Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Brassey]

Thanks to the dangerously Westernising influence of Mikkel, bgman, Edwardian an now Miss Prism I find myself tempted by all this Dean Goodsery. I'm thinking about an engine from lots 82, 87 or 92, retaining the original short smokebox and S2 boiler in c. 1902/3, shedded in the West Midlands (ideally Wolverhampton, Worcester at a pinch) - No. 2390 has been identified as a candidate. From considerations of economy, I've thought through starting from the Mainline model, though the following list of mods apply equally or even more so to the Oxford model:

 

1. new boiler/smokebox/'piano lid' steam chest covers (including Quarryscapes' chimney, Alan Gibson 517 dome and safety valve trumpet).

2. new spectacle plate; cut down (Mainline) or replaced (Oxford) cab sides, together with roof to the tighter radius.

3. new splashers (definitely Oxford, possibly Mainline). 

4. skimmed footplate sides (7'5" width) - or possibly new footplate and valances.

5. replacement buffers.

 

I do, however, rather like the front toolboxes on both models...

 

As to the tender, Oxford's 2500 gallon one seems to be meeting with general approval. Could Mainline's 3000 gallon one be cut and shut? In either case, the top panel has to be cut off and replaced with coal rails. Quarryscapes' 2500 gallon body is an alternative solution, though it feels like buying in a solution when the whole approach should be to make the silk purse from as much of the sow's ear as possible.

 

The close reader may have noticed that I've discarded any form of locomotion...

Did the earlier batches not also have a different shape front step and more of a sweep to the cab sides.  I mention this as the owner of a Martin Finney kit which provides for these variants. (edit: oops my mistake, on checking the changes happened with engine number 2380 so my comments do not apply to 2390).

 

edit: also the Gibson 517 dome may prove too small for a Dean Goods; I currently have a 517 in the works as well as Dean Goods

Edited July 8, 2017 by Brassey

[Miss Prism]

Did the earlier batches not also have a different shape front step and more of a sweep to the cab sides.  I mention this as the owner of a Martin Finney kit which provides for these variants.

 

Yes. (But I don't think even the MF kit caters for all the cab style/height/roofrad variations.)

Edited July 8, 2017 by Miss Prism

[Brassey]

Yes. (But I don't think even the MF kit caters for all the cab style/height/roofrad variations.)

 

The MF kit has 3 different cab fronts but whether that covers all variants I am unsure

[Compound2632]

Any particular reason you have abandoned 2399?

 

 

Stefan showed what can be done with the Mainline spectacle plate. He did not change the profile though, or cut down the sides:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62553-backdating-a-mainlinehornby-dean-goods/?p=808563

 

 

In theory yes, but in practice I'm beginning to wonder...

 

DSCN3634ok.jpg

 

DSCN3630ok.jpg

 

Disregard the "steam punk" effect  and compare splashers with e.g.: https://picclick.co.uk/Railway-Photo-GWR-2301-or-Dean-Goods-Class-142425980698.html#&gid=1&pid=1

 

(apologies for image quality, they are sharper but I can't work out proper image size to avoid RMweb resizing effect)

 

According to information supplied by Edwardian, No. 2399 gained an S4 boiler in 1899; he also provided a list of boiler changes for other lot 82 engines, from which, as he highlights, Wolverhampton's No. 2390 wasn't re-boilered until November 1903. This also gives me something else to work towards - condition. She'll have to look like an engine that has been in traffic for a good long while, due for shopping, but of course well looked-after. (Did the Great Western still have single-manning in 1903?) Just the sort of engine that would be put on transfer trips to exchange traffic with the Midland or LNWR.

 

I had failed to acknowledge Stefan's pioneering work in this field, which is a great source of inspiration that I read when we first discussed this some months ago. In defence of this omission, his splendid model of No. 2441 c. 1903 is an engine newly turned out with S4 boiler and long smokebox: right period, wrong parameters for my taste! Plus of course who can ignore Wenlock's 7mm masterpiece?(S4 and long smokebox again.)

 

Your front-end views draw attention to something I'd spotted - there's twice the width of footplate in front of the smokebox on the Mainline model than the Oxford. This is difficult to check from the usual ground-level 3/4-view photos but from the Ian Beattied drawing, the narrower version seems to be correct. Where did one stand to open the smokebox door and shovel the char out? Didn't think that through, did you Mr Dean, when you designed the extended smokebox?

 

After you've dealt with the splashers, there's not going to be much left, is there? As someone commented on Stefan's build, perhaps it would be easier to build a kit! I did look up the Brassmasters ex-Finney kit (while thinking about tenders); while the round-topped boiler option is S4 I'm sure it could be built as S2 but it still only has the long smokebox option. 

 

 

 

Are they not front sand boxes on the Dean Goods? The tool boxes are on the tender.

 

Of course - I stand corrected. But I'm still coming to think that they're the only part of either the Mainline or Oxford model that could be used without modification for my project!

[Compound2632]

Did the earlier batches not also have a different shape front step and more of a sweep to the cab sides.  I mention this as the owner of a Martin Finney kit which provides for these variants. (edit: oops my mistake, on checking the changes happened with engine number 2380 so my comments do not apply to 2390).

 

edit: also the Gibson 517 dome may prove too small for a Dean Goods; I currently have a 517 in the works as well as Dean Goods

 

Yes, as a beginner to this business but learning quickly, there were three distinct sub-classes as built:

Engines built in the early 1880s - lots 61/62/63 Nos. 2301 - 2360: smaller-diameter boiler (S0?), French curve rather than dual-radius cab cut-out, second-hand Armstrong tender, curvier profile to the front step - this feature being retained throughout all subsequent re-building.

Engines built in the early 1890s - lots 82/87/92 Nos. 2381 - 2450: S2 boiler (thinner dome on front ring), standard 2500 gallon tender.

Engines built in the late 1890s - lots 99/100/104/107/108/111 Nos. 2451 - 2580: S4 boiler (classic dome on middle ring, larger grate area), wider footplate (7'8" vs. 7'5"), fluted coupling rods from lot 104 (No. 2491) onwards, extended smokebox from new for the last ten of lot 111 (Nos. 2571 - 2580).

Most of this information is in Locomotives Illustrated 157 (April-June 2005) but for me has been much clarified by the information provided by Mikkel, bgman, Edwardian and Miss Prism - all making this forum do what it does so well: improving our love and knowledge of the prototype and hence raising the standard of our modelling.

[wagonman]

Yes, as a beginner to this business but learning quickly, there were three distinct sub-classes as built:

Engines built in the early 1880s - lots 61/62/63 Nos. 2301 - 2360: smaller-diameter boiler (S0?), French curve rather than dual-radius cab cut-out, second-hand Armstrong tender, curvier profile to the front step - this feature being retained throughout all subsequent re-building.

Engines built in the early 1890s - lots 82/87/92 Nos. 2381 - 2450: S2 boiler (thinner dome on front ring), standard 2500 gallon tender.

Engines built in the late 1890s - lots 99/100/104/107/108/111 Nos. 2451 - 2580: S4 boiler (classic dome on middle ring, larger grate area), wider footplate (7'8" vs. 7'5"), fluted coupling rods from lot 104 (No. 2491) onwards, extended smokebox from new for the last ten of lot 111 (Nos. 2571 - 2580).

Most of this information is in Locomotives Illustrated 157 (April-June 2005) but for me has been much clarified by the information provided by Mikkel, bgman, Edwardian and Miss Prism - all making this forum do what it does so well: improving our love and knowledge of the prototype and hence raising the standard of our modelling.

 

 

Regarding tenders, the GWR was in the habit of swapping them around so that 2395 of the early 1890s build was running with an old Armstrong tender in c1907 (S4 boiler) instead of the 2500 gallon type.

[Compound2632]

Regarding tenders, the GWR was in the habit of swapping them around so that 2395 of the early 1890s build was running with an old Armstrong tender in c1907 (S4 boiler) instead of the 2500 gallon type.

 

But unfortunately for someone thinking of starting from the Mainline engine, probably not the Dean 3000 gallon tender?

[Mikkel]

Your front-end views draw attention to something I'd spotted - there's twice the width of footplate in front of the smokebox on the Mainline model than the Oxford. This is difficult to check from the usual ground-level 3/4-view photos but from the Ian Beattied drawing, the narrower version seems to be correct. 

 

Yes, in that respect the Oxford smokebox is better. And the Mainline smokebox is almost a short smokebox already 

 

 

After you've dealt with the splashers, there's not going to be much left, is there? As someone commented on Stefan's build, perhaps it would be easier to build a kit!

 

Not much left, no. The rearmost Mainline splashers are about 0.5 mm out from the rear wheels of the Oxford chassis. I may decide to live with that, but if not they have to be replaced as well.

 

Rationally speaking, building a kit is certainly a better option. However, there's a certain challenge to this project.

[MikeOxon]

Are they not front sand boxes on the Dean Goods? The tool boxes are on the tender.

For anyone interested, I took a photo of one of the sandboxes on the Dean Goods in Steam museum, a few years ago:

 

 

This photo also shows the hinges on the cylinder inspection cover.

 

I have represented these boxes on 4mm models, by using the ends from cable ties, as shown in http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75241-a-new-start/page-12&do=findComment&comment=1310082

 

Edited - to brighten view of front cover

Edited July 8, 2017 by MikeOxon

[Mikkel]

For anyone interested, I took a photo of one of the sandboxes on the Dean Goods in Steam museum, a few years ago:

 

 

DeanFront.jpg

 

Thanks Mike, that's useful, and your solution with the cable ties really is ingenious.

 

And a good illustration of the rivets on the splashers on 2516!

 

For comparison, the Oxford Rail front end:

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

Its best to bind with tape. Get the tape as tight as you can around it. Get it all over the tube.

 

OK:

 

 

 

If the support rods leave a tell-tale mark, why not cut your strip over-long so you can cut off the marked bits afterwards?

 

OK:

 

 

 

How about laminating several layers together, form them individually, before glueing.

 

OK:

 

 

And Voila, one new boiler:

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks so much gentlemen, your combined input created a satisfying result. RMWeb at its best!

 

One note of caution: The stickiness of the tape needs to be modified before application, by sticking and unsticking on a table surface or similar. Otherwise some of the gum may stick to the plastikard when the hot water is applied, and can be hard to remove.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Mikkel

[Damo666]

One note of caution: The stickiness of the tape needs to be modified before application, by sticking and unsticking on a table surface or similar. Otherwise some of the gum may stick to the plastikard when the hot water is applied, and can be hard to remove.

I use 'Sticky Stuff Remover' by Mykal Industrials Ltd. It's great for removing that horrible glue you get on Duct tape. Any sticker with an impervious cover may need scoring to let the stuff penetrate, or otherwise, let it soak for a while.

 

For difficult to remove stuff I'll put some pieces of kitchen towel cut to size over it, pour the Sticky Stuff remover until it's all saturated and leave it for a while.

 

[Edit: Grrrr. Why can I not upload a small *.jpg image? Cannot either drag-and-drop, nor upload as an attachment]

[Edit #2. Cannot upload a *.bmp image file either.]

Edited July 8, 2017 by Damo666

[Mikkel]

I use 'Sticky Stuff Remover' by Mykal Industrials Ltd. It's great for removing that horrible glue you get on Duct tape. Any sticker with an impervious cover may need scoring to let the stuff penetrate, or otherwise, let it soak for a while.

 

For difficult to remove stuff I'll put some pieces of kitchen towel cut to size over it, pour the Sticky Stuff remover until it's all saturated and leave it for a while.

 

[Edit: Grrrr. Why can I not upload a small *.jpg image? Cannot either drag-and-drop, nor upload as an attachment]

[Edit #2. Cannot upload a *.bmp image file either.]

 

Thanks, I've never heard of that but sounds useful - also for other work around the house when duct tape has come to the rescue!

 

The upload issue is a site-wide problem.

[Re6/6]

An alternative that l use Mikkel. 

 

https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/adhesives-and-sealants/structural-adhesives/191-adhesive-cleaner-250ml-tin-97056/p/EVO7133191G?utm_campaign=pla-Adhesives+%26+Sealants+-+&utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping-pla&utm_keyword=EVO7133191G&istCompanyId=6aa6787b-063e-4414-802d-129f235df603&istItemId=aqrxpxtii&istBid=tztx&gclid=CjwKEAjwqIfLBRCk6vH_rJq7yD0SJACG18frbA0WuF-4fWdRy6tLFwiCA2odvKesJgMeg0whCJSXhBoCwNzw_wcB

Edited July 9, 2017 by Re6/6

[Brassey]

Hi Mikkel

 

Sorry came to this late but those kits that have straight round top options have the boiler and firebox as one piece.  There is no obvious join between the two.  Would it be easier to roll this as one piece and re shape the firebox?  Peter

[Mikkel]

An alternative that l use Mikkel. 

 

https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/adhesives-and-sealants/structural-adhesives/191-adhesive-cleaner-250ml-tin-97056/p/EVO7133191G?utm_campaign=pla-Adhesives+%26+Sealants+-+&utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping-pla&utm_keyword=EVO7133191G&istCompanyId=6aa6787b-063e-4414-802d-129f235df603&istItemId=aqrxpxtii&istBid=tztx&gclid=CjwKEAjwqIfLBRCk6vH_rJq7yD0SJACG18frbA0WuF-4fWdRy6tLFwiCA2odvKesJgMeg0whCJSXhBoCwNzw_wcB

 

Thanks, for some reason it's difficult to get Evostik products here in Denmark and many online traders don't send it abroad. Regulations I suppose, although some traders seem to ignore, so where there's a will there's a way....

 

 

Hi Mikkel

 

Sorry came to this late but those kits that have straight round top options have the boiler and firebox as one piece.  There is no obvious join between the two.  Would it be easier to roll this as one piece and re shape the firebox?  Peter

 

Thanks Peter, yes that one is a bit tricky. I opted to do it in two parts because I have to accomodate the fact that the underside of the boiler is a cast part of the Oxford chassis. This means that the boiler section has to be a perfect fit to reduce the seamline as much as possible. I reckoned thatg it would be difficult to get this right *and* get the firebox shape right all in the same piece.

 

I am hoping that the lining will save the day, see eg: 

http://railphotoprints.uk/img/s/v-3/p1933994997-4.jpg

https://picclick.co.uk/Victorian-Edwardian-Gwr-Steam-Locomotive-No-2467-Rp-391739764052.html#&gid=1&pid=1

 

PS: It's a bit difficult to explain in words where I see the difficulty in doing it in one piece, but it has to do with the fact that the Plastikard has to be rolled a bit more tightly than the actual diameter required before being treated to hot water, and then afterwards laminated in several layers. No doubt it could be done in one piece, just not sure I'm up to it   

Edited July 9, 2017 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Have you established that the splashers are separate components or not? Thanks.

[Mikkel]

Have you established that the splashers are separate components or not? Thanks.

 

They are separate plastic components located with a push fit into the footplate, and easily removed. Which is convenient.

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Mikkel

[Damo666]

I use 'Sticky Stuff Remover' by Mykal Industrials Ltd. It's great for removing that horrible glue you get on Duct tape. Any sticker with an impervious cover may need scoring to let the stuff penetrate, or otherwise, let it soak for a while.

 

For difficult to remove stuff I'll put some pieces of kitchen towel cut to size over it, pour the Sticky Stuff remover until it's all saturated and leave it for a while.

 

[Edit: Grrrr. Why can I not upload a small *.jpg image? Cannot either drag-and-drop, nor upload as an attachment]

[Edit #2. Cannot upload a *.bmp image file either.]

Note that there is a site-wide issue on uploading pictures (although Mikkel has managed to upload a picture, well done).

 

So here's a link instead (other suppliers available):

Edited July 9, 2017 by Damo666

[Jol Wilkinson]

Most solvents will do the job of removing unwanted adhesive, petrol (smelly), IPA, white spirit, cigarette lighter fluid (my preferred choice as it comes in convenient dispensers). etc. Even butanone, MekPak and similar but only safe on metal surfaces. Usual safety warnings apply.

[Compound2632]

They are separate plastic components located with a push fit into the footplate, and easily removed. Which is convenient.

 

 

Hum... is there a larger-wheeled prototype for which they could be recycled?

 

Thanks - this is getting to the point where everything above the footplate barring the exquisite sandboxes is ditched! But no - you're doing an extended-smokebox engine so at least re-using that part albeit with new front.

[Compound2632]

Further prototype query. The early photos show three square lugs on the front footplate, in lieu of lamp-irons (see photos in one of Mikkel's posts above), and additional lugs between the middle and cab splashers, evidently for spare lamps. The photos in Locomotives Illustrated 157 (pp 26-27) show three engines with short smokeboxes. GWR monogram on the tender, and two of these lugs and two engines with long smokeboxes, GREAT (crest) WESTERN, and three lugs. (All these photos show the LHS of the engine.) Is this change associated with the adoption of RCH headcodes in 1903?

 

The spare lamps in these photos are themselves intriguing. Engine No. 2312 has a lamp with a light-coloured side facing outwards, bearing the letter S, while No. 2399 sports a dark-coloured lamp with a light-coloured diamond.

[MikeOxon]

I use 'Sticky Stuff Remover' by Mykal Industrials Ltd. It's great for removing that horrible glue you get on Duct tape. Any sticker with an impervious cover may need scoring to let the stuff penetrate, or otherwise, let it soak for a while.....

Note that the label on the bottle states that it not recommended for use on polystyrene (amongst other things).  It's fine on brass, though

 

Also, I notice that the extension of the smokebox on the Dean Goods seems to be indicated by the void, behind the sandbox, on my photo , above, of the engine at 'Steam'

 

And the dome on a '517' is smaller in diameter than the centrally-placed one on a Dean/Stella (S4 boiler).

 

EDITED to clarify boiler type for the larger dome, following comment by Compound 2632 (below)

Edited July 9, 2017 by MikeOxon

[Compound2632]

Sorry, another post from me, apologies for the intrusion.

 

I did a few sums on the cost of building a short-smokebox, S2-boilered, coal-rail 2500 gallon tendered Dean Goods such as No. 2390 by different routes.

1. The Brassmasters ex-Finney kit plus wheels, gearbox, motor and a Gibson 517 dome: around £200. The major mod to the kit would be to make the short smokebox.

2. The Oxford model, with Gibson dome and safety-valve trumpet and Coast Line models chimney, smokebox door and tender body: around £150. Substantial scratch-building required - everything above the engine footplate! 

3. The Mainline/Hornby model, with components per the Oxford model and new motorised engine chassis: depends how much you pay for a second-hand model! Probably more than (2) but less than (1).

And the dome on a '517' is smaller in diameter than that on a Dean/Stella.

 

Bah.

[Quarryscapes]

Triang Lord of the Isles dome works very well. 

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Quarryscapes