Yet more problems....Tortoise Point Motors :-(

[topsy11]

Hello!

 

Yet more problems it seems and I'm pretty close to jacking the 'hobby' in as I just seem to go from one problem to the next and it causes me much more annoyance than enjoyment!

 

Anyway....

 

I've got some Tortoise point motors...

 

I'm running them from a 12v DC - 2amp transformer. I've got them running fine, thanks to Brian Lambert and they operate fine electrically.

 

I've followed the installation manual and been through it several times. I've installed the first point motor under my point and it just will not fire the switch. It works fine without a point in place and moves the metal rod left to right but when I put a point down it doesn't want to know.

 

I'm getting similar symptoms to when I tried using 12v DC with some Peco PL11 point motors, which was underpowered. However it seems the tortoise ones should work fine on 12V DC?

 

I spent an hour this morning messing, followed by losing my temper and another 30 mins just now and still all.

 

Do I need to do anything else...the PM is perfectly centred under the point, the metal rod is bent as per the instructions but it just seems to go up and down rather than left to right when attempting to move the point blades.

 

Someone please help :-(

[johnb]

If you are using Peco points with the over centre spring still in place then the as-supplied rod is not stiff enough to shift the point tie bar when working against the Peco spring, it just flexes. All you will see is as you have described the rod/wire moving up and down through the hole in the tiebar. If you lookat the motor as it moves you will see the wire just bending to and fro.

 

I had exactly the same problem and found the answer on here.

 

12v DC is fine for operation you certainly don't need anything more

 

There are two solutions:-

One, remove the spring from the Peco points, the Tortoise will continue to hold the tiebar and therefore the blades in place.

Two,  use a stiffer, less flexible wire in place of the as-supplied wire.

 

I have used both options and they work fine. The wire that I used was some steel wire of a slightly larger diameter that I happened to have to hand, so can't give you any info on that.

 

Hope that helps

 

John

[jpendle]

+ 3 Remove the springs from the points.

 

John P

[topsy11]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

 

Well I'm very pleased and relieved to say that removing the springs on the two points has worked a treat - a little annoyed that they couldn't of just added one line to the instructions suggesting the removal of the springs which would of saved me a lot of time and swearing for nothing!!

 

Oh well at least they're working now!!

 

Just one question if anyone reads this far on....

 

Can I connect that piece of wire from the peco electrofrog points to the tortoise PM and if so which connection number does it go to?

 

Thanks again.

 

Mark

[Brian]

Yes you can use the Tortoise to switch an Electrofrog points frog polarity.

Connect the point frog wire to the Tortoise wiring tag number 4.

Now connect two wires that come from the stock rails of the point (outer fixed rails) or if you're DCC from the bus pair to the Tortoise wiring tags 2 and 3.

If you get a short circuit occur on the controller when the point is used swap around the two wires on 2 & 3 tags only.

[RFS]

I've used stronger wire for the Tortoise motors.  Removing the spring should be enough with the original wire, but if you ballast and paint the points they become a bit stiff again.  The wire I use was sourced from Ebay, and you need size 16 (0.036", 20 SWG)

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Piano-Wire-3-foot-long-92cm-for-Crafts-Metal-Working-Industrial-Toys-Games-/261778909107?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item3cf33d27b3

 

You can certainly use one of the Tortoise built-in switches to switch the frog polarity. However you do need to do this in conjunction with the recommended mods to the turnout to completely isolate the frog, as well as bonding the stock rail to the blade rail.  Peco's own instructions for the point detail how to do this.  They can also be accessed here -

 

http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/HO-OO%20Electrofrog%20Turnouts.pdf

 

If you plan on using Electrofrog slips then the spring is underneath, so you need to remove it before laying.

[47137]

I've used stronger wire for the Tortoise motors.  Removing the spring should be enough with the original wire, but if you ballast and paint the points they become a bit stiff again.  The wire I use was sourced from Ebay, and you need size 16 (0.036", 20 SWG)

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Piano-Wire-3-foot-long-92cm-for-Crafts-Metal-Working-Industrial-Toys-Games-/261778909107?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item3cf33d27b3

 

The 20 SWG wire will help a lot, but if you are able to drop one size to 21 SWG (0.032 inch) then this will also fit inside the 1/16 inch brass tube from K&S metals. Which may be useful for a short remote linkage. I write this after much trial and error with unlabelled stock and an impatient model shop assistant.

 

- Richard.

[MiDAS]

I use the wire found in Whisks. Can usually be found in cheap packs of three in pound stores and the like. The wire is 'Chromed' and can also be soldered if using a remote connection. This is for O gauge peco and handbuilt points.

Terry

[Chimer]

Hello!

 

Yet more problems it seems and I'm pretty close to jacking the 'hobby' in as I just seem to go from one problem to the next and it causes me much more annoyance than enjoyment!

 

Anyway....

 

 

 

Glad you've solved this problem as it would be a crime if you did jack in after the learning curve you've negotiated so far ...... having gone through it with you, we want to see how this finally turns out ..... no pressure mind

[johnb]

I think that we all have been through this 'skip-it-all' patch, I know that I did when Whitecross Street was 75% complete. I perservered and the end result (well not quite there yet!) is coming out quite well.

 

So do keep going, I am sure that you will find that the end result will be well worth the effort.

 

Keep us all in the loop of how you are getting on.

 

regards

 

John

[topsy11]

Hello guys.

 

Has anyone wired their tortoise up so it controls to points via 1 motor?

 

I'm wanting to fit a point motor below a set of points as per the attached picture.

 

I see you can buy a link kit which states it'll allow you to do what I want? Has anyone tried this and do I need the mounting kit too? I don't mind if I need to buy it as I just want something that'll work rather than messing around too much!

 

Many thanks

Mark

[47137]

Hello guys. Has anyone wired their tortoise up so it controls to points via 1 motor? I'm wanting to fit a point motor below a set of points as per the attached picture. I see you can buy a link kit which states it'll allow you to do what I want? Has anyone tried this and do I need the mounting kit too? I don't mind if I need to buy it as I just want something that'll work rather than messing around too much! Many thanks Mark

I bought one of the Circuitron Remote Tortoise Mount kits (their p/n 800-6100) plus an additional Cable and Actuator (800-6101) to do just this. It is the most over-engineered contraption I've ever seen and comes with 40 (forty) steps on instructions ... I'll be using two motors to move my crossover. However if you fancy the challenge do PM me and you can have the bits for a nominal sum.

 

Edit: If you are using live frog points, you'll need to use two sets of changeover contacts to feed the frogs. One Tortoise motor has two sets of contacts, so that leaves no spare contacts to interlock signals or give position tellbacks or whatever, if you need these.

 

- Richard.

[johnb]

I didn't even consider the option of using only one Tortoise for crossovers. I've three crossovers on my layout and have used individual motors for each point. In each case the motors are wired in parallel and controlled from a single switch. Each Tortoise switches the relevant frog.

 

John

[topsy11]

Thanks for the replies guys.

 

Richard (47137) how did you go about doing yours in the end please if you didn't bother using the Circuitron kit.

 

I've purchased the Tortoise now so hoping I can still use it, somehow!

 

Cheers

 

Mark

 

Edit...just seen your reply John, thank you. That hadn't crossed my mind and maybe an easier option...so two point motors and just daisy chain them together from the one switch! Sounds like that maybe the way forward!

[47137]

Thanks for the replies guys. Richard (47137) how did you go about doing yours in the end please if you didn't bother using the Circuitron kit. I've purchased the Tortoise now so hoping I can still use it, somehow! Cheers Mark Edit...just seen your reply John, thank you. That hadn't crossed my mind and maybe an easier option...so two point motors and just daisy chain them together from the one switch! Sounds like that maybe the way forward!

Ah yes ... I did say "I will be using two motors"!

 

At the moment my crossover is some cork strips on the baseboard. There will be two Tortoise point motors. If you are modelling a crossover worked from a mechanical lever frame, the points will need to move together. Just daisy chain the wires from terminals 1 and 8 on one motor across to the same pins on the other motor. If the motors are out of sync with each other, swap the connections on the second motor. If, on the other hand, you want to represent a crossover worked by local actuators, do a bit of research because sometimes the points moved one after another. There are details on the rmweb. You might be able to replicate this by arranging the spare contacts on one Tortoise to switch the supply to the other.

 

I've also posted a pic of the remote mount (incomplete) so you can see how big it is.

 

- Richard.

 

[topsy11]

The saga continues...

 

I've installed the point motors and got them working OK. I've got them all wired up nicely and quite pleased with the progress I've made. I've even glued some of the track down now.

 

However I've gone up this morning for a little play about and the points aren't switching across although the motors are moving.

 

It looks like the piano wire is moving up and down as well and going across. It moves the blades left to right but whilst doing so it also moves up and down.

 

I've used a full 3 feet of piano wire trying various things but just can't get it right. If I leave enough wire so it doesn't go through the hole then it sits to high in one position. If I cut it down so trains can pass over it goes through the feed hole on the point and stops working!

 

I can't seem to get the right balance! I never dreamt this would be such a pain in the arse! Is there a company that would fit these for me for a charge? I really can't get the wire right at all and now causing more damage than good :-(

[johnb]

It might be that you have not got the Tortoise quite correctly centered with the tie bar. You need to get the tie bar centered by wedging the blades equally on each side, then centre the Tortoise drive where it exits the motor block, a gentle push will move it, you will hear the gears whining a bit as you do so.

Then fix the Tortoise ensuring that the wire is straight up as it goes through the hole in the tiebar!

 

Then approximately centre the green plastic slider about halfway up it's travel guides. Then try it out. The slider that the wire passes through should then be moved up/down so that the motor just holds the blades comfortably against the stock rail. Then and only then trim the wire so that it just shows through the tiebar at each side, it will be a bit higher in the middle of the travel, but will be at the same level at each end of the travel. I find that I have to have that green slider towards the lower end of its travel.

 

Hope that helps

 

John

[47137]

It might be that you have not got the Tortoise quite correctly centered with the tie bar. You need to get the tie bar centered by wedging the blades equally on each side, then centre the Tortoise drive where it exits the motor block, a gentle push will move it, you will hear the gears whining a bit as you do so.

Then fix the Tortoise ensuring that the wire is straight up as it goes through the hole in the tiebar!

 

Then approximately centre the green plastic slider about halfway up it's travel guides. Then try it out. The slider that the wire passes through should then be moved up/down so that the motor just holds the blades comfortably against the stock rail. Then and only then trim the wire so that it just shows through the tiebar at each side, it will be a bit higher in the middle of the travel, but will be at the same level at each end of the travel. I find that I have to have that green slider towards the lower end of its travel.

 

Hope that helps

 

John

I agree entirely with John's first paragraph.

 

With the motor installed, I suggest you start with the green slider at the top of its travel. This will give the smallest amount of sideways movement on the tiebar, and try out the motor. With the motor parked at either end, pull down the slider until the point blade touches the stock rail, and then a wee bit more to put some tension on the spring wire. If you centred everything up when you fixed the motor, then when you reverse the motor the blades will move nicely across to the other position.

 

The actual position you need for the slider depends on the thickness of the baseboard. For me, with about 19 mm between motor and tiebar, I have the slider near the top of its travel to move a Peco 00 point.

 

- Richard.