Fast and relief lines in Sonning cutting

[Grimly Feendish]

 

In the case of the GWML the 4 tracks between London and Reading (including Soning cutting) are paired by speed. One pair are the up & down slow lines (officially known as the relief lines), the other pair are the up and down main lines. I believe the relief lines are on the Northern side of the formation from London to Didcot (the limit of continuous quadruple track).

 

As to the types of sleepers, that will have to wait for one of our Western region experts to answer specifically, but by the mid 70s the use of concrete sleepers on our main lines was very much the norm. Thus a busy line like the GWML is quite likely to feature them - including the relief lines.

 

That's perfect, just what I needed to know.

 

Thanks,

 

John.

[Grimly Feendish]

If you perform a search of "Sonning Cutting" on Flickr, you get photos such as this https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/6304366384/in/photolist-dyLHJM-4TVLL4-pLRNMP-aB6wu9-pJBzTw-8hpGvz-dvoRN4-pxYhTA-duKTBJ-8JKsiX-7pMmku-qGtQuj-dp1Hhe-j8bAhe-a2nVMS-oWKgTy-oWbiZE-dhe7vu-bCMgSU-b86UL8-eYk5rA-e7yLut-aBUA7w-dRnhJF-p312s6-bRA1FK-dLWLFu-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZWand this https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/8208919571/in/photolist-dyLHJM-4TVLL4-pLRNMP-aB6wu9-pJBzTw-8hpGvz-dvoRN4-pxYhTA-duKTBJ-8JKsiX-7pMmku-qGtQuj-dp1Hhe-j8bAhe-a2nVMS-oWKgTy-oWbiZE-dhe7vu-bCMgSU-b86UL8-eYk5rA-e7yLut-aBUA7w-dRnhJF-p312s6-bRA1FK-dLWLFu-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZW

 

where it appears that, while all tracks are fb rail, the fast lines are cwr and concrete sleeper with the flat clips (sorry can't remember their name) but the relief lines are still shorter section fb rails with fishplates and 'pandrol' clips on what appear to be wooden sleepers.

 

I would say, look at as many of these photos as possible in order to decide, because there are a variety of angles from this https://www.flickr.com/photos/54a_south_dock/11895703733/in/photolist-dyLHJM-4TVLL4-pLRNMP-aB6wu9-pJBzTw-8hpGvz-dvoRN4-pxYhTA-duKTBJ-8JKsiX-7pMmku-qGtQuj-dp1Hhe-j8bAhe-a2nVMS-oWKgTy-oWbiZE-dhe7vu-bCMgSU-b86UL8-eYk5rA-e7yLut-aBUA7w-dRnhJF-p312s6-bRA1FK-dLWLFu-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZWwhich are almost overhead, to this https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/6745438099/in/photolist-bh58JT-d2Nqu9-aFeVQg-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZW-pt5jKd-8bW6oi-9dWAWb-7o2CdL-7o2ANd-q1nDW3-9bKu7R-dwb7Vy-dwb835-myaWhT-a6GfWo-9bKuNT-byJSLC-8NJxNr-dBC9sy-eddwEx-dw5yRR-dXVdyx-f8UjZj-dwb7SY-byJSkU-edJ46k-9dWBe9-cffPeb-ccFHgA-8eWDpg-dw5yPM which is more side on.

 

And if that was not enough variation, it would appear that one of the relief lines was chaired bullhead track until about 1975 as seen here https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/6224042027/in/photolist-atZQRr-jdv7Yu-9fuT6R-nJ4CYU-cEuLco-adFmHq-7RVsU6-9ZS34x-cEuL9S-fFbk8w-nwrZ1Y-bSQbBV-pjdjeZ-joJfdz-moXJJa-dwZEfz-ffvaqS-pr3BJy-7RVpZR-hAi6ZW-pt5jKd-8bW6oi-9dWAWb-7o2CdL-7o2ANd-q1nDW3-9bKu7R-dwb7Vy-dwb835-myaWhT-a6GfWo-9bKuNT-byJSLC-8NJxNr-dBC9sy-eddwEx-dw5yRR-dXVdyx-f8UjZj-dwb7SY-byJSkU-edJ46k-9dWBe9-cffPeb-ccFHgA-8eWDpg-dw5yPM-dw89ot-bMDwLc-8eWEra

 

I'm sitting at O'Hare waiting to see if my flight is cancelled or just hours late, so my bandwidth is limited right now and I can't see those pics.

 

I've spent some time on flickr and am seeing (or think I see) different things at different times, just like your self. It's all a little confusing for a bear of little brain such as myself.

 

Thanks for taking the time to find these. 

 

John.

[Grimly Feendish]

I nearly spat my Cornflakes out when I read the title of the thread! No disrespect to you John but if you ever get a job on the WR and you value your very existence, don't ask anyone in railway uniform ''here, which one's the slow line then mate?'' unless you're wearing flame retardent undergarments and standing at least half a mile away....

 

A few months after I joined the WR we had another intake of traction trainees at 81A, one of them asked the much respected Shedmaster Norman Porter quite innocently if 'the slow lines go all the way to Didcot'.... now, old uncle Norman was a red faced chap at the best of times (pickled in Bulmers cider during his last years in the job) but his face that day went the colour of a beetroot. The poor wee lad didn't know where to look having been 'put straight' by the rest of us in the mess room...! 

 

Sorry Nige! I didn't mean for you to redecorate your kitchen with half eaten corn flakes. Although the mental image does bring a smile to my face.

 

I would have loved to work on the WR, sounds like it's just as well I never applied!

 

John.

[jonny777]

I'm sitting at O'Hare waiting to see if my flight is cancelled or just hours late, so my bandwidth is limited right now and I can't see those pics.

 

I've spent some time on flickr and am seeing (or think I see) different things at different times, just like your self. It's all a little confusing for a bear of little brain such as myself.

 

Thanks for taking the time to find these. 

 

John.

 

 

 

I suspect that the change from bullhead to flatbottom rail on the relief lines was ongoing through the early 1970s, and it maybe that track over part of that stretch had still to be upgraded. It looks as though the down relief was bullhead for many years after the up relief was upgraded, because this 1960 photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/8393597500/in/photolist-dMHo7h-9HbZkQ-bwL8Nt-9oMEXK-bDM34M-cvU9uA-bwLa4B-aM7pND-ck4zKY-9Bm1zv-aEAt5T-dESW5C-brVtQx-bX6hqk-7ncZ5c-cnLnE1-diVSd1-deMq4r-deDukG-i719ur-dgURFh-ckKRRf-crFQ7w-9pxHKt-aYMFbV-7D5b9m-9rVEpX-bwL9CX-mRxuG6-dapEWS-ck4w17-ck4LVo-dqTP2A-oSpgeX-mZaw1q-fAup5p-7wkrt4-9xP1Sm-8tWkQn-8tZrW9-bWBmth-dasShy-iBDR7c-fAunrk-oqeXmK-ou9t6m-8hpCnM-qbccCa-dqQWxp-fBmT1ishows it to be a similar set up 15 years earlier.

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect that the change from bullhead to flatbottom rail on the relief lines was ongoing through the early 1970s, and it maybe that track over part of that stretch had still to be upgraded. It looks as though the down relief was bullhead for many years after the up relief was upgraded, because this 1960 photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/8393597500/in/photolist-dMHo7h-9HbZkQ-bwL8Nt-9oMEXK-bDM34M-cvU9uA-bwLa4B-aM7pND-ck4zKY-9Bm1zv-aEAt5T-dESW5C-brVtQx-bX6hqk-7ncZ5c-cnLnE1-diVSd1-deMq4r-deDukG-i719ur-dgURFh-ckKRRf-crFQ7w-9pxHKt-aYMFbV-7D5b9m-9rVEpX-bwL9CX-mRxuG6-dapEWS-ck4w17-ck4LVo-dqTP2A-oSpgeX-mZaw1q-fAup5p-7wkrt4-9xP1Sm-8tWkQn-8tZrW9-bWBmth-dasShy-iBDR7c-fAunrk-oqeXmK-ou9t6m-8hpCnM-qbccCa-dqQWxp-fBmT1ishows it to be a similar set up 15 years earlier.

I don't think the Up Relief there had been relaid much before 1960 - I've seen some photos on the 'net somewhere in the past showing it being relaid immediately to the east of the nearest bridge in that picture from Robert carroll's collection.  But then just to be different when the new running junction at Land's End (Twyford West) was laid in late 1960/early '61 it was 100% in bullhead including the Main Lines ends!

[jonny777]

You are spot on Mike, because this view shows both reliefs to be bullhead sometime in 1960.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/11561526755/in/photolist-iBDR7c-fAunrk-oqeXmK-ou9t6m-8hpCnM-qbccCa-dqQWxp-fBmT1i-dhLdaS-6CSKXQ-e2L7VN-brKddd-99phmm-bjokQ2-oqxATn-oxy3ET-81A5hh-p4y2Lh-r6ADib-oEZLWS-rk8RMe-9NU5QS-r6ACLQ-4pe7Zt-dEMx4R-qP84EC-eDvi27-ogq1hw-dqRPPd-4NUPtY-dqQWvg-hJmV15-8hsSnh-dqTXv7-ftZgqy-8hpFGM-9oQJAN-mXEdxn-mXE9pV-mXG6p1-mXEerg-mXG3g7-mXE97a-mXE8MT-mXE6Xa-mXG3Tu-mXEaek-mXG5nb-mXEaet-mXE6zr

[caradoc]

And the GE mainline is also paired by direction with the main northern side/slow southern side Liv St to Ilford flyover where they swap (slow over main) through to Shenfield

 

Sorry, but that's partly incorrect: The GE between Shenfield and Liverpool St is paired by use throughout. At Ilford both local lines cross over both through lines. The situation at Wimbledon is different with pairing by direction changing there to pairing by use, heading towards Waterloo. 

[28XX]

For completeness, the 4 track sections of the Birmingham to Bristol line were / are arranged with the fast pair in the middle and the slow lines on the outsides.

[jonny777]

I now see four track mainlines when I close my eyes, but it made me wonder (I know this is going somewhat O/T) - is/has there ever been anywhere on the BR system where two four track routes converge/diverge and all remain four track both sides of the junction?

 

There may be an obvious one but I cant think of it at the moment.

[The Stationmaster]

I now see four track mainlines when I close my eyes, but it made me wonder (I know this is going somewhat O/T) - is/has there ever been anywhere on the BR system where two four track routes converge/diverge and all remain four track both sides of the junction?

 

There may be an obvious one but I cant think of it at the moment.

Crewe? - but they did various other things as well of course and I doubt if it's what you actually meant.

 

I suspect that Crow Nest Junction might come nearer to providing the sort of example you were looking for -

 

http://www.signalbox.org/branches/jh/crownestjcn.htm

[phil-b259]

I now see four track mainlines when I close my eyes, but it made me wonder (I know this is going somewhat O/T) - is/has there ever been anywhere on the BR system where two four track routes converge/diverge and all remain four track both sides of the junction?

 

There may be an obvious one but I cant think of it at the moment.

 

That sort of depends on what you mean because in theory the Norwood Junction / Selhurst / East Croydon triangle is where three 4 track main line routes coverge / diverge, though because of the grade separation its all a bit spread out - with the double track West Croydon line plus Selhurst depot access lines chucked into the mix - its not as obvious as the situation at Crow Nest Junction.

 

In reality while you did get 4 track routes converging / diverging in the manor of Crow Nest Junction to have such a setup on a busy mainline was rare - simply because of all the conflicting movements and the effect they had on capacity and as a result some form grade separation was usually preferred.

 

The other factor of course is that places like Crow Nest grew to be so big thanks mainly to freight traffic or passenger traffic in the pre grouping era when their was lots of competition between companies. Over time rationalisation of services onto principle routes and the downgrading of other to secondary status, followed by the massive decline in freight traffic over the past 50 years removed lots of the traffic from such places meant the infrastructure could be significantly simplified to suit.

[jonny777]

Thanks, and yes; Crow Nest Junction was exactly what I was thinking of.

 

Crewe was slightly different I think because the slow lines to/from Manchester went down to be part of the goods avoiding lines.

[CloggyDog]

Sorry, but that's partly incorrect: The GE between Shenfield and Liverpool St is paired by use throughout. At Ilford both local lines cross over both through lines. The situation at Wimbledon is different with pairing by direction changing there to pairing by use, heading towards Waterloo. 

 

Which is basically what I said... paired by direction with a swap (slow over main) at Ilford.

[Oldddudders]

I now see four track mainlines when I close my eyes, but it made me wonder (I know this is going somewhat O/T) - is/has there ever been anywhere on the BR system where two four track routes converge/diverge and all remain four track both sides of the junction?

 

There may be an obvious one but I cant think of it at the moment.

Windmill Bridge Junction, north of East Croydon, has already been mentioned above, but at Chislehurst Junction, two four-track mainlines, formerly South Eastern Railway and London Chatham & Dover Railway, cross - grade separated. There are spurs to enable trains to and from London to access the other route.

[The Stationmaster]

Which is basically what I said... paired by direction with a swap (slow over main) at Ilford.

Er no.  You said, and have now repeated, that they are paired by direction. They are not (Liverpool St wouldn't work properly if they were!) - the lines are paired by use all the way from Liverpool St station throat through to Shenfield, as caradoc said.  All that happens - in respect of the running line arrangement - at Ilford is that the paired by use Electric Lines are carried on the flyover across the paired by use Main Lines to the northern side (on which side lies Ilford car sheds).  The lines into Liverpool St have always been paired by use but the provision of the flyover also allowed a major crossing movement of traffic flows in the approach to Liverpool St to be avoided 

 

The flyover was provided at the time of electrification and also enabled electric trains to access the new car sheds on the north side without having to cross thatThrough/Main Lines on the flat.

Edited March 24, 2015 by The Stationmaster

[GordonC]

Would Manchester Victoria have counted as a junction where 4 track lines split in years gone by? 4 lines continuing up Miles Platting Bank (not counting the Bury DC lines) and 4 diverging off round by Red Bank/Bury

[caradoc]

Stationmaster has explained it very well. Paired by direction means that the 2 Up lines are next to each other, as are the 2 Down lines,which is not the case on the GE, either between Liverpool St and Shenfield, or Bethnal Green and Hackney Downs.

[ForestPines]

I now see four track mainlines when I close my eyes, but it made me wonder (I know this is going somewhat O/T) - is/has there ever been anywhere on the BR system where two four track routes converge/diverge and all remain four track both sides of the junction?

 

There may be an obvious one but I cant think of it at the moment.

Was Dr Days Jn, Bristol, like this in the past?

[Fat Controller]

Was Dr Days Jn, Bristol, like this in the past?

Looking at the relevant Cooke map (Section 19A, page 16 & 17, it would seem that Dr Day's Bridge Junction was like this on both the Bristol- S Wales and Bath- S Wales sides of the triangle, but the Bristol- Bath side only had an identified Relief Line in the Up direction, so was only three tracks (although it appears there may have been potential routes through the Reception loops in Kingsland Road Yard which might serve as Down Relief lines in extremis).

[PenrithBeacon]

I have always thought that the relief lines through Sonning were standard gauge only. Might be wrong though.

 

Regards

[The Stationmaster]

I have always thought that the relief lines through Sonning were standard gauge only. Might be wrong though.

 

Regards

Post No.4 in this thread and the picture below confirm that you are correct in that assumption although it's all a matter of names because technically the Up Relief and (new) Down Main were only ever standard gauge while the former Up Line which had been mixed gauge became the standard gauge Down Relief after the widening and the former mixed gauge Down Line became the standard gauge Up Main.

 

http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/museums/index.asp?page=image&mwsquery=%28%7BInstitution%7D=%7BWILTM:P%7D%29&mwsquery=%28%7BImageFile%7D=%7BP18166.jpg%7D%29

[Ed Winterbury]

Up Down Up Down on the GW, Up Down Down Up or Down Up Up Down on the LMS quite often, but otherwise, Up Up Down Down

[The Johnster]

Also note the terminology; the GW referred to 'relief' lines while the LMS and LNER seemed to use 'slow'.  Both are different from 'goods' which would be worked by permissive block at a maximum speed of 15mph, and prohibited to passenger carrying trains under normal circumstances.  The 'up up down down' arrangement usually had the 'slow' lines on the outside of the formation, with the main lines, the 'fasts', towards the centre.

[Trog]

 

The Mains were relayed with concrete sleepers with SCH clips (those 'flat' ones in the very late 1960s/early '70s when they were also deep ballasted preparatory to raising line speeds.

 

Just noticed this SHC clips stands for Skull Hoop Clip on the WR and Spring Hoop Clip elsewhere. No prize if you can guess which region Jack Skull the engineer responsible for there use on BR worked for and why they were particularly common on the WR. As mentioned a flat plate tensioned by being held down in the middle by a goal post shaped hoop, while the ends of the clip are raised by the rail foot and a raised iron bar cast into the concrete of the F19 type sleeper. The clips are often helpfully stamped with the letters BJB so you do not confuse them with BJB clips which are something else entirely, in both senses of the meaning.

[The Stationmaster]

Just noticed this SHC clips stands for Skull Hoop Clip on the WR and Spring Hoop Clip elsewhere. No prize if you can guess which region Jack Skull the engineer responsible for there use on BR worked for and why they were particularly common on the WR. As mentioned a flat plate tensioned by being held down in the middle by a goal post shaped hoop, while the ends of the clip are raised by the rail foot and a raised iron bar cast into the concrete of the F19 type sleeper. The clips are often helpfully stamped with the letters BJB so you do not confuse them with BJB clips which are something else entirely, in both senses of the meaning.

 

And no doubt why they were commonly referred to as 'Skully clips' (sorry for getting the C and H in the wrong order).

 

Also note the terminology; the GW referred to 'relief' lines while the LMS and LNER seemed to use 'slow'.  Both are different from 'goods' which would be worked by permissive block at a maximum speed of 15mph, and prohibited to passenger carrying trains under normal circumstances.  The 'up up down down' arrangement usually had the 'slow' lines on the outside of the formation, with the main lines, the 'fasts', towards the centre.

 

Alas it can get far more confusing as the Relief Lines on the Western Valley and Cardiff Valleys were all worked under Permissive Block Regulations.