RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2015 If UK outline range was made at 1:120 straight from the outset you alienate the most receptive section of your potential market – those who already model British outline in 3mm. As has also been mentioned it's not that different from N at 1:148. You might not think it that different but actually it is quite surprising the difference that it makes when you consider volume/weight (almost double). And there is the joy of having a proper scale track gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapford34102 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 For a potential development that many seem to believe is already dead in the water and largely irrelevant it's generating a deal of interest. I tend though to agree with Anglian (#164) where he comments to the effect that people often don't know what they want until it's put in front of them. Why would Hornby even consider TT in some form or another ? Total speculation but perhaps they took a long hard look at what's happening in "OO". New entrants coming into the market making it more competitive, crowded and fragmented and given the approach of some companies increasingly difficult to predict so make planning long term a lottery. TT could have been calmer waters business wise. I strongly suspect they've decided to take carefully considered steps into "N" with the Arnold "Belle" the first one. Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglian Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I've seen similar daring ventures as R-T-R 3mm happen in one of my other hobbies. About 15 years ago there was a oft repeated pie-in-the-sky dream, not dissimilar to this TT debate – nobody ever thought such a range would ever be made because the tooling costs were too high. And then something happened – one company, a market leader, stepped in and released the product, just like that. Bam! That one boxed set began a steady trickle with others following suit and new companies starting up to offer similar models. In five years they essentially redefined the hobby having seen the opportunity. The reality is that we just don't know what effect on the market and hobby R-T-R 3mm could have. We can speculate positively, negatively or agnostically but we don't know for sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Actually, there are already a few 3mm products that are near ready-to-run, some diesel engines on the 3SMR website. If they are to be believed you plop the body onto the chassis and paint it. There are classes 24, 33, 40, 42 and 52. You might be able to get them with a 14.2mm chassis. Not particularly cheap - but there again, neither would anything RTR be from Hornby. See http://www.3smr.co.uk/locosdiesel.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2015 Further up the thread, someone mentioned the Hobbytrain 1:120 Class 66. Just been having a look. Very good and not unreasonably expensive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted February 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2015 The 3smr site has a pretty amazing range, especially near-rtr diesel hydraulics. Transformed from how the scale used to be. You can do so much. Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2015 Further up the thread, someone mentioned the Hobbytrain 1:120 Class 66. Just been having a look. Very good and not unreasonably expensive. Class 66 in DB Schenker livery, interesting, and very unusual (if not unique) in that models are listed for N, TT, and OO as follows, (It's probably done by somebody in HO too, but I was more interested in a direct comparison with the established UK scales). N (Graham Farish) £93.46 in stock at Hattons. Dapol also did it but theirs is no longer in stock, current versions in other liveries are listed at £99. TT (Hobbytrain) £180 to pre-order from Gaugemaster, 1:120 scale on 12mm gauge. However, based on the prices asked for continental-liveried versions already released, I think web retailers might offer it at around the £150 mark when it does emerge. OO (Bachmann) £97.71 in stock at Hattons. All appear to be to "DCC Ready" specification. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2015 The 3SMR site is for 1:100 UK locos etc. But it does have a useful little table with chassis dimensions (pointed out to me by Rekoboy). The Piko "Hercules" looks a possibility with bogies that work out at about 8'8" to scale at 34' centres. The question then is whether the chassis block would need modifying for the smaller UK loading gauge. Rekoboy has also flagged up to me a comprehensive table of chassis dimensions published by the German TT Association. Some of the Tillig chassis look very likely candidates. Can anyone here flag up an internet resource with basic dimensional drawings of the more common UK diesel locos? But this is taking us away from the OP. Perhaps I should start a new thread about modelling UK prototype in 1:120 scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
siltec Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 Do not know of any online source but the Colin Marsden books for diesel and electric locos cover most other than the most recent, unless of course there is a new edition. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
siltec Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 Using a freelance tram this is a comparison of scales fromm 00 to T (1/76 to 1/480) They are all scaled for track representing standard gauge. Of course 00 would then be proto4. The 00 image is the original and was on 16.5mm gauge track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Using a freelance tram this is a comparison of scales fromm 00 to T (1/76 to 1/480) They are all scaled for track representing standard gauge. Of course 00 would then be proto4. The 00 image is the original and was on 16.5mm gauge track. Thanks for that Siltec it's is very interesting. For me comparing 1:87 and 1:120 and it does make the point that though TT appears to not that much smaller in scale than H0 it is quite significant and very often the difference in what you can comfortably build in a typical room. Somehow H0 always seems to be just that bit too large for the space while TT would fit easily. What happens if you insert 2mm/ft scale and 3mm/ft scale into the chart. does TT at 1:120 actually wind up being too close to N for any appreciable benefit? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
siltec Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Thanks for that Siltec it's is very interesting. For me comparing 1:87 and 1:120 and it does make the point that though TT appears to not that much smaller in scale than H0 it is quite significant and very often the difference in what you can comfortably build in a typical room. Somehow H0 always seems to be just that bit too large for the space while TT would fit easily. What happens if you insert 2mm/ft scale and 3mm/ft scale into the chart. does TT at 1:120 actually wind up being too close to N for any appreciable benefit? UK TT and N. I have also tried S and T for 3'6" gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 What happens if you insert 2mm/ft scale and 3mm/ft scale into the chart. does TT at 1:120 actually wind up being too close to N for any appreciable benefit? Even 1:120 TT would be significantly bigger than British N at 1:148, taking the overall volume and weight into account. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Hughes Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 If UK outline range was made at 1:120 straight from the outset you alienate the most receptive section of your potential market – those who already model British outline in 3mm. As has also been mentioned it's not that different from N at 1:148. The other side of that coin is that you make your product attractive to the many 1:120 TT modellers on the continent who might fancy something different. There is quite a lot of interest in modular layouts in Central and Eastern Europe. I could quite imagine a British module might be something many would consider if the stock was available. North American TT was a lot more dead than the UK equivalent but there is now a Canadian company producing some very nice rtr stuff that seems to be finding a market. From TT forums I suspect that many of their products are being bought by existing Continental TT modellers. A British manufacturer introducing 1:120 rtr onto the UK market would create an odd situation with the existing 3mm scale, though. As a scratch-building scale I don't think you can beat 1:100 (and I have tried most of them) The size is manageable being big enough to incorporate details but small enough to make it economic in the use of materials and not requiring hours spent sawing sheets of metal to cut parts. There is also the very real advantage of a "scale inch" in both metric (0.25mm) and imperial (.010") units that makes size conversions a lot easier. 1:120 would not be as good in the latter respect while modelling in 3mm would mean you couldn't use the rtr stuff. It would be a difficult choice for the prospective British TT modeller. I think the only real option for models aimed at the UK market would be 1:100 but then does that mean the market is too small to sustain the range? I don't think I would like to be risking my investment on it if I was in charge at Hornby. Maybe 1:120 British prototypes for the Continental Market would be more realistic commercially. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I was in my local model shop today and they had a series of die-cast models called Corgi Rail Legends - including a Britannia and some other well-known British outline locos - and the packaging said 1:120 scale. I must say they looked tiny - certainly they were much smaller than Tri-ang TT. I almost mistook them for N gauge. So there's something in the claim made by some that 1:120 is too close to British N, contrary to what I first thought. But they just might have been under scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10, 2015 I was in my local model shop today and they had a series of die-cast models called Corgi Rail Legends - including a Britannia and some other well-known British outline locos - and the packaging said 1:120 scale. I must say they looked tiny - certainly they were much smaller than Tri-ang TT. I almost mistook them for N gauge. So there's something in the claim made by some that 1:120 is too close to British N, contrary to what I first thought. But they just might have been under scale. I'm not familiar with those. Is the bodywork good enough (assuming to scale) to justify motorising? Edit: Just googled them. £13 at Argos and they look very good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Similar price on Hornby website - wait, did I say Hornby.......! Anyone got one? Can they be stripped down? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 ... So there's something in the claim made by some that 1:120 is too close to British N, contrary to what I first thought... Yes and also no. I would suggest that IF - yes that's an enormous if - Triang all those years ago had chosen true scale TT at 1:120, and had enough commercial success to have stuck with it, then a likely outcome in the present would have been that UK N gauge probably wouldn't have happened. Fitting in the mechanisms in N isn't such a problem now as it once was, but 1:120 offers that useful extra little extra in internal volume over N which makes all the difference with smaller UK prototypes. As a recent example the Peco 2251 class which had to have the 4,000 gallon tender in UK N, could have had one of the more typical smaller tenders in TT 1:120... Water under the bridge, alea jacta est, etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Similar price on Hornby website - wait, did I say Hornby.......! Anyone got one? Can they be stripped down? Even if they can, there's the small question of rolling stock. Maybe there's a cottage industry waiting there for 3D printing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I would suggest that IF - yes that's an enormous if - Triang all those years ago had chosen true scale TT at 1:120, and had enough commercial success to have stuck with it, then a likely outcome in the present would have been that UK N gauge probably wouldn't have happened. I agree. But having seen those British outline Corgi models, I must say I prefer the 1:100 scale stuff I've kept hold of. In fact, the Corgi models do look much smaller than some continental TT I had a few years ago, even allowing for the smaller loading gauge, which is why I'm wondering if they are under scale. Not that I'm interested enough to actually buy one and find out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 It'll never happen, Hornby have enough trouble getting any product out in the most popular scale , let alone a minority interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 It won't happen because Hornby have publicly said that they looked into it and decided against it - it ended there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2015 Even if they can, there's the small question of rolling stock. Maybe there's a cottage industry waiting there for 3D printing. Rolling stock is a lot easier than locos. For instance, BR Mk1 carriages all have very similar chassis components and the sides can be etched brass, scaled down from existing 4mm artwork. Or the sides could be clear plastic with overlays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2015 It'll never happen, Hornby have enough trouble getting any product out in the most popular scale , let alone a minority interest. I'm not that interested in an LNER Pacific but I might invest in a 7P to check out the measurements. The only disappointment with the Brit is some very overdone rivets on the tender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted February 11, 2015 Administrators Share Posted February 11, 2015 Rolling stock is a lot easier than locos. For instance, BR Mk1 carriages all have very similar chassis components and the sides can be etched brass, scaled down from existing 4mm artwork. Or the sides could be clear plastic with overlays. "Near enough" is no longer considered good enough by a very vocal body of modellers. A new range would have to be perfect or RMweb would melt down with the frothing. And if you want to build kits, they exist already for 1:100 - this is about a range for people who don't want to make anything themselves no matter how easy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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