger locomotives, (and yes I know that many live on shelves) there is a market for pre-nationalization coaches. This seems to be evident in your observation.

[trevor7598]

This is a subject that all the r t r. manufacturers need to get a grip on!.There is a whole world out there of coaching stock that

has never been done. Dining cars are a good example, nothing for GWR , SR or LMS (only the old Dapol 12 wheeler).

I am not counting some of the 'toys' from the past here.

Pre grouping types have hardly been touched, and many had very long lives ( lots of liveries for that expensive tooling ).

Maybe if Bachmann's Birdcage stock sells well it will point the way ahead for others. Kernows Gate stock should also

be a good pointer,to see if our money is where our mouths are !!.

Talking of Kernow , there is nothing to run behind their Isle of Wight O2, hint , hint.

[coachmann]

When coaches are left on shelves, it seems most folk are modelling BR despite all the talk about pre-Nationalization and even pre Grouping 'wants'. Those elaborate liveries were expensive to produce and beat anything a professional could produce in 4mm, so it's a shame they weren't snapped up. They say one cannot buck the market but there must be a number of factors at work when it comes to non-purchase of coaches. While I can easily see why first class coaches are left-overs, why are maroon Hawsworth's slow movers?

[trevor7598]

I , also cannot understand why the Hornby Hawksworth coaches did not sell , I have six and to me they are superb.

One boob Hornby did make , was the introduction of the all 1st into the range at a later date. It's always the all 1st

that stays on the shelves, but Hornby always insist we should have one.

[Hilux5972]

But if there wasn't an all 1st then people would complain that we needed one.

[sandwich station]

Being an LMS man, when it comes to Hornby's RTR Stanier stock, I was over the moon all those years ago when they were named as the first super detail coaches to be produced but I can't help feeling as time went on that the other regions got more variety. I've asked year after year in polls etc for more coaches to go with them to no avail.

 

The Bachmann portholes go someway to rectify this in BR days but as we are talking pre nationalisation nothing really exists, unless I go down coachmann's path and build my own.

[coachmann]

Hornby's investment in the LMS Stanier coaches to go on one 57' chassis does not stack up against Bachmann's 'Portholes'. A composite with a uniquely profiled body that went on a unique 60' chassis with quadruple trussing. A brake first that went on a 'normal' 60' chassis. A corridor third went on a 'normal' 57' welded chassis and a brake third with deeper sides than normal that went on a 57' welded chassis.  Bachmanns Inspection Saloon has virtually nothing in common with the LMS passenger stock, as even the solebars are differently spaced. I just hope people buy plenty of the 'Portholes' to allow Bachmann to invest in more coaches.

 

It will be interesting to see how Hornby's non-corridors turn out. Less labour intensive bogies for one. 

[sandwich station]

Hornby's investment in the LMS Stanier coaches to go on one 57' chassis does not stack up against Bachmann's 'Portholes'. A composite with a uniquely profiled body that went on a unique 60' chassis with quadruple trussing. A brake first that went on a 'normal' 60' chassis. A corridor third went on a 'normal' 57' welded chassis and a brake third with deeper sides than normal that went on a 57' welded chassis.  Bachmanns Inspection Saloon has virtually nothing in common with the LMS passenger stock, as even the solebars are differently spaced. I just hope people buy plenty of the 'Portholes' to allow Bachmann to invest in more coaches.

Absolutely agree with you, Bachmann's range is far better, Hornby need to do 60' chassis coaches at least to go with what they already have.

 

 

And I've bought several of the portholes just because they look so good. If they ever come out in maroon, I'll buy several more.

[Ian Hargrave]

I , also cannot understand why the Hornby Hawksworth coaches did not sell , I have six and to me they are superb.

One boob Hornby did make , was the introduction of the all 1st into the range at a later date. It's always the all 1st

that stays on the shelves, but Hornby always insist we should have one.[/quote

 

They may indeed be superb....but I terms of prototypical authenticity,they were rare . The WR remained a Collett province until the 1960's.

[darren01]

There is a lack of Restaurant coaches for the Bullied and the Maunsell coaches, did talk to Mr Kohler a while ago and asked would Hornby ever do the Maunsell ones and was told no.

Hornby seem to think they would not sell and would not be worth doing, I know i would get some of them for my coach sets.

Maybe one day they may get round to doing them.

[trevor7598]

I have read the above threads on LMS coaches with interest.

My  question to the manufacturers is, where is the Stanier or post war open third ? I am sure Coachman can tell us 

how many were built, surely the most numerous type of LMS coach.

Bachmann fixated on the word 'Porthole', the whole range had to have this feature , so we have a Brake 1st of 

which there were only fifteen built , but no open third because there were no 'Porthole' examples.

Perhaps they should have themed their LMS range as Post War stock, included an open third, and reaped 

in the profits! .

Come on 'Red Box ' or ' Blue Box ' there are surely volume sales awaiting on this subject.

[nigel newling]

To get back to the OP, I do not think we of the pre '47 persuasion are well served by the trade and I am not convinced that Period 3 does not sell. While the maroon Hawksworth may be hanging around, the GW liveried versions disappeared almost immediately and that livery was only valid for a small number of 3rds built in '46 and '47. I long for some Colletts to pad out my Mainline C77s and E159s. A D127 and an E158 would be ideal. They were built in large numbers and had a 25-30 year life, running through into the full BR maroon era.

I also fully agree with the call for pre nationalisation catering stock. These also had long lives. With modellers being constrained by space, most of us run shortened rakes - but a restuarant car is a must. :-)

[coachmann]

I wonder if folk have thought this through. It is generally acknowledged that all-first coaches tend to be left on dealer shelves because people only buy one. This applies equally to catering vehicles such as Dining Cars............... Witness the number of heavily discounted Gresley Buffet Cars for sale up to a few years ago. It appears one-off vehicles are hardly viable for RTR mass production. On paper, the Inspection Saloon might be expected to be included, but buyers seem to be purchasing more than one! Part of my layout has a busy mainline and yet one ex. LMS Diner and one ex LNER diner suffice for traffic needs even though I could build as many as I like. This is possibly one area where one is going to have to polish up their soldering.

[Robin Brasher]

Applying the same logic there is only one brake van for each freight train. Perhaps that is why the R6693 GWR Toad Brake Van is the only pre-nationalisation brake van in the Hornby range.

[asmay2002]

Applying the same logic there is only one brake van for each freight train. Perhaps that is why the R6693 GWR Toad Brake Van is the only pre-nationalisation brake van in the Hornby range.

Every freight rain needs a brake van.  Many passenger trains did not have buffet/restaurant cars.

[Coach bogie]

Challenge for any manufacturer is to get the balance of brakes, thirds, compos etc that ensure all the production run is sold. Airfix had this issue by producing the same number of mk II brakes as the firsts and then wondered why there were brakes left on the shelves resulting in their reluctance to produce the seconds. Certainly the 1930's Southern and LNER stock left on the shelves would not produce a complete train. Mention has been made of the Hawksworths but from my observations it is the BR liveries that remain on the shelves with only full brake, 1st and bk compos to be had in chocolate and cream.

 

Having shared a beer or two on this topic, one conclusion we came to was that if manufacturers were so concerned about unsold individual coaches then maybe selling them as sets would produce more acceptable revenue. Certainly the Southern coaches, which usually ran a numbered sets could have been sold in this way. I have rarely seen coaches to be purchased for use as a single vehicle (auto coaches excepted). There are several threads regarding train formations and the manufacturers could solve this with sets, based on accurate research, with add on packs etc as Hornby did with some of the Pullmans. Economies of scale on packaging, ordering, deliveries etc.

 

Just a thought.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Unknown Warrior]

While the Southern may have run numbered sets, this was not so true of the other three railway/ regions. In BR days reference to photos will show that many trains were a glorious mixture. It is amazing how widely traveled Gresley stock was! In the mid to late fifty's the change from blood and custard to maroon provides even more variety. There is therefore plenty of scope for putting rakes comprising of a variety of pre-nationalisation coaches together, in a mixture of liveries with not a Mk 1 in sight!

 

I have actually got quite a good stock on pre-nationalisation liveried stock because I bought them when they came out. Try finding BR maroon liveried Hornby Stanier Stock at the moment!

 

While there may not be a massive demand for catering stock, I would have thought that the demand for sleeping coaches was even smaller.

 

Pre-grouping stock is the next big market. It will be interesting to see how the Bachmann Birdcage Coaches and the Kernow Gate Stock sell. Hopefully we will see both in 2016 if not before. Quite a lot of pre-grouping stock lasted well in to BR days so there is plenty of scope for liveries, as the variations promised by both Bachmann and Kernow show.

 

The problem is that putting a rake together is not cheap. A rake of three Hornby LMS non gangway stock is going to be over £100. While a two coaches rake of Gate Stock is £99.

[Market65]

Hi. I see that the SR bogie van B has gone from this year's catalogue as well - did they not sell well enough? I think that Hornby are possibly going through a slimming down this year. Certainly the pre-nationalisation carriage stock had become, as stated, very expensive.

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[brushman47544]

Hi. I see that the SR bogie van B has gone from this year's catalogue as well - did they not sell well enough? I think that Hornby are possibly going through a slimming down this year. Certainly the pre-nationalisation carriage stock had become, as stated, very expensive.

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

 

I really don't think you can make that assumption just because a particular model does not appear in the latest catalogue. All manufacturers "rest" models from time to time. presumably Hornby has decided that producing a new batch of Van Bs is lower priority than other models, which may themselves have been rested; not everything can be produced every year. For example the "hi-fi" HAAs are back this year after a few years' absence.

[trevor7598]

I wonder if folk have thought this through. It is generally acknowledged that all-first coaches tend to be left on dealer shelves because people only buy one. This applies equally to catering vehicles such as Dining Cars............... Witness the number of heavily discounted Gresley Buffet Cars for sale up to a few years ago. It appears one-off vehicles are hardly viable for RTR mass production. On paper, the Inspection Saloon might be expected to be included, but buyers seem to be purchasing more than one! Part of my layout has a busy mainline and yet one ex. LMS Diner and one ex LNER diner suffice for traffic needs even though I could build as many as I like. This is possibly one area where one is going to have to polish up their soldering.

How will we ever get the balance right?. Take the Southern , for example ,lots of 3 coach sets which were sometimes formed up into

12 car trains,thats 8 brakes and 4 composites , as an extreme example.

On other railways/regions which did not use fixed sets a 12 coach train may only have 2 brakes in its formation.

On this basis how many brakes should the model manufacturers make ?

As for one off types, did the Devon Belle observation car sell ?, that was very brave of Hornby,only two of them for a train that 

was short lived. I did buy one.

The Hornby range of Maunsell coaches is so extensive that it seems a little bare without a dining car!!. As the catering on 

the Southern was often operated by Pullman, a Pullman kitchen car can offset the lack of a dining car, but i would still like one!.

[Unknown Warrior]

A quick trawl of ebay for the most recent version of the Hornby LMS Brake Van in BR grey drew a complete blank (from a listing of 450 assorted brake vans!). Only available bundled with other wagons (about 3). Plenty of GWR "Toads" and Hornby are reintroducing these in the new catalogue! Perhaps Hornby would like to consider a new run of the LMS Brake Van for 2016, or even better new tooling!

 

In spite of the announcement of the Hornby suburbans and the horse box, it is definitely time for supporters of the LMS to get on the march again!

[coachmann]

I think a start in getting the right balance could be made by avoiding first class coaches. Most model railways have to use shorter than prototype trains and it is not surprising all-firsts are barely purchased. Composites are far better. If Bachmann is pleased with the return on its LMS 'Porthole' coaches, they might be the people to be persuaded to produce a dining car. They would have to design a new window with pre-war style sliding vents as well as a new chassis and 6-wheel bogies, so it is not a minor thing to produce. The company might feel a 68' coach would need to be too severely compromised in order to go around train set curves.