Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Compound2632]

Triang Lord of the Isles dome works very well. 

 

BFI-DSCF4893.jpg

 

For the large dome on an S4 boiler - is that what Mike meant too? It's the skinner version on an S2 boiler I'm looking at. The author of a 1990 Railway Modeller article on converting the Mainline engine to one with an S2 boiler used a 517 dome from Crownline.

[MikeOxon]

Triang Lord of the Isles dome works very well. 

 

BFI-DSCF4893.jpg

I agree.  That oft-maligned 'toy-like' dome actually represents the sort of polish achieved in Vic/Edwardian times better than a real brass dome (unless you polish daily)

[Brassey]

Further prototype query. The early photos show three square lugs on the front footplate, in lieu of lamp-irons (see photos in one of Mikkel's posts above), and additional lugs between the middle and cab splashers, evidently for spare lamps. The photos in Locomotives Illustrated 157 (pp 26-27) show three engines with short smokeboxes. GWR monogram on the tender, and two of these lugs and two engines with long smokeboxes, GREAT (crest) WESTERN, and three lugs. (All these photos show the LHS of the engine.) Is this change associated with the adoption of RCH headcodes in 1903?

 

The spare lamps in these photos are themselves intriguing. Engine No. 2312 has a lamp with a light-coloured side facing outwards, bearing the letter S, while No. 2399 sports a dark-coloured lamp with a light-coloured diamond.

 

I can't recall the details but I think there was a universal change from sockets to lamp irons in the early 1900's.  (The GWR were unique in having the lamps attach at the side).  The central hand rail knob on the smoke box also combined a lamp socket which was common with other railways.  I think such a thing is available commercially but as it is not me era I don't recall the manufacturer.

 

The different lamp configurations had various meanings on different railways and lines at different times but I think a light colour lamp was there to replicate a white light shown forward at night.  The lamp lenses also changed colour to avoid confusion with signal lamps.

 

Someone with more knowledge will probably be able to elaborate on all this. My line modelled is joint LNWR/GWR which had its own oddities for obvious reasons  

Edited July 9, 2017 by Brassey

[Mikkel]

you're doing an extended-smokebox engine

 

Well that is the question. I want to do a Dean Goods in approx. 1900-1904 condition to pull my red wagons. This means the pre-1905 livery with a Monogram rather than "Great Western". But I can't find any prototype photos where that livery is combined with an extended smokebox. This is probably because the extended smokeboxes weren't introduced until 1899 onwards, so many would not have had it yet in 1900-1904.

 

 

[Mikkel]

 

Further prototype query. The early photos show three square lugs on the front footplate, in lieu of lamp-irons (see photos in one of Mikkel's posts above), and additional lugs between the middle and cab splashers, evidently for spare lamps. The photos in Locomotives Illustrated 157 (pp 26-27) show three engines with short smokeboxes. GWR monogram on the tender, and two of these lugs and two engines with long smokeboxes, GREAT (crest) WESTERN, and three lugs. (All these photos show the LHS of the engine.) Is this change associated with the adoption of RCH headcodes in 1903?

 

The spare lamps in these photos are themselves intriguing. Engine No. 2312 has a lamp with a light-coloured side facing outwards, bearing the letter S, while No. 2399 sports a dark-coloured lamp with a light-coloured diamond.

I can't recall the details but I think there was a universal change from sockets to lamp irons in the early 1900's. 

The sockets did indeed last until ca. 1903, after which they were phased out. I had not connected that date with the RCH headcodes before, interesting.

 

Here they are on my 1854 ST, purchased from the excellent range of the BGS society, which also includes many standard gauge items and stock.

 

 

 

 

They are a bit fragile though, so I had to improvise a bit with cubes from Evergreen rods.

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Mikkel

[Miss Prism]

2487? (I can't imagine Lee Marsh doing it without the prototype evidence.)

[Mikkel]

2487? (I can't imagine Lee Marsh doing it without the prototype evidence.)

 

I have been wondering about that:

 

No 2487 was built in June 1896.

 

Here is a photo of the real loco in what must be the as-built condition. I have no date for it, but it has the S4 boiler, short smokebox and pre-1905 livery:

https://picclick.co.uk/Railway-Photo-GWR-2301-or-Dean-Goods-Class-142425980698.html#&gid=1&pid=1

 

According to the RCTS volume, No. 2487 received an S2 boiler in September 1904, with the next and last boiler change in 1909 (a B4).

 

Lee's model shows extended smokebox, S4 boiler and pre-1905 livery. If his livery is correct, he must have evidence that no. 2487 received an extended smokebox at some point between the above photo and the change to an S2 boiler in 1904.

 

Edited to clarify 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Mikkel

[Miss Prism]

Is there anything in Locomotives Illustrated 55?

[Miss Prism]

Not quite right date, but here's a front-ring domer:

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p679214033

[Compound2632]

Indian red sandboxes noted.

[Mikkel]

Not quite right date, but here's a front-ring domer:

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p679214033

 

Thanks Miss P.  I think that's a narrow footplate (if you mean 2405). I was hoping to use the Oxford Rail footplate, which we have judged to be a wide one. A narrow footplate would increase the options a good deal.

 

Although, as mentioned, that Oxford Rail footplate actually measures 30mm across, and so is about halfway between a narrow and a wide footplate type.

 

Strictly speaking I am probably getting a little too much into the details here, considering that it is not - to say the least - an exhibition model I'm building. But it's an interesting project in itself to explore a class, and a model is a great entrypoint to that I think.

[Compound2632]

But it's an interesting project in itself to explore a class, and a model is a great entrypoint to that I think.

 

Very true. I've been increasingly intrigued by the early condition of the 2301 class in the last few days! Also, I don't think the modeller of the Great Western in its classic 1930s phase or even in the ever-popular 1950s can afford to ignore this, as some of the detail differences between the early batches (platform width, front footstep shape) remained with the engines throughout - a point that as several have noted, Oxford have failed to grasp. I have to admit it: NOT ALL GREAT WESTERN ENGINES ARE THE SAME!

 

Now don't get me on the differences between, say, a Neilson Goods and a Class M (contemporaries of the Dean Goods but substantially larger machines), and how these were still apparent when the engines were rebuilt as 3Fs. Note that these engines were built in proper quantities: 100 of the former ordered from Neilsons in one go!

[Northroader]

On the headlamps question, quoting from Slinns "Great Western Way", from 1885, possibly earlier, headlamps used with white and green interchangeable lenses, the sides of lamps had white diamond on black background and black 'S' on white background on rear. They had square bases. In 1903 the modern standard headcode was adopted and the sockets on the loco replaced by brackets to which thelamps were attached by sockets on their sides. The book has an appendix giving the codes, combinations of white and green lamps in various positions at night, and unlit lamps, 'S' or diamond to the front by day. Doing this meant it was necessary to have a square base to turn the lamp round as needed. There's no mention of the three lamp code we were on about some posts ago. His information is from "Instructions as to distinctive headlights and targets" 13/5/1885.

[Brassey]

There's no mention of the three lamp code we were on about some posts ago. His information is from "Instructions as to distinctive headlights and targets" 13/5/1885.

 

That is possibly because the centre lamp over the buffer beam was not introduced until later possibly 1903 probably to do with the RCH standards introduced then.

[Brassey]

I have been wondering about that:

 

No 2487 was built in June 1896.

 

Here is a photo of the real loco in what must be the as-built condition. I have no date for it, but it has the S4 boiler, short smokebox and pre-1905 livery:

https://picclick.co.uk/Railway-Photo-GWR-2301-or-Dean-Goods-Class-142425980698.html#&gid=1&pid=1

 

According to the RCTS volume, No. 2487 received an S2 boiler in September 1904, with the next and last boiler change in 1909 (a B4).

 

Lee's model shows extended smokebox, S4 boiler and pre-1905 livery. If his livery is correct, he must have evidence that no. 2487 received an extended smokebox at some point between the above photo and the change to an S2 boiler in 1904.

 

Edited to clarify 

This combination depicted in 2487 would appear to be wrong.  It is built from a 7mm Finney kit that does not provide for the narrow smokebox (nor the S2 boiler).  In other respects it resembles the photo in as-built condition.

 

I would have thought it most likely that smokeboxes were changed at the same time as boilers

Edited July 10, 2017 by Brassey

[Brassey]

 

Well that is the question. I want to do a Dean Goods in approx. 1900-1904 condition to pull my red wagons. This means the pre-1905 livery with a Monogram rather than "Great Western". But I can't find any prototype photos where that livery is combined with an extended smokebox. This is probably because the extended smokeboxes weren't introduced until 1899 onwards, so many would not have had it yet in 1900-1904.

According to RCTS, the last 10 were reported to have been built with extended smokeboxes but they also had fluted rods!

[Compound2632]

But for example, No. 2441. The caption in Locomotives Illustrated 157 says, photo Weymouth c. 1906: S2 (dome forward) boiler, extended smokebox, plain rods, GREAT (crest) WESTERN on tender. Lot 92 (April 1893), therefore built with an S2 boiler, S4 (rear dome) boiler fitted September 1901; S2 boiler fitted June 1903. So was the smokebox extended when it received the S4 boiler or when it reverted to the S2 boiler?

[Mikkel]

I would have thought it most likely that smokeboxes were changed at the same time as boilers

 

That's an interesting idea. It would make it much easier to say when the smokeboxes were extended, because we can then look at the boiler change list.

 

Although, it is now dawning upon me that the RCTS list only mentions "boiler type changes". So if a loco was built with an S4 boiler which was then changed to another S4 boiler, that change would not appear in the list. That would also explain why 2467 in this Weymouth photo from 1905/6 has an S4 boiler (as built), but an extended smokebox. The first boiler type change on this loco recorded in RCTS was to an S2 in 1913: https://picclick.co.uk/Victorian-Edwardian-Gwr-Steam-Locomotive-No-2467-Rp-391739764052.html#&gid=1&pid=1

 

 

But for example, No. 2441. The caption in Locomotives Illustrated 157 says, photo Weymouth c. 1906: S2 (dome forward) boiler, extended smokebox, plain rods, GREAT (crest) WESTERN on tender. Lot 92 (April 1893), therefore built with an S2 boiler, S4 (rear dome) boiler fitted September 1901; S2 boiler fitted June 1903. So was the smokebox extended when it received the S4 boiler or when it reverted to the S2 boiler?

 

Good point, that complicates matters again. The RCTS seems to suggest that after the last 10 were built with extended smokeboxes they were fitted to the rest of the class "in course of time". If that was systematically done, I suppose it would have been in 1901. But who knows! 

[Mikkel]

According to RCTS, the last 10 were reported to have been built with extended smokeboxes but they also had fluted rods!

 

Yes, and if the assumption is correct that smokeboxes were only extended when boilers were changed, then a study of the RCTS list reveals that none of the 2451-2491 series that I'm looking to portray (because they have the wide footplate + plain con rods combination of the Oxford model) ever had S4 boilers, extended smokeboxes and pre-1905 loco livery at the same time.

 

Which would mean that if I want the pre-1905 livery on a loco from this series, I will have to build it with a short smokebox. Or build a new footplate of the narrow type!

 

I can hear the owners of Finney models laughing at the irrationality of this project 

[Miss Prism]

Works visits were more frequent than the recorded boiler changes, so whilst I think it is logical to assume that smokeboxes did not revert to short after they had become long, I'm not convinced that smokebox lengthening (which we don't have records of) always coincided with a boiler change or swap. I think the RCTS boiler change record denotes only when the type of boiler changed, and not swaps of the same type.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Miss Prism

[Mikkel]

 

 I think the RCTS boiler change record denotes only when the type of boiler changed, and not swaps of the same type?

 

 

Yes, I think so. Looking through the Dean Goods list the first boiler change recorded is always a new type. 

[Miss Prism]

Btw, istr 'Buffalo' (unfortunately departed from this parish) thinking that 'GREAT WESTERN' (with or without crest) started to appear c 1903.

[Compound2632]

Or build a new footplate of the narrow type!

 

I can hear the owners of Finney models laughing at the irrationality of this project 

 

Looking at photos (LI 157 again): I'm beginning to see that all engines had the valences set the same distance apart. On engines with the wider footplate, it visibly overhangs the valence more. Therefore, to give at least the impression of a narrow footplate, it needs to be shaved back so that it only just sticks out from the valence. (Query: at Derby, the term would be platform, are we using the correct Swindon terminology here?)

 

Is the Oxford platform metal or plastic?

 

The Finney kit doesn't provide for either the short smokebox or the S2 boiler - the earliest date possible is October 1898 when No. 2571 appeared from Swindon as the first engine with extended smokebox (S4 boiler, wide footplate, fluted rods). If you hear owners of the Finney kit laughing, it's at the insanity of attempting to model the Great Western in the pre-Churchward era. Ask them, if they've built the kit, if their 1935-condition Dean Goods has the right combination of footplate, valence and coupling rods for the number it's carrying.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

Stephen - it's 'footplate' for GWR.

[Craigw]

I have been following this with interest and amusement. I hope you like these photos Mikkel. From my collection,  glass negative I won on Ebay.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W