cessfordalan Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Hello everybody I have just joined the twenty first century as B.T. has connected to a broadband connection so i hope to partake in some of the sections of this forum and here is a problem i am suffering from. Imagine a standard Peco electrofrog point which has been working for some considerable time and is now causing problems The loco is traveling from the toe of the point in a straight line without any problem in either direction, change the direction of travel and the loco stalls, using a small screwdriver or something push the tie bar on the point and loco moves on ok.Sometimes it happens the other way or even both ways. Needless to say it is the most difficult point on the layout to get at so has anyone got any suggestions to recertify this.# A new point is not really an option as I live in an extremely remote area some six hours from any model shop and the postage is horrendous.Look in the Modeller for the exclusions on postage post codes I hope I have put this thread in the correct section, if not could the moderator push it in the right direction Regards Cessfordalan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The connection between point blade and stock rail is poor, probably due to dust and dirt. You can try cleaning the contact areas. The long term solution is to modify the points to use an external switch so that it no longer relies on the blade contact. search on here for "DCC friendly points" it has been covered many times and the modifications are equllly valid for DCC or DC operation. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted February 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2015 As mentioned, this has been covered many times before. For how to modify Peco Electrofrog to eliminate the problem you have see here - http://www.buffersmodelrailways.com/content/doc/lib/12654/electrofrog-points.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Welcome to RMWeb As said before this has been covered many times before on RMWeb - but you are new here so are excused for not knowing that. The search facility is pretty poor here and a google search limited to tis site will bring up many interesting topics to read without having to bounce around other sites. Dirty contact on the sides of the rails is probably the fault but you will find quite a few other potential possibilities exist. You quite clearly state that this point is in a difficult position (I'll skip the lecture on positioning points - one of the troublesome parts about model railways - in an accessible position ) so replacement is out of the question - though it may eventually come to that. The Peco points have an internal spring that helps to keep the switch blade against the stock rails - a design fault of the points mean that this spring (in reality a thin piece of wire) is not as durable as it should be and can lose its springyness. They can be replaced but this also requires access and can be a real pain to do - as springs have a tendency to spring and loose themselves. You do not mention if this point has a point motor attached. This is potentially a solution to your problem. Using the right point motor (not PEco or Seep) will help force the switch rail over - assuming of course it is assuming that cleaning the sides of the rails doesn't solve the problem. There are a whole list of other possibilities as to the cause of the fault. From the alignment/distortion of the point through to a malfunctioning or poorly aligned point motor or (my favourite) the use of Peco pins through the sleepers. Don't discount changing the point - rewiring and so called 'DCC'ing the Peco point really is the best solution. Anyone on RMWeb for any length of time will know this and will do this automatically for any new layout - the extra work is simple, minimal and makes the point just about bullet-proof electrically. But your new here so we have to seek out the cause of the problem before offering solutions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 There is a small contact on the point blade that makes contact under the adjacent rail, these get dirty and sometimes need cleaning with a needle file and or tweaking with a pair of long nosed pliers, if it is not clean and making contact you will get the symptoms you describe. Many of my 20 to 25 year old peco points have had this problem but a couple of minutes work fixes it. Peco did make some points without these contacts, they are entirely useless, see the posts about polarity changing micro switches if you have any. Point motors not throwing can cause problems but this is something which usually shows up immediately the motor is installed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Point motors not throwing can cause problems but this is something which usually shows up immediately the motor is installed.My suggestion had nothing to do with point motors not throwing. But the use of a point motor to solve the problem of the switch rail not contacting the stock rail. I can also say that none of my Peco points have the feature of a small contact on the switch - Perhaps we should clairify that this feature has been common with 'N' gauge points but not on 'OO' gauge points - at least none I have (and we do not know which gauge points the OP is referring to). With all my OO gauge points Peco rely on the spring and the very small area of rail contact to transfer current (this is why the so called 'DCCing' of points is so important as it makes the switch the same polarity as its adjacent stock rail. But we are unable to do that in this case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Peco code 100 have a small tang underneath the 'moving' or Stich which makes co take with the running rail. Peco code 75 relies on face to face contact........ They do require cleaning on a fairly regular basis...... A cotton bud, barely wet with liquid poly or other suitable solvent will do the job. And no, it won't effect the plastic sleepers, been doing and using it for years with no ill effect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted February 16, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2015 From the description, it looks as if the point is not contacting the stock rail when thrown. When the loco approaches from one way it pushes the point over and makes contact. From the frog end, it hits the dead rail first. Check that the bit that holds the spring in place is up where it needs to be and that there is a spring in it. They can go through wear and tear. Also clean the rails that contact -- I use my normal rail cleaning liquid and a cotton swab or brush. I just checked; Peco code 100 have little contact tabs while code 70 don't. I have added micro switches to one collection of Peco points -- cut a hole in the baseboard beside the throw bar and use it to power the frog and connected point rails. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I think the problem has been identified. Now to choose a solution. That necessitates a couple of questions: How is the point operated? If motorised, what kind of motor? Are there any feed wires to the point. If so how many and to where. (This includes the wires that feed the stock rails) Is the point on its own not part of a crossover, ladder etc Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Have a read here . Very good http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejstubbs Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Using the right point motor (not PEco or Seep) will help force the switch rail over Out of interest, if not those then which point motors would you recommend? assuming that cleaning the sides of the rails doesn't solve the problem. Don't the Seep motors have a built-in microswitch that can be used to avoid precisely this problem? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2015 Don't the Seep motors have a built-in microswitch that can be used to avoid precisely this problem? Seep motors come in a variety of configurations, some have switches, others don't. There are plenty of threads here on RMweb by people whp have difficulty with them. The secret is to ensure that they are correctly centred in all planes. If you don't do this, you'll have nothing but trouble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Out of interest, if not those then which point motors would you recommend? Don't the Seep motors have a built-in microswitch that can be used to avoid precisely this problem? One of the several that hold the switch rail against the stock rail (Tortoise, Cobalt, Hoffman - very much in that order) Solenoid PMs do not force the rails together. The supply of power to the frog is irrelevant in this case (Seep do have a SP change over switch) but that will resolve this lost contact problem. It does provide for powering the frog but that should not be done without modifying the point. The effect can be (depending on which version of Peco point is used) a short across the power !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cessfordalan Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Hello everyone, Many thanks for the very helpful and prompt replies to my query.I have read and filed all the advice you have sent to me and I am sure the answers will sort out the problem Thanks again Alan Cessford Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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