Grimly Feendish Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Hi All, I'm thinking about what would be involved in a "Watch the trains go by" type layout of Sonning cutting. Whilst pondering a track plan it occurred to me that I am not 100% certain of the arrangement of the running lines. I'm assuming the fast lines would be in the center and the relief lines on the outside. Can anyone tell me if this is correct? The time frame is in the mid-late '70s. Looking at pictures it seems that in my chosen era the fast lines were concrete sleepers. On the photos I've found it's hard to tell if the relief lines are wooden or concrete. Can anyone shed any light on this too? Thanks, John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Hi All, I'm thinking about what would be involved in a "Watch the trains go by" type layout of Sonning cutting. Whilst pondering a track plan it occurred to me that I am not 100% certain of the arrangement of the running lines. I'm assuming the fast lines would be in the center and the relief lines on the outside. Can anyone tell me if this is correct? The time frame is in the mid-late '70s. Looking at pictures it seems that in my chosen era the fast lines were concrete sleepers. On the photos I've found it's hard to tell if the relief lines are wooden or concrete. Can anyone shed any light on this too? Thanks, John. There are no specific rules in the UK. Where you have quadruple tracks (two lines in either direction) they can either be paired by speed / classification, or paired by direction. Many main lines feature examples of both at various points as the choice as to which method was used depended on lots of local factors including when the extra lines were built and whether they were adapted from existing facilities (for example loops that got made longer). Its also worth noting that hardly any railways started life as anything more than double track - the extra lines being laid later as traffic grew. This is particularly obvious on the GWML as the original double track was of course laid to Brunel's broad gauge so bridge arches* had to be wider. The relief lines were added after the GWR had converted to standard gauge and as such the arches* could be a bit narrower. *Said arched bridges are tending to vanish as part of the electrification works though In the case of the GWML the 4 tracks between London and Reading (including Soning cutting) are paired by speed. One pair are the up & down slow lines (officially known as the relief lines), the other pair are the up and down main lines. I believe the relief lines are on the Northern side of the formation from London to Didcot (the limit of continuous quadruple track). As to the types of sleepers, that will have to wait for one of our Western region experts to answer specifically, but by the mid 70s the use of concrete sleepers on our main lines was very much the norm. Thus a busy line like the GWML is quite likely to feature them - including the relief lines. Edited March 22, 2015 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Martino Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2015 Yes Phil, in Sonning the relief lines were the northern mist ones. So, going north to south, up relief, down relief, up main, down main. In the 70’s it was all concrete sleepered if I remember correctly. The main, fast, lines were the original Brunel lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) The preferred method of quadrupling is to pair by direction, normally with the fast Lines in the centre and the additional lines on the outside. Sonning Cutting uses the most common GWR/BRWR method of pairing where lines are paired by use. The Main Lines lie on the southside and the Relief Lines on the north as Phil said. there have however long been no such thing as 'Slow Lines' on the Western - even before the 1890s quadrupling the additional lines had been called Relief Lines and in fact the linespeed on places on them in the former London Division is now as high as it was not all that many years ago on the Main Lines! Incidentally the London Division quadrupling from the London area to Didcot is the only stretch of longer distance quadruple track on the Western (including the GWR) where, seen from a Down train, the Main Lines are on the left. The section of quadruple track through Sonning Cutting was opened to traffic in June 1893 as the penultimate part of the scheme to quadruple between Maidenhead and Didcot (the final section was through Reading station which came into use with the rebuilt station in 1899) which had commenced following abolition of the broad gauge. Quadrupling east of Maidenhead bridge had begun much earlier with work to introduce an additional line in various places starting in the early 1870s, the first real stretch of GWR quadruple track came into use between Castle Hill (West Ealing) and West London Jcn (Old Oak Common East) in June 1876 and was both completed both eastwards and out to Southall in May 1877 in two main stages, then to West Drayton in 1878, Slough in 1879 and finally, to the east end of Maidenhead Bridge in 1884. They were originally called 'Fast' and 'Slow' Lines following LNWR practice but this was altered to 'Main' and 'Relief' from 1 January 1880 and they were of course laid as either broad or mixed gauge Edited March 22, 2015 by The Stationmaster 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodmin16 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Apologies for slight off topic but is the SW between Wimbledon and Worting the only four track mainline whereby the "slow" or "relief" lines are on the outside and the fast lines in the centre? Also I seem to recall an exhibition layout that featured Sonning Common in GWR days? Think your layout would make great exhibition layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I'm sure it's been posted before, but on the short section of paired-by-direction quadruple track between Southampton Central and Millbrook, the fast lines are on the outside... Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 ECML 4-track sections paired by direction; From the flyover outside Kings X to Welwyn, Langley Jc Stevenage to Huntingdon, and Skelton Jc York to Northallerton. Also on the WCML, some sections between Crewe and Weaver Jc are the same arrangement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 If you perform a search of "Sonning Cutting" on Flickr, you get photos such as this https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/6304366384/in/photolist-dyLHJM-4TVLL4-pLRNMP-aB6wu9-pJBzTw-8hpGvz-dvoRN4-pxYhTA-duKTBJ-8JKsiX-7pMmku-qGtQuj-dp1Hhe-j8bAhe-a2nVMS-oWKgTy-oWbiZE-dhe7vu-bCMgSU-b86UL8-eYk5rA-e7yLut-aBUA7w-dRnhJF-p312s6-bRA1FK-dLWLFu-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZWand this https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/8208919571/in/photolist-dyLHJM-4TVLL4-pLRNMP-aB6wu9-pJBzTw-8hpGvz-dvoRN4-pxYhTA-duKTBJ-8JKsiX-7pMmku-qGtQuj-dp1Hhe-j8bAhe-a2nVMS-oWKgTy-oWbiZE-dhe7vu-bCMgSU-b86UL8-eYk5rA-e7yLut-aBUA7w-dRnhJF-p312s6-bRA1FK-dLWLFu-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZW where it appears that, while all tracks are fb rail, the fast lines are cwr and concrete sleeper with the flat clips (sorry can't remember their name) but the relief lines are still shorter section fb rails with fishplates and 'pandrol' clips on what appear to be wooden sleepers. I would say, look at as many of these photos as possible in order to decide, because there are a variety of angles from this https://www.flickr.com/photos/54a_south_dock/11895703733/in/photolist-dyLHJM-4TVLL4-pLRNMP-aB6wu9-pJBzTw-8hpGvz-dvoRN4-pxYhTA-duKTBJ-8JKsiX-7pMmku-qGtQuj-dp1Hhe-j8bAhe-a2nVMS-oWKgTy-oWbiZE-dhe7vu-bCMgSU-b86UL8-eYk5rA-e7yLut-aBUA7w-dRnhJF-p312s6-bRA1FK-dLWLFu-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZWwhich are almost overhead, to this https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/6745438099/in/photolist-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZW-pt5jKd-8bW6oi-9dWAWb-7o2CdL-7o2ANd-q1nDW3-9bKu7R-dwb7Vy-dwb835-myaWhT-a6GfWo-9bKuNT-byJSLC-8NJxNr-dBC9sy-eddwEx-dw5yRR-dXVdyx-f8UjZj-dwb7SY-byJSkU-edJ46k-9dWBe9-cffPeb-ccFHgA-8eWDpg-dw5yPM which is more side on. And if that was not enough variation, it would appear that one of the relief lines was chaired bullhead track until about 1975 as seen here https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/6224042027/in/photolist-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZW-pt5jKd-8bW6oi-9dWAWb-7o2CdL-7o2ANd-q1nDW3-9bKu7R-dwb7Vy-dwb835-myaWhT-a6GfWo-9bKuNT-byJSLC-8NJxNr-dBC9sy-eddwEx-dw5yRR-dXVdyx-f8UjZj-dwb7SY-byJSkU-edJ46k-9dWBe9-cffPeb-ccFHgA-8eWDpg-dw5yPM-dw89ot-bMDwLc-8eWEra Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForestPines Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Apologies for slight off topic but is the SW between Wimbledon and Worting the only four track mainline whereby the "slow" or "relief" lines are on the outside and the fast lines in the centre? That is the standard arrangement on the four-track stretches of the ECML, the main exception being Colton Jn-Skelton Bridge Jn. It's also the arrangement on the South Wales main line from Severn Tunnel Jn to Bishton, but that's a relatively short stretch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2015 If you perform a search of "Sonning Cutting" on Flickr, you get photos such as this https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/6304366384/in/photolist-dyLHJM-4TVLL4-pLRNMP-aB6wu9-pJBzTw-8hpGvz-dvoRN4-pxYhTA-duKTBJ-8JKsiX-7pMmku-qGtQuj-dp1Hhe-j8bAhe-a2nVMS-oWKgTy-oWbiZE-dhe7vu-bCMgSU-b86UL8-eYk5rA-e7yLut-aBUA7w-dRnhJF-p312s6-bRA1FK-dLWLFu-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZWand this https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/8208919571/in/photolist-dyLHJM-4TVLL4-pLRNMP-aB6wu9-pJBzTw-8hpGvz-dvoRN4-pxYhTA-duKTBJ-8JKsiX-7pMmku-qGtQuj-dp1Hhe-j8bAhe-a2nVMS-oWKgTy-oWbiZE-dhe7vu-bCMgSU-b86UL8-eYk5rA-e7yLut-aBUA7w-dRnhJF-p312s6-bRA1FK-dLWLFu-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZW where it appears that, while all tracks are fb rail, the fast lines are cwr and concrete sleeper with the flat clips (sorry can't remember their name) but the relief lines are still shorter section fb rails with fishplates and 'pandrol' clips on what appear to be wooden sleepers. I would say, look at as many of these photos as possible in order to decide, because there are a variety of angles from this https://www.flickr.com/photos/54a_south_dock/11895703733/in/photolist-dyLHJM-4TVLL4-pLRNMP-aB6wu9-pJBzTw-8hpGvz-dvoRN4-pxYhTA-duKTBJ-8JKsiX-7pMmku-qGtQuj-dp1Hhe-j8bAhe-a2nVMS-oWKgTy-oWbiZE-dhe7vu-bCMgSU-b86UL8-eYk5rA-e7yLut-aBUA7w-dRnhJF-p312s6-bRA1FK-dLWLFu-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZWwhich are almost overhead, to this https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/6745438099/in/photolist-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZW-pt5jKd-8bW6oi-9dWAWb-7o2CdL-7o2ANd-q1nDW3-9bKu7R-dwb7Vy-dwb835-myaWhT-a6GfWo-9bKuNT-byJSLC-8NJxNr-dBC9sy-eddwEx-dw5yRR-dXVdyx-f8UjZj-dwb7SY-byJSkU-edJ46k-9dWBe9-cffPeb-ccFHgA-8eWDpg-dw5yPM which is more side on. And if that was not enough variation, it would appear that one of the relief lines was chaired bullhead track until about 1975 as seen here https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/6224042027/in/photolist-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZW-pt5jKd-8bW6oi-9dWAWb-7o2CdL-7o2ANd-q1nDW3-9bKu7R-dwb7Vy-dwb835-myaWhT-a6GfWo-9bKuNT-byJSLC-8NJxNr-dBC9sy-eddwEx-dw5yRR-dXVdyx-f8UjZj-dwb7SY-byJSkU-edJ46k-9dWBe9-cffPeb-ccFHgA-8eWDpg-dw5yPM-dw89ot-bMDwLc-8eWEra All the bullhead has now gone (in the cutting that is) but I I'm not sure if all of the Reliefs are concrete sleepers - alas 'modern' dmus don't afford much of a view. The Mains were relayed with concrete sleepers with SCH clips (those 'flat' ones in the very late 1960s/early '70s when they were also deep ballasted preparatory to raising line speeds. Incidentally the view of the cutting itself has much improved recently due to major, and seemingly ongoing, 'jungle clearance' - starting to quite look like its old self. BTW quadruple track was created in Sonning Cutting by widening the formation on each side of the existing broad gauge double track side - I think it was the only way it was done in this fashion west of Taplow. In the photo below - originally linked by Jonny777 - this can clearly be seen at the bridge in the background where originally (and until the early 1970s) the Down Main on the extreme left went round the outside of the bridge pier, as the Up Relief on the extreme right still does. https://www.flickr.com/photos/54a_south_dock/11895703733/in/photolist-dyLHJM-4TVLL4-pLRNMP-aB6wu9-pJBzTw-8hpGvz-dvoRN4-pxYhTA-duKTBJ-8JKsiX-7pMmku-qGtQuj-dp1Hhe-j8bAhe-a2nVMS-oWKgTy-oWbiZE-dhe7vu-bCMgSU-b86UL8-eYk5rA-e7yLut-aBUA7w-dRnhJF-p312s6-bRA1FK-dLWLFu-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZW Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Miles Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 My personal view is never build a model which involves a lot of line in a cutting. You end up with a helicopter view of the trains. Better to have a flatish baseboard of, even better, a line on an embankment. Gives a better view of the train. Before the usual brickbats arrives - I stress, this ia a personal view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2015 From Victoria and London Bridge to Balcombe Tunnel Junction is a 4-track railway, albeit between Stoats Nest Junction and Earlswood the pairs of lines are some way apart with separate alignments, tunnels etc.. The London Bridge and Victoria lines merge at Windmill Bridge Junction, north of East Croydon. From Victoria to Windmill Bridge the lines are paired by function, as they then are to Balcombe Tunnel. The line from London Bridge to Windmill Bridge, OTOH, is paired by direction. This line was completed first, the London Brighton and South Coast being joint owners with the South Eastern Railway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I nearly spat my Cornflakes out when I read the title of the thread! No disrespect to you John but if you ever get a job on the WR and you value your very existence, don't ask anyone in railway uniform ''here, which one's the slow line then mate?'' unless you're wearing flame retardent undergarments and standing at least half a mile away.... A few months after I joined the WR we had another intake of traction trainees at 81A, one of them asked the much respected Shedmaster Norman Porter quite innocently if 'the slow lines go all the way to Didcot'.... now, old uncle Norman was a red faced chap at the best of times (pickled in Bulmers cider during his last years in the job) but his face that day went the colour of a beetroot. The poor wee lad didn't know where to look having been 'put straight' by the rest of us in the mess room...! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2015 I nearly spat my Cornflakes out when I read the title of the thread! No disrespect to you John but if you ever get a job on the WR and you value your very existence, don't ask anyone in railway uniform ''here, which one's the slow line then mate?'' unless you're wearing flame retardent undergarments and standing at least half a mile away.... A few months after I joined the WR we had another intake of traction trainees at 81A, one of them asked the much respected Shedmaster Norman Porter quite innocently if 'the slow lines go all the way to Didcot'.... now, old uncle Norman was a red faced chap at the best of times (pickled in Bulmers cider during his last years in the job) but his face that day went the colour of a beetroot. The poor wee lad didn't know where to look having been 'put straight' by the rest of us in the mess room...! Believe or not I did once get someone referring to 'slow lines' in reply to a question (about some feature on the WR) at an interview. That, albeit along with several other things, convinced me that he clearly wasn't interested in the job as he obviously hadn't bothered to do any research prior to the interview so I duly gave him his just reward and didn't even consider him for it when weighing up the interview results. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2015 Sonning Cutting uses the most common GWR/BRWR method of pairing where lines are paired by use. The Main Lines lie on the southside and the Relief Lines on the north as Phil said. there have however long been no such thing as 'Slow Lines' on the Western - even before the 1890s quadrupling the additional lines had been called Relief Lines and in fact the linespeed on places on them in the former London Division is now as high as it was not all that many years ago on the Main Lines! Does anyone have any idea why the GWR adopted this stance. After all other companies were quite happy using both "slow" and "relief" designations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 GWR arrogance most likely. "We do not have slow lines, because our trains are never slow". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2015 Does anyone have any idea why the GWR adopted this stance. After all other companies were quite happy using both "slow" and "relief" designations. I don't know why - as I've mentioned above the terms were brought into use on 1 January 1880. According to McDermott the decision to change the terminology was made by James Grierson the then General Manager of the GWR. When you think about it there was actually a degree of logic in changing the designation as the purpose of the additional lines was to relieve the Main Lines of a number of trains in order to ease congestion - and as Grierson seems to have had a reputation for being a thinking man that would make sense. Additionally of course there seems at that time to have been no significant distinction in speed between the two sets of lines, at least in the London area although there certainly was in later years and elsewhere, for example in the Western and Cardiff Valleys the Relief Lines were in fact worked under Goods Permissive Regulations while the Main Lines were Absolute Block. It might also of course simply have been an attempt to distinguish GWR practice from that of the LNWR whose naming convention had been used until then. GWR arrogance most likely. "We do not have slow lines, because our trains are never slow". Some truth in that as the GWR was still at that time running some of the fastest trains in the world However judging by Grierson's reputation I would think his reasons were hardly that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Relief lines, that's what we call what used to be goods loops on the North Western mainline. Although with all those little stations the GWML Reliefs are actually more like the Euston - Watford DC lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) I don't know why - as I've mentioned above the terms were brought into use on 1 January 1880. According to McDermott the decision to change the terminology was made by James Grierson the then General Manager of the GWR. When you think about it there was actually a degree of logic in changing the designation as the purpose of the additional lines was to relieve the Main Lines of a number of trains in order to ease congestion - and as Grierson seems to have had a reputation for being a thinking man that would make sense. Additionally of course there seems at that time to have been no significant distinction in speed between the two sets of lines, at least in the London area although there certainly was in later years and elsewhere, for example in the Western and Cardiff Valleys the Relief Lines were in fact worked under Goods Permissive Regulations while the Main Lines were Absolute Block. It might also of course simply have been an attempt to distinguish GWR practice from that of the LNWR whose naming convention had been used until then. While this is indeed true, being pedantic and using that reasoning then by rights express passenger, slow freight and stopping services would all have used both pairs at all times. In reality of course this did not happen (because mixing trains with large speed differential is very wasteful of line capacity). Now naturally the GWR wasn't stupid and it obviously used the new 'relief' lines as a way of moving slower speed trains (freight and stoppers) out of the way of fast express services - which stayed on the 'mains' Thus labelling the lines based on the average speed of the trains that used them is equally valid and is why, based on the observation of traffic, anyone without detailed knowledge is quite likely to pump for 'fasts' and 'slows'. However without recource to a time machine we are unlikely to know Mr Grieson's reasoning and as such they are what he said they are - after all over on the GEML we have the 'electric' and 'main' lines, both of which were electrified at the same time. Again by observation 'fast' and 'slows' would be the guess of the unknowing. Edited March 22, 2015 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2015 Relief lines, that's what we call what used to be goods loops on the North Western mainline. Although with all those little stations the GWML Reliefs are actually more like the Euston - Watford DC lines. Trouble is the stopping passenger trains get in the way of the freights which tend to be faster overall - so freights were put on the Mains whenever possible. While this is indeed true, being pedantic and using that reasoning then by rights express passenger, slow freight and stopping services would all have used both pairs at all times. In reality of course this did not happen (because mixing trains with large speed differential is very wasteful of line capacity). Now naturally the GWR wasn't stupid and it obviously used the new 'relief' lines as a way of moving slower speed trains (freight and stoppers) out of the way of fast express services - which stayed on the 'mains' Thus labelling the lines based on the average speed of the trains that used them is equally valid and is why, based on the observation of traffic, anyone without detailed knowledge is quite likely to pump for 'fasts' and 'slows'. But mixing like that is exactly what has happened at various times - and still does with some Turbos booked over the mains at certain times of day (not the all stations stoppers) while some HSTs run on the Reliefs. I shall have a look at the 1892 service book and see what happened then although I know that different lamps were used on the Main & Relief Lines at that time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 In reality there are more than two groups of trains with different average speeds - probably four or five at the London end of the GWML and similarly for most other four-track main lines. Hence the benefits of pairing by direction: trains can swap between the fast and slow lines without interacting with those in the other direction, so a train of intermediate speed can easily weave between the two lines available. Different companies had different traffic mixes. For example the four-track Midland Main Line had heavy and slow coal traffic which originally used most of the capacity on the Slow lines (which were actually designated as Goods lines and worked by permissive block over much of their length. All passenger trains, which at most stations were the only ones with platforms, along with some of the faster freight. For this traffic mix a "paired by use" configuration was probably sensible, as it allowed passenger working including reversals to carry on without interference from the freights. However the London coal traffic has now gone and south of Bedford the Slow lines are used by the intensive Thameslink service, which involves significant "weaving" as above, and a paired by direction configuration would now work much better on this route with flyovers at strategic locations just as on the Great Northern. However because of the cost and disruption (including rebuilding most of the stations so what become the fast lines get a straight unrestricted route through) this will never happen. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2015 The big advantage of pairing by use is when you have short terminating trains (or ones to/from branches) plus local freight facilities and yards as both can avoid the need to go across all 4 running lines but can just stay on one pair on one side. Most of the GW branches in the London Division came (come) off the Relief Lines side (with the exceptions of Brentford, Windsor, Basingstoke and Newbury) and most of the freight facilities were also ultimately on that side although the majority (but only 3:2!) of the engine sheds were on the Main Lines side. Both types of pairing have their advantages and disadvantages although running junctions when paired by direction are - as Edwin has said - simpler to operate and also simpler and cheaper to provide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium CloggyDog Posted March 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2015 ECML 4-track sections paired by direction; From the flyover outside Kings X to Welwyn, Langley Jc Stevenage to Huntingdon, and Skelton Jc York to Northallerton. Also on the WCML, some sections between Crewe and Weaver Jc are the same arrangement. And the GE mainline is also paired by direction with the main northern side/slow southern side Liv St to Ilford flyover where they swap (slow over main) through to Shenfield Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2015 And the GE mainline is also paired by direction with the main northern side/slow southern side Liv St to Ilford flyover where they swap (slow over main) through to Shenfield Which also applies to the LSWR main line, with a flyover between Wimbledon and Earlsfield to bring the up slow line trains over the fasts, thus converting by-direction to by-function. Fast & Slow? What about Through and Local, much used on Southern? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimly Feendish Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Wow! Thanks every one for such an interesting response. It's amazing that what I thought was a fairly straight forward question can bring forward such a font of knowledge. That's one of the things I love about this hobby, there is usually a lot more to things than meet the eye if one cares to look. It's great that fellow enthusiasts are so generous in taking the time to educate others. If this project ever becomes more that a figment of my imagination I'll be sure to post on here. Thanks again, John. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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