Unusual PW configurations thread both real and model.

[Grovenor]

I think the two reds mean that GPS is a combined GPS (capable of two white lights "proceed") & "Limit of Shunt" indicator but then I'm a PW engineer !!

The signals are identical in meaning, old GPS showed white+red for the stop aspect, new (mainly LED) versions show two reds. So its just that one has been recently renewed.

Regards

[royaloak]

I think the two reds mean that GPS is a combined GPS (capable of two white lights "proceed") & "Limit of Shunt" indicator but then I'm a PW engineer !!

Nope, they both mean the same, its just that the nearest one has been changed for a newer LED type with 2 reds and the further one is the old filament lamp version with only one red, quite unusual to see the old type still in use in yards now.

 

One of the reasons for the change was if the red filament failed and the signal showed just the one white light what should the driver treat it as because it is showing an aspect although an incorrect on?

Edited October 31, 2017 by royaloak

[Grovenor]

One of the reasons for the change was if the red filament failed and the signal showed just the one white light what should the driver treat it as because it is showing an aspect although an incorrect on?

The driver's treatment of an incomplete/incorrect aspect is clear in the rules so not really an issue. But the use of two reds is an obvious improvement that could have been done before LEDs by making a 4 lens unit but LEDs made it possible to have both red and white available in the same lens.

Regards

[Southernman46]

Nope, they both mean the same, its just that the nearest one has been changed for a newer LED type with 2 reds and the further one is the old filament lamp version with only one red, quite unusual to see the old type still in use in yards now.

 

One of the reasons for the change was if the red filament failed and the signal showed just the one white light what should the driver treat it as because it is showing an aspect although an incorrect on?

treat any blank signal as a RED ??

 

I do remember being told a (possibly apocryphal) story once in BR days about an entire signal that went AWOL during a track renewal (ISTR on the LT&S) and went unnoticed until the following day whereupon it was discovered lying on its side in the cess still connected to the signalling system and happily performing its designated function ................... 

[russ p]

Seeing different signals on different roads is commonplace Peterborough is terrible for it flat LED signal on one covered LED on another then a conventional proper signal in my eyes on the next.

On the four track section up to Stoke its pot luck what type of signal you come up against although they are the same in pairs. This does however make it difficult to judge distance in dark or poor viability as all are different.

It used to be that whatever the manufacturer of a signal was the end result ie the light was the same.

These days it seems anyone can draw up an idea for a signal and network rail will buy it!

[johnb]

Seeing different signals on different roads is commonplace Peterborough is terrible for it flat LED signal on one covered LED on another then a conventional proper signal in my eyes on the next.

On the four track section up to Stoke its pot luck what type of signal you come up against although they are the same in pairs. This does however make it difficult to judge distance in dark or poor viability as all are different.

It used to be that whatever the manufacturer of a signal was the end result ie the light was the same.

These days it seems anyone can draw up an idea for a signal and network rail will buy it!

Obviously I'm a bit naive on this. I would have thought that there would have been a effort to avoid a mish-mash of types in any particular section of line or station area. As Russ says it must make things tricky for drivers.

 

John

[royaloak]

treat any blank signal as a RED ??

 

I do remember being told a (possibly apocryphal) story once in BR days about an entire signal that went AWOL during a track renewal (ISTR on the LT&S) and went unnoticed until the following day whereupon it was discovered lying on its side in the cess still connected to the signalling system and happily performing its designated function ................... 

But it isnt blank it is showing a white aspect.

 

There was a similar tale about a signal that had slid down an embankment into somebodies back garden but because it had dragged the wires with it it was still working correctly, it was an auto signal in a sequence of lots of auto signals and no driver noticed,it was only when the chap gave BR a ring and informed them about it that things got sorted.

I am sure there are many versions of the same story, the question is, are any of them true!

[royaloak]

Obviously I'm a bit naive on this. I would have thought that there would have been a effort to avoid a mish-mash of types in any particular section of line or station area. As Russ says it must make things tricky for drivers.

 

John

The only answer you get is 'your route knowledge should tell you what signals to expect', its the standard answer.

 

One of the issues I have got is 3 aspect (single aperture) LED signals that look as if they have 4 aspects because they have a second aperture above the first but it isnt actually in use, there are loads of them between Paddington and Wootton Bassett jn, not nice running on greens at 125mph and then spotting a single yellow in front of you.

[royaloak]

Seeing different signals on different roads is commonplace Peterborough is terrible for it flat LED signal on one covered LED on another then a conventional proper signal in my eyes on the next.

On the four track section up to Stoke its pot luck what type of signal you come up against although they are the same in pairs. This does however make it difficult to judge distance in dark or poor viability as all are different.

It used to be that whatever the manufacturer of a signal was the end result ie the light was the same.

These days it seems anyone can draw up an idea for a signal and network rail will buy it!

Dont get me started on the 2 aperture 4 aspect LEDs where the apertures are so close together they look like a single yellow from a distance because the 2 yellows blend in to one, I have complained about it but just get the normal 'they comply with the specification' answer, well yeah they probably do but that doesnt mean the specification is any good!

[Grovenor]

not nice running on greens at 125mph and then spotting a single yellow in front of you.

If its 3 aspect signalling then there will be adequate braking distance for line speed from the yellow.

Regards

[Grovenor]

Dont get me started on the 2 aperture 4 aspect LEDs where the apertures are so close together they look like a single yellow from a distance because the 2 yellows blend in to one

The old ones would do the same, just at a longer distance. How far from the signal do you need to get a clear aspect? braking does not need to start until passing the signal.

Regards

[The Stationmaster]

It's interesting Mike that the two ground signals SB 6413/6411, despite being almost side by side, that one has red/white lights and the other red/red. I would have thought that some consistancy would have been applied with the yard or at least adjacent signals would be the same type. I realise that drivers would of course know what the meaning was, but ....

John

 

John, that was part of my reason for taking a  pic which included both of them.  Even as late as 2004 when those pics were taken campaign updating of GPLs to included a pivot light at red when at danger had still not finished - so there were two signals adjacent to each other and one had been updated to the new standard while the other had not.

[The Stationmaster]

The only answer you get is 'your route knowledge should tell you what signals to expect', its the standard answer.

 

One of the issues I have got is 3 aspect (single aperture) LED signals that look as if they have 4 aspects because they have a second aperture above the first but it isnt actually in use, there are loads of them between Paddington and Wootton Bassett jn, not nice running on greens at 125mph and then spotting a single yellow in front of you.

 

But there is only one in that whole distance which is (very slightly - by yards in single figures) under the correct braking distance and that was probably corrected when various signals were renewed due to electrification and in any case the siting of the 3 aspect signals gives correct braking from line speed from the single yellow to the red aspect.

 

Overall it's considerable sight better than it used to be when you consider the uneven signal spacing which used t exist on the Up Main (in particular) approaching Slough.  

[Trog]

If its 3 aspect signalling then there will be adequate braking distance for line speed from the yellow.

Regards

 

I think what the original poster was saying was that because they look like four aspect signals, when you see the single yellow the first thought that goes through your mind is something like....

 

S**T I have missed the double yellow. Which at the very least can not be good for the calm concentration we would all like in the driver of our train.

[Trog]

 

I do remember being told a (possibly apocryphal) story once in BR days about an entire signal that went AWOL during a track renewal (ISTR on the LT&S) and went unnoticed until the following day whereupon it was discovered lying on its side in the cess still connected to the signalling system and happily performing its designated function ................... 

 

 

I was on a job once where a large excavator backed into a signal with its counter weight while working. The signal was pushed over enough that the beam was hitting the ground about 40 or 50 yards from the signal. The machine had pushed the signal over by hitting the replacement key switch box, which turned the signal red without changing how it showed in the box. So the signalman did not notice that anything was wrong. I finally noticed the problem as I was tidying up at the end of the possession, unfortunately at just about the same time as the driver of the first train through. Which was a shame as the S&T insisted on us paying for a whole new signal, whereas if we had noticed earlier we could have straightened it with a bucket and probably got away with just apologising to the fault team for breaking the replacement switch.

 

There was an enquiry in the office afterwards and our boss was just getting ready to find out who to roast. When he slapped his forehead and said "I remember seeing the pool of red light on the ground in front of the signal and thinking it was odd." but he did not twig that something was wrong. To give him his due he did take that as evidence that us minions where thus not at fault for not noticing it.

 

On another night when S&T cover was scarce we dug up a dummy signal and left it on the sleeper ends shining up into the sky, while we laid a drain down the six foot replanting it once the gravel was in.

[iands]

But it isnt blank it is showing a white aspect.

 

There was a similar tale about a signal that had slid down an embankment into somebodies back garden but because it had dragged the wires with it it was still working correctly, it was an auto signal in a sequence of lots of auto signals and no driver noticed,it was only when the chap gave BR a ring and informed them about it that things got sorted.

I am sure there are many versions of the same story, the question is, are any of them true!

An 'actual' rather than a 'tale', the signal that fell over at Newbury a couple of years ago - red aspect still lit!

 

Regards, Ian.

 

[The Stationmaster]

An 'actual' rather than a 'tale', the signal that fell over at Newbury a couple of years ago - red aspect still lit!

 

Regards, Ian.

 

Newbury 17-11-2014.jpg

 

Strange thing about that signal is that numerous ones which predated it are still standing quite happily along the GWML with merely updated signal heads and various other fittings changed.  I was looking out of the train window the other day at some which were commissioned 56 years ago.  Obviously Reading's original method of mounting colour light signal posts would appear to have distinct advantages when it comes to longevity

[Ian Smeeton]

Something different.

 

https://goo.gl/U7q31Y

 

and

 

https://goo.gl/uF3zpX

 

114/29 Catch points between Castlehill & Morningside

 

Regards

 

Ian

[royaloak]

I think what the original poster was saying was that because they look like four aspect signals, when you see the single yellow the first thought that goes through your mind is something like....

 

S**T I have missed the double yellow. Which at the very least can not be good for the calm concentration we would all like in the driver of our train.

Yep, that about covers it.

As for Stationmaster mentioning service braking distance from the single yellow, he is correct, but why is there a 120mph limit from Cholsey on the up main?

The answer is because they got their sums wrong and the signals were too close together for 125mph operation, guess how a driver found that out?

 

Of course none of this allows for the wheels picking up due to poor railhead conditions, and running along at 120 or 125 knowing you have the bear minimum braking distance does nothing for your nerves when you see a yellow in front, okay we will be braking as soon as we sight the yellow which gives us more of a margin but its still a bit disconcerting.

 

Yes I appreciate our route knowledge should cover it but its quite easy to forget that T832 and T824 are 3 aspect when they are actually 4 aspect heads with the top yellow disconnected, and then of course we have the 4 aspect heads which are currently 3 aspect signals but will apparently become 4 aspect signals at Christmas, all good fun.            

[royaloak]

An 'actual' rather than a 'tale', the signal that fell over at Newbury a couple of years ago - red aspect still lit!

 

Regards, Ian.

 

Newbury 17-11-2014.jpg

That is one way to make sure the train stops!

 

I used to work at the same depot as the driver that had the pleasure of being the first on the scene, the signal post had rotted through well below ballast height so wouldnt have been visible unless the ballast was dug away.

 

He was also the train driver who hit the debris from the bridge demolished by the Eddie Stobart lorry where the train actually took off and landed back on the rails, that one could have been a lot worse.

Edited November 4, 2017 by royaloak

[Coryton]

Yep, that about covers it.

As for Stationmaster mentioning service braking distance from the single yellow, he is correct, but why is there a 120mph limit from Cholsey on the up main?

The answer is because they got their sums wrong and the signals were too close together for 125mph operation, guess how a driver found that out?

 

Of course none of this allows for the wheels picking up due to poor railhead conditions, and running along at 120 or 125 knowing you have the bear minimum braking distance does nothing for your nerves when you see a yellow in front, okay we will be braking as soon as we sight the yellow which gives us more of a margin but its still a bit disconcerting.

 

Yes I appreciate our route knowledge should cover it but its quite easy to forget that T832 and T824 are 3 aspect when they are actually 4 aspect heads with the top yellow disconnected, and then of course we have the 4 aspect heads which are currently 3 aspect signals but will apparently become 4 aspect signals at Christmas, all good fun.            

 

Roll on ERTMS?

[iands]

With regard to the Newbury signal, I'm still not sure what is the scariest - the fact that not that long before the signal fell over, someone climbed the signal and worked on it during the changing of the signal head, or the fact that said person who climbed the signal (or at least the person carrying out the original survey) didn't examine the base of the signal first to ensure it was safe to climb!  

 

Regards, Ian

[timbowilts]

Re royaloak’s post, can we know what said drivers roster is please? They say bad things come in threes and he’s apparently had two.......

 

Tim T

 

(7 weeks to retirement after 43+ years in the S&T industry)

[royaloak]

Re royaloak’s post, can we know what said drivers roster is please? They say bad things come in threes and he’s apparently had two.......

 

Tim T

 

(7 weeks to retirement after 43+ years in the S&T industry)

You are quite safe, he had another (very small) thing occur a couple of months before meeting the horizontal signal so he has had his 3 for now.

 

In case I forget, I would like to wish a well earned, very long retirement to you good sir.

 

If you get bored during your retirement (very unlikely), I would really appreciate if you could start a thread about some of the things you have been involved in during your 43 years on the railway, the serious, the funny, the odd and the downright weird, I,like quite a few others, love the stories.

Edited November 4, 2017 by royaloak

[royaloak]

With regard to the Newbury signal, I'm still not sure what is the scariest - the fact that not that long before the signal fell over, someone climbed the signal and worked on it during the changing of the signal head, or the fact that said person who climbed the signal (or at least the person carrying out the original survey) didn't examine the base of the signal first to ensure it was safe to climb!  

 

Regards, Ian

The bottom of the post that was visible looked fine, the rust was well hidden deep in the ballast so would have been invisible without digging all the ballast away first.