Ian Abel Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 So, I had a Bachmann 32-503 73030 5MT BR Black with BR1 tender, brand new, lovely... then, another one appeared for a great price, this one WITH DCC Sound, couldn't pass it up. The question is this, I want to renumber one of them (probably the one without sound though it's not important which!), and would like to switch it to one of the "named" 5MTs. I already have 73081 Excalibur in a custom built DJH model, and am thinking of 73080 Merlin. I can get the full set of numbers/nameplates etc., from Modelmasters where I got the Excalibur set. Would it be too obviously wrong to run a named 73xxx locos with that BR1 tender? From what I can find, none of them ever ran with a BR1. My Excalibur has a BR1B. Can't seem to easily find a Bachmann BR1B/C tender although I've only looked on eBay so far. Anyone need a BR1 as a swap for a BR1B/C?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 73080-9 originally ran with BR1Bs. 73110-9 originally had BR1Fs. I don't know about any later swaps. (Source - Summer 1962 Combined) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) Both 73080 & 73081 ran with BR1b tenders ( numbers 1206 & 1207)for the whole of their short lives, as it sez here in 'Book Of The Standard Class 5' by Irwell Press. Edited March 6, 2015 by bike2steam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) I suspect you can only renumber it within the 73000-49 range (mines become the S&D's 73047), but I'm away from home at the moment so cant get to my book on the Standard 4-6-0s. Although they are different tenders, those attached to 73050-52 and 73053-'I can't remember' ... also look the same (except for they may have tender doors and something else) (but different BR number designation) and are different water capacity ??, so the size and shape of the coal space may be different. Another thing to watch for is that some were repainted green, eg 73014, 73049, 73054, one of 73050-52, and probably more. Again it's all in the book on the Standards which is a mine of information. If your swopping tenders, another thing to watch is the cab entrance. Some locos had the extra vertical hand rail, some some weather sheeting, some a tender fall plate, some a 'sort of' 'cab back'. Basically the locos cab features go with the type of tender attached. Have a look at the photos. I've converted Bachmann's green 73014 to the S&D's 73054 by removing the 'cab back' and vertical handrail and adding the tender doors. Edited March 6, 2015 by Combe Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2015 73050-52 had BR1G. ...5000 gal tanks, with fall plate and gangway doors. 73080-89 had high sided BR1B no water pick up stuff as SR had no water troughs. 73049 was also a bit tricky as it was repainted green at Eastleigh so had lining to top and bottom of the running plate as opposed to those done by Swindon where lining was applied only to the lower edge of the running plate..... Standard indeed....not Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I've access to my Standards book now. You can't renumber 73030 to a named loco without changing the tender. Only 73080-89 (BR1B) and 73110-19 (BR1F) carried names. If you change the tender you also need to modify the loco cab entrance too by removing the 'cab back' (whatever its called) and 2nd vertical handrail. All the tenders not attached to 73000-49 had fall plates and doors attached to the tender. Although these are referred to as gangway doors (to me gangway suggests something to do with corridor connections) I think a better description is cabside entrance doors. So if you want to renumber 73030 without modifying the loco cab keep it within the 73000-49 range, but beware of those being repainted green !, .ie 73001,3,12,14,15,18,21,23,24,26,27,29,31,32,34-37,40 and 49. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2015 If the Southern is your thing I seem to recall that 73043 ran on the southern at the end of steam. I could be wrong but certainly this would be the right combination of loco and tender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) To do any of 73050-52 (BR1G) or 73053-64 (BR1H) you'll also have to modify the cab and it's entrance in the same way as for changing the tender (as I've said in post 6). Also you'll need to fit the tender doors too, and fall plate (if you want to). This is what I've done to create 73054. 73050 was transferred away from the S&D in march 1964. Edited March 9, 2015 by Combe Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2015 If the Southern is your thing I seem to recall that 73043 ran on the southern at the end of steam. I could be wrong but certainly this would be the right combination of loco and tender. 73043 did indeed spend the last 5 years of its short life on the Southern Region - http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=73043&loco=73043 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'm not entirely sure on it's accuracy, but I've found 'Cade's Locomotive Guide' to be a great source of information for things such as tender type and loco number combinations.Under the 5MT's, it has a list of engine numbers by batch, and the tenders they were fitted with when new.Simplified version, ignoring regional allocation when built and build place...73000 - 73049: BR173050 - 73052: BR1G 73053 - 73064: BR1H 73065 - 73079: BR1C 73080 - 73089: BR1B 73090 - 73099: BR1C 73100 - 73109: BR1B 73110 - 73119: BR1F 73120 - 73134: BR1B 73135 - 73144: BR1C 73145 - 73171: BR1B As said, I'm not sure how accurate that is, from the book. So do correct me if I'm wrong.Regards,Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'm not entirely sure on it's accuracy, but I've found 'Cade's Locomotive Guide' to be a great source of information for things such as tender type and loco number combinations. Under the 5MT's, it has a list of engine numbers by batch, and the tenders they were fitted with when new. Simplified version, ignoring regional allocation when built and build place... 73000 - 73049: BR1 73050 - 73052: BR1G 73053 - 73064: BR1H 73065 - 73079: BR1C 73080 - 73089: BR1B 73090 - 73099: BR1C 73100 - 73109: BR1B 73110 - 73119: BR1F 73120 - 73134: BR1B 73135 - 73144: BR1C 73145 - 73171: BR1B As said, I'm not sure how accurate that is, from the book. So do correct me if I'm wrong. Regards, Matt That list matches my copy of the 1959 Ian Allan ABC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Indeed gentlemen, those quoted on the last two posts were the INITIAL allocations, which would probably change once the loco concerned entered works for overhaul or intermediate repair. In the last years of steam the Southern Region would hold many locos in store, such as the many that used to be held in the 'New Shed' at Nine Elms, where if a serviceable loco's tender sprung a leak, it would be changed. The best source of information IS the Irwell Press book listing, if not all, most of the changes that occurred in the Standard 5 class. http://www.irwellpress.com/acatalog/BRITISH_RAILWAYS.html Edited March 10, 2015 by bike2steam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) I'm working from the RCTS book 'A detailed history of BRITISH RAILWAYS STANDARD STEAM LOCOMOTIVES Volume Two: The 4-6-0 and 2-6-0 Classes' one of a series of books by the RCTS about the Standards. It's about 3/4 of an inch thick and is very detailed. The above in post 11 is certainly correct, but for clarification, there were only 3 body styles of tender attached to the Standard 5s. BR1+BR1G+BR1H, BR1B+BR1C, and BR1F. Certainly BR1G and BR1H looked like a BR1 although BR1G had a higher water capacity with the same coal capacity, so where they put the extra I don't know ! The other differences were the addition of fall plate and cab side doors. What bike2steam says above is correct in that there would have been tender swops at a shed, but it's most likely to have been with the same type of tender. Certainly I would have thought that 73000-49 could only be fitted with another BR1 tender, and a BR1 tender could only be fitted to 73000-49. Unless of course it was done at the works and they made cab back/handrail/tender draught screen/fall plate/door modifications at the same time. Edited March 10, 2015 by Combe Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffers Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 For an S&D Standard 5 I just renumbered 73030 to 73028. You could also renumber to 73019. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Mine became 73047. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Certainly I would have thought that 73000-49 could only be fitted with another BR1 tender, and a BR1 tender could only be fitted to 73000-49. That's what I thought until I found out 73007 was coupled to a BR1B for a short time, one of four tenders that particular loco was coupled to at one time or another. But 73007 was the only loco, in the first 50, to have any other than a BR1. 73059, went from BR1h to BR1c, 73098 went from BR1c to BR1h, 73102 BR1b to BR1, 73110 BR1f to BR1b, 73115 f to c, 73122 BR1b to BR1 then BR1b, with the rest being same type swaps ( or near enough if you compare the BR1b, and c), and a lot less than what I originally thought. All this info is brought to you via the book I mentioned earlier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2015 That's what I thought until I found out 73007 was coupled to a BR1B for a short time, one of four tenders that particular loco was coupled to at one time or another. But 73007 was the only loco, in the first 50, to have any other than a BR1. 73059, went from BR1h to BR1c, 73098 went from BR1c to BR1h, 73102 BR1b to BR1, 73110 BR1f to BR1b, 73115 f to c, 73122 BR1b to BR1 then BR1b, with the rest being same type swaps ( or near enough if you compare the BR1b, and c), and a lot less than what I originally thought. All this info is brought to you via the book I mentioned earlier. So as I just said earlier. .......Standards.....not!! To be fair the Irwell books are pretty much spot on.. You can never have too many books Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'm working from the RCTS book 'A detailed history of BRITISH RAILWAYS STANDARD STEAM LOCOMOTIVES Volume Two: The 4-6-0 and 2-6-0 Classes' one of a series of books by the RCTS about the Standards. It's about 3/4 of an inch thick and is very detailed. The above in post 11 is certainly correct, but for clarification, there were only 3 body styles of tender attached to the Standard 5s. BR1+BR1G+BR1H, BR1B+BR1C, and BR1F. Certainly BR1G and BR1H looked like a BR1 although BR1G had a higher water capacity with the same coal capacity, so where they put the extra I don't know ! The other differences were the addition of fall plate and cab side doors. What bike2steam says above is correct in that there would have been tender swops at a shed, but it's most likely to have been with the same type of tender. Certainly I would have thought that 73000-49 could only be fitted with another BR1 tender, and a BR1 tender could only be fitted to 73000-49. Unless of course it was done at the works and they made cab back/handrail/tender draught screen/fall plate/door modifications at the same time. The excellent RCTS book states that 73115 had a replacement BR1B tender in the summer of 1965 instead of the BR1F tender that 73110-73119 were fitted with. (They were the only locos that had that type). The book does say that "according to available record cards all but a few standard 5s retained the same tender for the whole of their working lives". For short lived engines that would make sense. It mentions that 73005 had the tender from scrapped Clan 72002 in February 1964. Also "it is believed that" a few Standard 5s had BR1D tenders from 70045-54 group Britannias, but this is all at the very end of steam anyway. Interesting subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Abel Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 Thanks to everyone who's provided details/feedback - almost overwhelming amounts of information, which is definitely good I've some books for reference but being located in the US it's harder to source reference material without the inevitable large expense of shipping <sigh> I was/am rather hoping to have another "named" 5MT, just because I like them (poor excuse I know!), but it seems rather harder than I'd expected to track down a donor Bachmann BR1B tender, so will probably for now just go with a suitable renumber... I could steal the BR1B form my 9F but then I'd be left with a 9F and a BR1 tender, which best I can tell never happened, can't win I guess Thanks again for all the input. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'm in a somewhat similar situation in that one Bachmann std5 I bought second hand some years ago was one of the later ones, with BR1B tender. I renumbered/named it as 73112, for nostalgic reasons, which should have had a BR1F tender. Because of a similar thread to this one, I've revisited the problem and am exchanging tenders with another RMweb member who is kindly sending me a 1F one as a swap for the 1B. Win/win situation. I put an ad in the classifieds on here and got a positive reply. So finally, the loco should soon be sorted.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'm in a somewhat similar situation in that one Bachmann std5 I bought second hand some years ago was one of the later ones, with BR1B tender. I renumbered/named it as 73112, for nostalgic reasons, which should have had a BR1F tender. Because of a similar thread to this one, I've revisited the problem and am exchanging tenders with another RMweb member who is kindly sending me a 1F one as a swap for the 1B. Win/win situation. I put an ad in the classifieds on here and got a positive reply. So finally, the loco should soon be sorted.... Probably not a good time to mention I acquired another 'Red Knight' for renaming purposes... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Abel Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'd love to get a similar thing happen, unfortunately, being in the US poses an additional postage cost for even a simple exchange <sigh> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Probably not a good time to mention I acquired another 'Red Knight' for renaming purposes... Actually Red Knight 73110 is one of my "spots" in my Ian Allen book for 62/63 so since Bachmann made one all I have to do is look out for one and eventually.... I've got 73030, which I was going to renumber to 73029 (another spot) but that got painted green in July 1963 (and was originally a WR engine) so I've not made my mind up yet on which one to do, it runs as 730 at the moment :-) My 2 are very good runners, I think it was a good Bachmann model. 73030 is capable of running very slowly as well, it's been crawling round the layout on a long freight for a while.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Abel Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 Well the two Bachmann 73030's that I have are excellent runners for sure and generally lovely models. I'm going to do some detailing of the cab areas, and add coal to the tenders, then one of them will become a donor for my first <shudder> attempt at some light engine weathering... I've also got a DJH 73081 that was built and painted for me that is wonderful, but I can't quite spring for another such commission probably in my lifetime <sigh> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Also "it is believed that" a few Standard 5s had BR1D tenders from 70045-54 group Britannias, but this is all at the very end of steam anyway. I'd love to see a picture of that. Not being sarcastic/doubting - I really would! Edited March 10, 2015 by pH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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